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walfly

Tracking down F86 Sabre info

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Any help would be appreciated.

According to discussion held two weeks ago, F86's in the Korean war would at times, drop their mostly empty fuel tank, then come around and drop the napalm.

Its sounds like it would be devastating, but, are there any accounts of this online. Either in txt or video?

Thanks.

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I never knew F-86s were intentionally used in CAS role in Korea.

Are you sure?

Quote: Even though the Yalu was now out of range, on January 14, an F-86A detachment appeared at Taegu to participate as fighter bombers to try to halt the Chinese advance. The F-86A was not very successful in the fighter-bomber role, being judged much less effective than slower types such as the F-80 and the F-84. When carrying underwing ordinance, the F-86A's range and endurance were much too low, and it could not carry a sufficiently large offensive load to make it a really effective fighter bomber. In these attacks, the underwing armament was usually limited to only a pair of 5-inch rockets.

Another quote: A total of 78 Sabres were lost in air-to-air combat, with 19 additional Sabres being lost to ground fire, and 13 to unknown causes. So the overall superiority of the Sabre over the MiG was about ten to one.

^ BS, but made "official" to boost american patriotic feelings and sence of invincibility.

This is better:

http://korean-war.com/AirWar/AircraftType-LossList.html

Read this for a change, unless you serve in USAF active duty. That might minimize your chances of promotion. Stick to the american official view.

http://www.korean-war.com/ussr.html

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Well, a person of the right age, and known by me for a while had a long conversation with me concerning the F86. He is either a decent historian from the era and/or the real deal.

He specifically mentioned that they had to go up with internal tanks near empty due to the payload. They would refuel midair and then head out and up to the border. There would be one external tank and one napalm. And if I heard him correctly it was the Chinese they were dropping these on so you can pick up the time frame a bit. Pretty much total air superiority by then, other than SAM's.

Next time I see him Ill ask him some specifics.

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Well, a person of the right age, and known by me for a while had a long conversation with me concerning the F86. He is either a decent historian from the era and/or the real deal.

He specifically mentioned that they had to go up with internal tanks near empty due to the payload. They would refuel midair and then head out and up to the border. There would be one external tank and one napalm. And if I heard him correctly it was the Chinese they were dropping these on so you can pick up the time frame a bit. Pretty much total air superiority by then, other than SAM's.

Next time I see him Ill ask him some specifics.

Neither Chinese nor Russians had any SAMs in Korea. They did not exist.

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From John Glenn,

http://www.acepilots.com/korea_glenn.html

Soon the USAF Sabres were ordered to fly ground attack missions if they were returning from unsuccessful MiG-hunting with a full load of munitions. On such a raid over Sinanju, Glenn's CO, Lt. Col. Giraudo was lost. But with Giraudo's loss, Glenn began leading two- and four- plane flights. Now he would be 'the shooter'. On July 12, 1953, he was flying with 1st Lt. Sam Young on his wing, he spotted a MiG and chased it 40 miles into Manchuria. The rules of engagement permitted the UN fliers to cross the Yalu when "in hot pursuit." Abruptly the MiG slowed to land, and Glenn opened up with his six .50s. The bullets lit up the fuselage and wing, sending up bright sparks. Flames burst out and as the MiG hit the ground, it exploded. Glenn flew low enough to see the MiG spread out over 100 yards. He rendezvoused with Young, and flew back to K-3 for an impromptu celebration.

A few days later, he got the chance to mix it up with some more MiGs when his flight of four F-86s was bounced by 16 MiGs. Soon four other Sabres joined the fray, and a WWI-style dogfight ensued, only the planes were flying at 600 MPH instead of 100 MPH. That meant a closing rate of 1200 MPH! Glenn's wingman on this day, Jerry Parker, scored some hits, but was soon hit himself. He broke off to escort Parker back to K-13. Six MiGs came after them, and Glenn's only choice was to "light up the nose," fire at them from long range, in the hope they would break off their attack. They did, and then Glenn went after them in earnest, catching up to the tail-ender, and flaming it. "The MiGs' tactics were so poor I could only imagine it was a training flight, or they were low on fuel, but we were unbelievably lucky."

Three days later, on July 22, he downed his third MiG, his last of the war. There were a few more days of bad weather, then the armistice was declared. He had flown 27 Sabre missions with the USAF 51st FIW, and earned another DFC and 8 Air Medals in Korea.

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A number of sites mention napalm as part of the armament for the F-86 so thats not an issue. Just trying to track down the drop use of the quarter full fuel tank before the napalm. (And, of course, the ability to drop them both in proximity such that its effective)

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Micbal,

After an hour of research on SAM's I thank you for the comment. I really thought they had them in Korea, so didn't question the guys' comment concerning SAM's as he presented it to me. But obviously they were not there and stand corrected.

http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/rusdabms.htm

Interesting that the ring road around Moscow was originally built to accommodate servicing their first SAM's.

Thanks again.

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Micbal,

After an hour of research on SAM's I thank you for the comment. I really thought they had them in Korea, so didn't question the guys' comment concerning SAM's as he presented it to me. But obviously they were not there and stand corrected.

http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/rusdabms.htm

Interesting that the ring road around Moscow was originally built to accommodate servicing their first SAM's.

Thanks again.

No problem. The Soviet air detachments did have a fair amount of AAA to cover the bases and the essential river crossings from China to Korea.

None of the AAA units operated outside of these areas.

Here the Soviet order of battle.

http://www.korean-war.com/ussrairorderofbattle.html

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Walfly, here some of the info you asked, quote:

Thus, on 13 May 1952 a group of F-86 fighters consisting of 12 aircraft with an interval between flights of 2 minutes provided cover for a 12-20 F-86 aircraft to dive down from 4,000 meters to drop a total of 12 254-kg high-explosive bombs on the flying field portion of the airfield. Bomb dispersion was up to 3 kilometers. The covering group was echeloned from 8,000 to 10,000 meters (see Figure 20).

http://www.korean-war.com/Russia/KoreaPoligon428-473.html

Quote:

The number and consist of the groups used for close escort depended upon the numbers and consist of the bomber and fighter-bomber groups being escorted, as well as the level of opposition from OVA fighter aviation. At the start of the war in Korea the largest groups of bombers were escorted by fighters at a ration of 1:1. With the introduction of jet fighter aircraft by the KPA and CPV the number of close escort fighters was significantly increased and on occasion approached 5 fighters for every 1 bomber or fighter-bomber and 8-12 fighters for 1 reconnaissance aircraft.

The fighters met up with the bombers or reconnaissance aircraft they were escorting near the front line or in a previously designated area or over their own airfields. When moving to the target and back the fighters kept within visual contact of the aircraft they were escorting, flying behind and above them by 2,000 to 5,000 meters, echeloned in 2-3 groups by altitude. On occasion the close escort would be deployed not only by groups, but by individual flights echeloned one after the other at intervals of 400 to 700 meters. If the escorted aircraft broke into small groups or single flights then the fighters would likewise be allocated to keep visual contact with them, following each group as assigned above and 1-2 kilometers behind them.

The close escort fighter group was divided up into an escort group and a strike group. During strikes by OVA fighters the Americans would strive to repel the initial attack with the forces of the strike group, and when necessary call in part of the forces of the strike group to reinforce the close escort group.

((( ... It is a long bookscan, but worth reading, unless you are afraid to attain some evil spirit of the enemy and his sight of the conflict. ...)))

Quote:

From April 1953 onward, when the Americans were operating in those regions that were covered by OVA fighter aviation, they used the F-86 fighter-bomber, which after dropping its bombs could then successfully turn to conduct air combat with the MiG-15bis fighter.

On occasion, with the goal of launching a surprise attack on a ground target the F-86 fighter-bombers would approach the target as part of the fighter "screen" which was composed of F-86 fighters. After that, when the F-86 fighter "screen" went into combat with the OVA fighters, they would head to attack the target. Bombing was carried out in a 30-50 degree dive from 3,000-4,000 meters.

(( ... Nothing of napalm use by F-86 ... ))

End of quoting.

I am really sorry about my lame humor, Walfly, but the US military history suffers from the same illness the Soviet did. It is all "we are the greatest, the best, the fairest and the world would be a ruin without us and only us", if you excuse me my misunderstanding.

I guess the proper works to be studied in the military academies only, but some could be declassified and published. The book from which I quote looks that way.

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THanks MicBal-

Found numerous sites that show napalm, just not a description that describes dropping the fuel tank first, then napalm.

Its definite that they carried napalm, and a version was also built to carry nuclear.

http://www.wingweb.co.uk/aircraft/F-86_Sabre_Part3.html

"Sabres operating in the ground-support role dropped roughly 8,000 tonnes (8,800 tons) of bombs and napalm and fired about 300 rockets. This was a modest quantity compared to the other aircraft assigned to the "mudfighter" role in the war.

Even as the war in Korea bogged down to its inconclusive end, North American was working on new subvariants of the F-86F. The "F-86F-35-NA" was similar to the F-86F-25, but incorporated a "Low Altitude Bombing System (LABS)" for delivery of a single 545 kilogram (1,200 pound) Mark 12 atomic bomb. LABS was used to perform targeting for a "toss bombing" attack, in which the Sabre went into a climb from low altitude, released the bomb to fly upward and then fall back down on the target, while the aircraft departed the area as fast as possible to be clear before detonation. 264 F-86F-35s were built, becoming nuclear operational in January 1954. They were deployed in NATO bases to help meet the Soviet threat to Europe."

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Madurai,

Thats what I am thinking. We are definite about SAM being bogus and this fuel, then napalm thing is not coming up anywhere. You would think somebody would have written about such an effect.

Anyway, it was fun to research. I won't pressure the guy on the issues, somebody that age is allowed their whale stories. But didnt expect him to push it that far from reality. On the other hand, he probably didn't expect me to track down the difference between a story and fact.

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