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World War 2 what ifs?

44 posts in this topic

Not true. The Blitzkrieg offensive was a huge gamble by the Germans. If the French would have stopped them in any one spot the Germans would have had to slow down which wouldn't have ended well for the Germans. It would have allowed for the French to regroup and the Blitzkrieg would have failed.

If the French would have been able to counter attack the Germans earlier in the war they would have pushed Germany back. I doubt they would have defeated the Germans fully but once the lines would have stabilized the Germans would have been fighting a WWI style war again which is not what their vehicles at the time were capable of doing.

This would also allow the British to reorganize and put more forces in France. With the British help the Germans wouldn't stand a chance and once the British and French forces would have been entering Germany the Soviets would seize the opportunity and invade the rest of Poland and Germany would be squeezed like it was later in the war.

This time though I doubt the Soviets would have stopped in Berlin they would have kept on going all the way to the French and British lines.

Another what if that most don't think about is what if the Germans would have captured the Suez Canal and Malta?

What if the Germans would have been able to take the southern oil fields from the Russians and meet up with the Japanese in western Asia. If that would have happened the Germans and Japanese would have been able to cut off the Russians from help from the US. I doubt the Japanese would attack the US then since they would have the oil fields in northern Russia.

Another what if. What if the U.S. didn't supply arms to China? The Japanese never would have attacked at Pearl Harbor. Also what if the Japanese would have invaded Hawaii and captured it?

-The BEF was not operational until the very end of 1939

-War production had not begun yet and the only solution for France would have been to invade Germany in less than 3 three months living on the pre-war ammunition stocks. Which it couldn't achieve due to its doctrine which was based on pounding the enemy with tons of steel and then move.

-Poland was virtually defeated after 2 weeks of fighting. That would have given the Allies 2 weeks to the Allies to reach the heart of Germany. Germany, OTOH, could afford attacking Poland without a fully mobilized military potential.

-The Saar operation were nothing like a preparation for an invasion of Germany. Thinking of Saar as a basis for an invasion is foolish since there are a lot of easily defendable obstacles behind it, to the North. The easiest way to invade Germany is from the Low Countries. The French plans for an invasion of Germany were planned for 1941 once the army would have completed its equipments.

-The military reason for Munich was that the FAF was simply too weak against the Luftwaffe. It was still the case in 1939 and even if the things got better in 1940, the Germans still had an overwhelming air superiority. Just like the Germans in 1940 could not invade Britain because of their lack of air superiority, the Allies found themselves in the same situation in 1939

-The industrial mobilization of September 1939-May 1940 gave such a boost to the French capabilities that was not only it gave at least the Allies a numerical superiority on land, but on the long term it was the way war would be won. The Allies didn't wait for the US or USSR to beat Germany on the production front. France doubled its AFV figures during the Phoney War, unlike Germany.

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What if the footbridge across the dam near Dinant had not remained undestroyed for Rommel's recon battalion to find and exploit?

What if Corap (9th Army, Sedan to Namur) had been aggressive and effective at preparing his forces for the possibility of being attacked, and for maintaining effective communications and conducting effective counterattacks on a modern-war timescale?

What if Huntzinger (2nd Army, Sedan southward) and his staff had grasped the Sedan situation, and 2nd DCR and infantry divisions had driven hard into Guderian's flank and re-taken control of the Sedan high ground, cutting off the German advance units to the west?

What if 1st DCR had good intelligence and had directly engaged Rommel's tank force and destroyed it, had routed 7th Panzer's other elements, and had re-taken the Dinant bridgehead?

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What if the bridge at remagen was destroyed?

What if the germans broke through the lines at the ardenne and got to antwerp?

what if the the british army succesfully held the bridge at arhem and the tanks got thru?

what if the taxi that hit winston churchil in new york in 1930 killed him!! (a tad ot :o)

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-The BEF was not operational until the very end of 1939

-War production had not begun yet and the only solution for France would have been to invade Germany in less than 3 three months living on the pre-war ammunition stocks. Which it couldn't achieve due to its doctrine which was based on pounding the enemy with tons of steel and then move.

-Poland was virtually defeated after 2 weeks of fighting. That would have given the Allies 2 weeks to the Allies to reach the heart of Germany. Germany, OTOH, could afford attacking Poland without a fully mobilized military potential.

-The Saar operation were nothing like a preparation for an invasion of Germany. Thinking of Saar as a basis for an invasion is foolish since there are a lot of easily defendable obstacles behind it, to the North. The easiest way to invade Germany is from the Low Countries. The French plans for an invasion of Germany were planned for 1941 once the army would have completed its equipments.

-The military reason for Munich was that the FAF was simply too weak against the Luftwaffe. It was still the case in 1939 and even if the things got better in 1940, the Germans still had an overwhelming air superiority. Just like the Germans in 1940 could not invade Britain because of their lack of air superiority, the Allies found themselves in the same situation in 1939

-The industrial mobilization of September 1939-May 1940 gave such a boost to the French capabilities that was not only it gave at least the Allies a numerical superiority on land, but on the long term it was the way war would be won. The Allies didn't wait for the US or USSR to beat Germany on the production front. France doubled its AFV figures during the Phoney War, unlike Germany.

I was talking about the French counter attacking at Sedan and Dinant. I still don't get why the French didn't fallback and reorganized their forces unless it was more of a political game than what most know about.

If the French would have been able to stop the Germans at all at one point the French would have been out producing the Germans in terms of ground units but they would still be behind in the air but I'm guessing that the British would be supplying most of the air power with the Americans selling more and producing more units to France and the British.

Actually if the French would have held the line in the beginning of the war the US at the time wouldn't have supplied the Russians with any sort of military weapons. I believe the US would have actually given its weapons to the Japanese in order to defeat the Russians. Lots of possibilities really.

I know for a fact though no matter what would have happened the 2nd world war wouldn't have ended any sooner than what it really did.

Another what if. What if FDR wasn't elected as president?

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What if Hitler was killed in WWI???

****er put us back 1000 years and not to mention our loved ones who we will never know. :mad:

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What if Germany used POWs more effectively? (instead of just starving them to death etc)

What if there was no Holocaust and Jews were not targets?

What if Germany moved to a total war economy?

And and and....

What if Germany didn't try for an actual navy? (remember the amount of materiel required to build just the pocket battleships, even if they are well, pocket battleships lol).

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What if Germany didn't try for an actual navy? (remember the amount of materiel required to build just the pocket battleships, even if they are well, pocket battleships lol).

On the sort of same topic, what if Hitler didn't give a damn about all those vegenance weapons and stuff like the Ratte, Maus etc.

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I was talking about the French counter attacking at Sedan and Dinant. I still don't get why the French didn't fallback and reorganized their forces unless it was more of a political game than what most know about.

If the French would have been able to stop the Germans at all at one point the French would have been out producing the Germans in terms of ground units but they would still be behind in the air but I'm guessing that the British would be supplying most of the air power with the Americans selling more and producing more units to France and the British.

Actually if the French would have held the line in the beginning of the war the US at the time wouldn't have supplied the Russians with any sort of military weapons. I believe the US would have actually given its weapons to the Japanese in order to defeat the Russians. Lots of possibilities really.

I know for a fact though no matter what would have happened the 2nd world war wouldn't have ended any sooner than what it really did.

Another what if. What if FDR wasn't elected as president?

Meh doubtful that america would have supplied any sort of arms to japanese, after all they were already in the worlds bad books for the rape of china starting in 1937, FDR emposing a trade embargo showed he didnt have much love for the japanese and im pretty sure the higher powers knew of the evil doings at unit 731, besides i dont think america and russia had that bad of a realtion ship prior ww2 did they? idk.

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I still don't get why the French didn't fallback and reorganized their forces unless it was more of a political game than what most know about.

I don't think the French population had recovered from WWI yet, mentally.

The high command was incompetent beyond comprehension, there was just no leadership at all. Morale was pretty much in the toilet.

Here's a good quote from a book I'm on now from one of the BEF Corps commanders, General Alan Brooke, after watching a parade of French soldiers;

"Men unshaven, horses ungroomed, clothes and saddlery that did not fit, vehicles dirty, and complete lack of pride in themselves or their units. What shook me the most, however, was the look in the men's faces, disgruntled and insubordinate, and although ordered to give 'Eyes Left,' hardly man bothered to do so."

Accounts like that were pretty common. Piss poor leadership...

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I was talking about the French counter attacking at Sedan and Dinant. I still don't get why the French didn't fallback and reorganized their forces unless it was more of a political game than what most know about.

Why fallback? The DLC's which screened the Meuse had already fallen back behind the river, and the 2nd rate units which faced the main German effort disintegrated. That's the principle of a rupture. A big hole in the frontline, without any unit to fill the gap. The North & South extremities managed to fall back in good order but the center evaporated.

A few local counter attacks to destroy the German bridgeheads on the West bank were launched and could have delayed the enemy, but due to the disorganization (crowds of refugies blocking the roads as well as the debris of the dislocated units), they were launched too late and the coordination between tanks and infantry were close to zero. Like these R 35 which captured a few hundreds of men of the Grossdeutschland regiment (IIRC) who surrendered at their sight but who had to release them because the infantry didn't follow them and occupied the reconquered territory.

The only solution to prevent an exploitation of the rupture of the front on the Meuse would have been to have an army in reserve. Like it was the case until early 1940, when the VIIth was kept in reserve not too far. Unfortunately, it was decided to place it to the North, hoping that'd help to keep the Dutch in the war. It was mainly composed of first rate motorized units, and couple with the 2 ADs kept in reserve, they'd have been able to stop the Germans.

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There was a book about this... I read it years ago I think I still have it. Not sure on the title though...

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What if... Hitler didn't declare war on America.

More than possible that America would have just fought the war against Japan and stayed out of active combat in Europe.

Hitlers decision solved Rosevelts problem & with Churchill's insisting led to a Europe 1st policy.

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I would say American supplies were contributing to the war effort, but as for Germany declaring war, I don't think it's an issue. By 1944, the Red Army was already rolling with initiative.

So, with that, I think if the Germans didn't declare war, it was still undeclared, and Europe would have been Red.

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The japanese would not have invaded Hawaii in 1941. They simply didn't have the excess capability considering the entire point was the southern advance (the NEI and the oil there).

Also, if you look at the very successful japanese advance into Malaya, Indonesia, the Philippines, the NEI, etc, you'll see a pattern. They ALWAYS set up airfields within range FIRST. Always. Thailand/Indochina—>Malaya. Malaya—>Singapore/Indonesia. Formosa—>Philippines. Palau—>Philippines. They set up seaplane/floatplane bases in other areas, and only in very limited cases did they rely entirely on carrier airpower (small targets). They even secured seaplanes based en route to Port Moresby on the eve of the Battle of the Coral Sea.

Given this, they'd have taken Midway first, further complicating their logistics (look at the trouble they had with Wake, had our CV force not turned back due to the "situation is in doubt" radio message, they would likely have been turned back the 2d time as well at Wake).

Regardless, they also didn't have the excess refueling capability to keep the Kido Butai on station for the duration of an invasion that far from home (they'd need ammo, too, as the CVs would burn through their bomb and torpedo stores quickly given the constant action they'd be seeing).

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tater, did the japanese ever think of invading the actual USA? Outside of perhaps Alaska, but seriously, it would be hard to imagine that the Japanese ever really planned a strike at the USA itself.

Hawaii, I could imagine so, because it is still middle-ish of the pacific ocean, but USA? Hmmm....

One thing you can say about the Japanese, they sure thought very well far in advance.

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I would say American supplies were contributing to the war effort' date=' but as for Germany declaring war, I don't think it's an issue. By 1944, the Red Army was already rolling with initiative.[/quote']

It's worth recalling that the Axis economies outproduced the UK/USSR in GDP terms right up until mid-1943. Additionally, Soviet Lend-Lease deliveries were utterly cruicial to its war effort. Over half its aviation fuel, 80% of its trains and rail cars (yes, 4/5ths), 40% of copper ore and 33% of explosives, 55% of aluminium, and 30% of machine tools.

The trains are a wonderful example. In the 2 years before Barbarossa the Soviet Union produced 1600 locomotives. Lend-Lease allowed that production to drop to a grand total of nine in 1942, and 82 over the remaining 3 years of war. Without delivery of critical lend-lease objects, the Soviet Union struggles to turn its factory production and manpower over to war materiel.

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I would say American supplies were contributing to the war effort, but as for Germany declaring war, I don't think it's an issue. By 1944, the Red Army was already rolling with initiative.

So, with that, I think if the Germans didn't declare war, it was still undeclared, and Europe would have been Red.

er, what has 1944 got to do with it? Germany declaration of war on America was of course in 1941!

And although America was already involved with lend-lease, you have to take out the effect their bomber forces & naval units had on the German war effort. Add to that, no Torch landing in Africa, and suddenly things don't look quite as bad for Germany.

Of course, the chances are that some other incident, probably in the Atlantic would have given America enough incentive to declare war on Germany anyway.

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What if that sniper killed Hitler?

Depends if it was during or before the outbreak of the war. If it was before the war I imagine it would have had quite and effect, if it was during I reckon that the German war machine would continue.

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