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World War 2 what ifs?

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Ever looked at the events of world war 2 and asked, what if?

I have, many times

What if allied troops where pushed back on june 6?

What if Paulus broke through to the 6th army at stalingrad?

What if Goering defeated the raf?

What if the A-bomb wasnt ready and a invasion of japan had to be done?

What if operation barbrossa never happened?

Whats yours?

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What if germany only attacked rusia?

No WWII see :o cause if he only attacked them its a war with only Russia that simple :o

What if Hitler knew what he was doing?

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What if the French were strong all across the border and repelled the German blitzkrieg?

Thats a good one so many things could have happened.

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What if the French had attacked/invaded Germany during the German invasion of Poland.

I understand only a handful of German Brigades were left to defend the west border.

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What if the French had attacked/invaded Germany during the German invasion of Poland.

I understand only a handful of German Brigades were left to defend the west border.

The French did, but it was short-lived. It was called the "Saar Offensive", part of the "Phony War".

http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1939/sep39/f09sep39.htm

"On the Western Front... French troops advance into the Warndt Forest across the German border and occupy 3 square miles of German territory. The action is widely viewed as having more propaganda than military purpose since the region, referred to by the French as "occupied Germany," is deserted, heavily mined and booby-trapped."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saar_Offensive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phony_War

I'd like to read more about it some time. I'm really curious what factors played into their decision to halt....obviously the mines and boobytraps werent much fun, but arent they mostly used to slow the enemy down, not stop them?

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The French did, but it was short-lived. It was called the "Saar Offensive", part of the "Phony War".

http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1939/sep39/f09sep39.htm

"On the Western Front... French troops advance into the Warndt Forest across the German border and occupy 3 square miles of German territory. The action is widely viewed as having more propaganda than military purpose since the region, referred to by the French as "occupied Germany," is deserted, heavily mined and booby-trapped."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saar_Offensive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phony_War

I'd like to read more about it some time. I'm really curious what factors played into their decision to halt....obviously the mines and boobytraps werent much fun, but arent they mostly used to slow the enemy down, not stop them?

BUAHHA So you are saying the french got owned by mines and traps LMAOAOAOA!

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I had a quick read of some of your sources..

I didnt realise they had started to move in force, but i do remember seeing small comments about an aborted incursion.

Ty for the info.

It seems to me they were still hoping for an appeasment result, and didnt have to balls to end the war very very promptly!

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I'd like to read more about it some time. I'm really curious what factors played into their decision to halt....obviously the mines and boobytraps werent much fun' date=' but arent they mostly used to slow the enemy down, not stop them?[/quote']

I think your quote means the French marched in, mined it, then withdrew.

The reason they didn't go further is likely due to the prevailing thought that they had insufficient strength to make an advance to support Poland in 1939. A lot of French command decision making in the 1930s was very jaded to the point of defeatist.

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Ever looked at the events of world war 2 and asked, what if?

I have, many times

What if allied troops where pushed back on june 6?

Area bombing continues, Russia takes most of Germany and the post-war becomes even more Soviet-tilted. Unconditional surrender probably would have occured post Berlin but I'm not sure if that means the Western Allies would have beaten the Soviets to control of France and the Benelux countries.

It's worth noting that there was no actual agreement on the division of Germany at the Tehran Conference in 1943 (it merely called for a Western Allied landing in 1944). The final agreement for the partition of Germany didn't occur until Yalta in early 1945. Perhaps Soviet forces could have reached Paris and presented the US and the UK with a fait accompli and set up a government with the support of French communists... and that would be a lot more difficult for the Western Allies to concede than Poland and Czechoslovakia was.

What if Goering defeated the raf?

Even in this event it's hard to conceive a German invasion in 1940. The river barges the Germans primarily had available couldn't transport artillery or tanks, so these would have been very limited in supply. Not only that, they were very slow and even with Luftwaffe superiority the Kriegsmarine had very few surface ships that could protect the convoys. It's hard to conceive of a German landing before 1941 and its also worth bearing in mind that by August 1940 British factories were churning out 3 times the amount of fighters than the German factories and unlike in May 1940 when there were only 3 aircraft factories, by September 1940 the production process was being divided up among many cities, making it hard to disrupt for German bombers. With the winter lull the RAF could have mounted a credible opposition to the Luftwaffe again by 1941.

While invasion could have been possible, it wouldn't have been a quick process and potentially could have delayed Barbarossa until 1942, by which time the Soviets would have been a lot more prepared.

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Area bombing continues, Russia takes most of Germany and the post-war becomes even more Soviet-tilted. Unconditional surrender probably would have occured post Berlin but I'm not sure if that means the Western Allies would have beaten the Soviets to control of France and the Benelux countries.

It's worth noting that there was no actual agreement on the division of Germany at the Tehran Conference in 1943 (it merely called for a Western Allied landing in 1944). The final agreement for the partition of Germany didn't occur until Yalta in early 1945. Perhaps Soviet forces could have reached Paris and presented the US and the UK with a fait accompli and set up a government with the support of French communists... and that would be a lot more difficult for the Western Allies to concede than Poland and Czechoslovakia was.

Once it was obvious that Russia was going to advance West, through central Europe, assuming the Allies were unable to get to mainland Europe, America and Britain would surely have negotiated a peace with Germany purely to prevent the Russian takeover of central Europe.

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Once it was obvious that Russia was going to advance West' date=' through central Europe, assuming the Allies were unable to get to mainland Europe, America and Britain would surely have negotiated a peace with Germany purely to prevent the Russian takeover of central Europe.[/quote']

Maybe, but that would have conflicted with the Atlantic charter and assumes that Hitler would make peace with the western allies, which I think is doubtful. Also right up until the end Roosevelt thought he could deal with Stalin... all that combined makes me think that German unconditional surrender followed by a Soviet fait accompli is the likely outcome.

Perhaps Churchill may have done a deal with German Wehrmacht leaders but I don't think he could have done much alone if Poland at Yalta is anything to go by.

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Hmm. French could never defeat Germany at the time.

And Goering was too lazy to ever defeat the RAF fully.

Read Von Luck's book, it has some good bashing of Goering in it.. from both him and Rommel. Wish I could find that book again :(

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This is always a fun topic, and one reason why WWII strategy games are so fun. One of my favorites for the PC is Norm Kroger's The Operational Art of War, I also still game with old school counter board games and 15mm miniatures, anyway I digress...

What if the Winter of '41-'42 wasn't the worst in 100 years?

What if Hitler didn't stop using the FJ as they were intended after Crete?

What if Hitler didn't let the Russians fortify for a few months by delaying the Kursk offensive, then attack anyway?

What if Ike told Monty to shove his Market-Garden plan up his keyster?

What if the Germans gave the Finns some more hardware and support? Personally I think they could have taken Murmansk and Leningrad with the Germans. The Germans virtually had an open road into Leningrad, having defeated the outer defenses, until the OKH decided to start losing the war (not that I'm complaining - just would have been nice for the Axis to beat up on the Soviets some more, would have saved a lot of lives down the road)

Of course the biggest one is what if they just killed Hitler and all his closest allies early on, sued for peace in the West and beat the commies back to the Urals?:)

What if we lost Midway or Guadalcanal?

What if the carriers were at Pearl Harbor, too?

Anyway, could go on...

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What if Italy had discovered the oil in Libya in the early 30s?

What if Italian industry had had more capacity/better production capability?

What if Czechoslovakia had fought for the Sudetenland?

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Hmm. French could never defeat Germany at the time.

Not true. The Blitzkrieg offensive was a huge gamble by the Germans. If the French would have stopped them in any one spot the Germans would have had to slow down which wouldn't have ended well for the Germans. It would have allowed for the French to regroup and the Blitzkrieg would have failed.

If the French would have been able to counter attack the Germans earlier in the war they would have pushed Germany back. I doubt they would have defeated the Germans fully but once the lines would have stabilized the Germans would have been fighting a WWI style war again which is not what their vehicles at the time were capable of doing.

This would also allow the British to reorganize and put more forces in France. With the British help the Germans wouldn't stand a chance and once the British and French forces would have been entering Germany the Soviets would seize the opportunity and invade the rest of Poland and Germany would be squeezed like it was later in the war.

This time though I doubt the Soviets would have stopped in Berlin they would have kept on going all the way to the French and British lines.

Another what if that most don't think about is what if the Germans would have captured the Suez Canal and Malta?

What if the Germans would have been able to take the southern oil fields from the Russians and meet up with the Japanese in western Asia. If that would have happened the Germans and Japanese would have been able to cut off the Russians from help from the US. I doubt the Japanese would attack the US then since they would have the oil fields in northern Russia.

Another what if. What if the U.S. didn't supply arms to China? The Japanese never would have attacked at Pearl Harbor. Also what if the Japanese would have invaded Hawaii and captured it?

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What if hitler didnt stop he's forces from destroying the BEF at dunk?

What if stauffenberg's plan succseeded?

What if FDR didnt empose a Trade embargo on japan?

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What if a certain ME-108 containing the plans for the original invasion of France didn't get lost and crash land in Belgium, forcing Germany to postpone the invasion and come up with a new plan (that was far better)?

What if Klink had discovered the tunnel beneath the barracks?

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From what I've read, had Stauffenberg's bomb succeeded, the Germans would have sued for peace with the Western powers and gone all hands to the Eastern front

But as mentioned whether that peace would have been agreed is debatable.

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i heard the war would have ended a year earlier thus saving 10million lives.

10 million lives lost all because of a wooden leg on a table...

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What if Hitler had never attacked Russia?

What if a Japanese submarine had gotten lost while looking for Hollywood in '41?

--or--

What if Schultz knew something?

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Well allied hated rusia way more than germany, cause hittler was a madman but at least not communist. taking that into acount, if D-day fail im seeing an aliance agaisnt stalin.

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Well allied hated rusia way more than germany, cause hittler was a madman but at least not communist. taking that into acount, if D-day fail im seeing an aliance agaisnt stalin.
Casablanca spelled out the desire for unconditional surrender of the Axis powers. It's very unlikely that the West (especially war-weary Britain) would align with a crumbling Germany (bearing in mind that the entire Eastern front almost collapsed with the annihilation of Army Group Centre during Operation Bagration that month) in order to war against the Soviets. It's just unthinkable and makes little sense in the realpolitik world of late 1944/1945.

It's the same reason I don't think a leadership change helps much after the July 20th plot. It may have ended the war quicker, but Operation Bagration started 2 days later, and Operation Cobra 5 days later. It's difficult to imagine the leadership being set up and peace negotiations progressed enough before these two massive German defeats. It could even be argued that a leadership paralysis and potential infighting within OKW or the SS actually makes them worse.

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