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saronin

Air Suicide Fixes

28 posts in this topic

I keep seeing people complain about planes suicide bombing in game. I believe this to be an issue of coding rather than poor pilots. For the first several years of this game I rarely saw this behavior when the bombs actually worked. I too hate this behavior because it is gamey and poor. What I propose below I believe will stop it to some degree and give us a more realistic air game. It is my belief that none of these fixes can be applied without the others without causing detrimental effects to the game. All the below fixes work in concert with one another.

1. Conduct a bomb audit and bring the damage model back to a realistic level of damage. Show me where a 500 - 550lb bomb lands next to a Sherman, Churchill, or Tiger and the crew just laughs it off with no damage. The precision that it takes to get a tank kill is driving pilots to engage in these BS tactics.

2. Limit the amount of Air Brigades that can be located in a given airfield. We'll go ahead and say that it simulates lack of ramp space to park all these planes.

3. Greatly increase the amount of time it takes to move air flags. Make it so it takes a couple hours or so once a command is given for movement.

4. Look at adjusting the amount of bombers in the brigades if necessary.

2 and 3 are on this list for a reason. If you simply increase the damage bombs can do tankers will be miserable. It will kill the tank game. 2 and 3 are an attempt to limit air supply to counteract the effect of increased bomb damage. Air supply will drain quickly in close air fields. This will force pilots to fly from further out. However, the trade off will be that bombs that actually work when pilots reach their target. 4 is an extension of 2 and 3 and is a suggestion to make sure the units mean something. There should not be so many of them that they are disposable. Pilots should be encouraged to actually RTB and rearm the aircraft. 2, 3, and 4 are really to make the change fair for the tankers.

Thoughts/suggestions?

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I agree with the bomb damage assessment. Bombs are not near powerful enough. Adjusting this will help a great deal.

As far as pilots doing A or B that intentionally causes the aircraft to crash, this is griefing plain and simple. No politically correct answer here. It is griefing and it is against the rules of this game. I know several players who have been suspended or banned because of griefing. The punishment for what these guys are doing has been established and we can not simply allow these people to continue to intentionally cause the loss of an aircraft that otherwise could have been RTB'd.

If you drop your bombs and then bail out, that is griefing. If you dive in on a tank and intentionally "kamikaze" an aircraft, this is griefing. All you have to do is to look through the forums and reread the AAR's where people brag about the kamikaze they did and got a kill. That is what caused the increase of the griefing we see now, as others read these clowns who brag about griefing and get away with it. Apply the rules of the game and end the griefing. This will stop the practice of bailout because the flight is too long, kamikaze, etc.

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I agree with the bomb damage assessment. Bombs are not near powerful enough. Adjusting this will help a great deal.

As far as pilots doing A or B that intentionally causes the aircraft to crash, this is griefing plain and simple. No politically correct answer here. It is griefing and it is against the rules of this game. I know several players who have been suspended or banned because of griefing. The punishment for what these guys are doing has been established and we can not simply allow these people to continue to intentionally cause the loss of an aircraft that otherwise could have been RTB'd.

If you drop your bombs and then bail out, that is griefing. If you dive in on a tank and intentionally "kamikaze" an aircraft, this is griefing. All you have to do is to look through the forums and reread the AAR's where people brag about the kamikaze they did and got a kill. That is what caused the increase of the griefing we see now, as others read these clowns who brag about griefing and get away with it. Apply the rules of the game and end the griefing. This will stop the practice of bailout because the flight is too long, kamikaze, etc.

Methinks you doth protest too much and your last paragraph is just plain wrong (and histrionics to boot). Axis pilots are going kamikaze for a reason, against Allied medium and heavy tanks and its not that load of bovine scatology you put out in your last paragraph.

There is no way the Axis will support increasing bomb damage without having some additional check on Allied bombers and their magic fairy DB7s and Havocs.

VR

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I'm rather skeptical to trying to fix suiciding with higher bomb damage. If you go for that one tank kill, you probably aren't a pilot to begin with but a frustrated tanker. Getting accurate hits won't be easy no matter what the bomb damage will be.

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I would also be careful about accusing folks of intentionally 'griefing'.

Consider that we have a LOT of folks who want to fly...who PAY to fly... yet who don't have a ton of time... So say they have about a half an hour or so to kill and they log in and want to do a bombing run... they fly 20 minutes to the target and they drop their eggs... they turn around to head home and realize that they don't have time to fly back... so they bail. Similarly, if they have an hour and want to make a second run but would not be able to if they take 20 -30 minutes to fly back and get a new plane. Do we really ban them as griefers?

I understand how experienced pilots are looking at this. I know it's bad form...I know it affects supply...but are we seriously going to consider penalizing players who want to play the air game, simply because they are not dedicated enough to spend the time to fly back when missions are over? The problem is that this IS a game and that a lot of newer players will see it that way and we have to expect that some will not be willing to go through the process of flying there and back if they know they can simply bail out and grab a new plane. This is likely to be common when we release on Steam.

Now if we see people intentionally suiciding in a plane for no reason, that's a different story...

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While playing Allied for the last campaign and a quarter, I found that I died a LOT to suicide bombing by Stukas, and have no issue with it.

The truth here is that the Stuka has ONE 250kg bomb, and the 110 has two. Couple that with the crappy HE model, where you have to hit a tank on the engine to do any real damage, and well... It's just using the game mechanics "as designed" to get a tank out of the picture for your ground troops.

Gaming the game? That's a CRS problem, not a playerbase problem. If a 250kg bomb can't incapacitate a tank when landing within a meter of a tank's sides or rear, then the game has an issue that needs to be fixed.

Let's add to this that the DB7 and Havoc have plenty more bombs to drop and can, (and do,) make multiple runs at tanks, and statistically higher tank kills than the Axis as a result.

sure, not everyone can drop bombs well, and it takes great skill, but really... there are more chances there.

I'd love to see the HE model audited and fixed, and not just for bombing tanks... anyone who has ever used ANY ATG in this game has shot the ground next to an EI who was plnking them from 200M and has seen the shells burst next to that player, only to see them run along like nothing happened. You shouldn't have to hit a man in the chest with a 37MM HE round to kill him.

amiright?

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The best way to fix bomber suiciding is to not process a kill if the player dropping the bomb dies within a few hundred milliseconds of the kill.

That time would be set per client processing requirements. Maybe it could be significantly shorter than several hundred milliseconds. It wouldn't have to be very long.

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The guys doing the suiciding are not regular pilots....they are butthurt punks who couldnt kill the enemy on the ground so they grief kamikaze in planes....if they had an ounce of skill they would not be griefing equipment......if i saw a squaddie doing that he would be gone

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Methinks you doth protest too much and your last paragraph is just plain wrong (and histrionics to boot). Axis pilots are going kamikaze for a reason, against Allied medium and heavy tanks and its not that load of bovine scatology you put out in your last paragraph.

There is no way the Axis will support increasing bomb damage without having some additional check on Allied bombers and their magic fairy DB7s and Havocs.

VR

Are you supporting kamikaze bombing?

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Simple fixes, requiring no changes to the game, thus costing nothing.

1. Learn to shoot an AA gun properly.

2. Moving targets are harder to hit, that being said, MOVE!

Suicide diving a bomb onto the target is nothing more than using the Dr. Strangelove tactic all the way to the target, so have fun in game.

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Just as a reminder to the current Rats. CRS has in the past acknowledged the fact that near misses on heavy tanks do not result in realistic damage. See post below.

http://discussions.playnet.com/showthread.php?p=4986193

One possible solution to correct this is to create a blast radius for large bombs that result in an instant kill provided there is no cover (berm etc.) between the tank and the bomb impact site. This could simulate the "crater" effect that DOC is talking about in his post.

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While playing Allied for the last campaign and a quarter, I found that I died a LOT to suicide bombing by Stukas, and have no issue with it.

The truth here is that the Stuka has ONE 250kg bomb, and the 110 has two. Couple that with the crappy HE model, where you have to hit a tank on the engine to do any real damage, and well... It's just using the game mechanics "as designed" to get a tank out of the picture for your ground troops.

Gaming the game? That's a CRS problem, not a playerbase problem. If a 250kg bomb can't incapacitate a tank when landing within a meter of a tank's sides or rear, then the game has an issue that needs to be fixed.

Let's add to this that the DB7 and Havoc have plenty more bombs to drop and can, (and do,) make multiple runs at tanks, and statistically higher tank kills than the Axis as a result.

sure, not everyone can drop bombs well, and it takes great skill, but really... there are more chances there.

I'd love to see the HE model audited and fixed, and not just for bombing tanks... anyone who has ever used ANY ATG in this game has shot the ground next to an EI who was plnking them from 200M and has seen the shells burst next to that player, only to see them run along like nothing happened. You shouldn't have to hit a man in the chest with a 37MM HE round to kill him.

amiright?

HE has already been boosted lately... Just saying

Edited by Lob12

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Zero points for the mission, no registered kills, on an intentional suicide. I imagine there is a way to differentiate, most times. Check altitude, and stick input. No pull up, no points.

Then the satisfaction goes away, and you are left with the true griefers, who you can't stop anyway, and are in a very small minority.

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Don't talk to it, it'll go away!

Ya, like this....

NcKlDMYnmug

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HE has already been boosted lately... Just saying

Boosted, maybe... but still so very broken.

There is no reason a shell exploding on a plane's cockpit shouldn't kill the pilot.

No reason a 20, 25, 40, 75 or 88MM HE shell shouldn't fling a dead EI away when it blows up right next to them.

Only, it doesn't.

They keep running and then shoot you with their rifle.

Still broken, if more powerful.

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Try to aim better then.

I don't feel like explaining why HE shells are not (and should not be) as strong as RL.

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lol necro post. 

Anyway, if you fix bombs you have to have better AA, and I'm not talking about the SPAA we're getting. 

You need to have multi barreled stuff. Bofors are fine for some people, but the majority of people can't hit anything with it. You give people multi barreled AA, even towed stuff, and they will be able to hit stuff with it because it will have a much higher rate of fire and will be throwing out many more rounds. 

You give the axis quad 20mm AA and the allies quad 50 cals and you will stop the lawn mowing. 

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7 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

lol necro post. 

Anyway, if you fix bombs you have to have better AA, and I'm not talking about the SPAA we're getting. 

You need to have multi barreled stuff. Bofors are fine for some people, but the majority of people can't hit anything with it. You give people multi barreled AA, even towed stuff, and they will be able to hit stuff with it because it will have a much higher rate of fire and will be throwing out many more rounds. 

You give the axis quad 20mm AA and the allies quad 50 cals and you will stop the lawn mowing. 

Agreed. I do respect the fact that CRS is finally at least addressing SPAA. It's something anyway. Hopefully better AA for each tier will follow. 

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3 minutes ago, saronin said:

Agreed. I do respect the fact that CRS is finally at least addressing SPAA. It's something anyway. Hopefully better AA for each tier will follow. 

Absolutely, don't get me wrong, I love the fact that we're getting SPAA, any type is welcomed. 

Hopefully they can start releasing new vehicles every 4 months or so now. I think the most needed things are the multi barreled SPAA and then some new bombers. A heavier bomber for Allies and a faster bomber for the Axis.  

 

People will cry "NAVY", but until the navy game gets something more to do than playing in the Zees for about a day, it's a waste of resources. 

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37 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

Absolutely, don't get me wrong, I love the fact that we're getting SPAA, any type is welcomed. 

Hopefully they can start releasing new vehicles every 4 months or so now. I think the most needed things are the multi barreled SPAA and then some new bombers. A heavier bomber for Allies and a faster bomber for the Axis.  

 

People will cry "NAVY", but until the navy game gets something more to do than playing in the Zees for about a day, it's a waste of resources. 

Visible supply in the form of trains and ships in the channel. It would give a new focus to the air game and give the navy an actual game. 

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*self proclamed suicide bomber*

if my stuka takes a single AAA hit it's as good as dead (if not already), if it's hit once before the breaking point i won't even bother pulling up. if i can get a second pass after getting hit might as well complete the mission.

the 110 & 111 are insanely fragile too, they get double winged/de-tailed/exploded form 50 bb's...

 

 

1 hour ago, Mosizlak said:

You give the axis quad 20mm AA and the allies quad 50 cals and you will stop the lawn mowing.

everyone has this imaginary issue with AAA camping the inf and completely destroying the core gameplay, even worse than the RPATS vs armor.

they turned it into a pandora's box that will make everyone but the AAA guys unsub...

Edited by major0noob

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Yeah, really lol. 

Whats the difference between a regular tank camping an infantry spawn point and a mobile AA gun? Nothing, you're still dead. 

 

I'd rather have the SPAA camping me because I could probably get a kill shot on it with a sniper, where as good luck with that when a real tank is camping you. 

 

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Only way you are going to fix this is:

1. Make bombs not release under a certain altitude...I would go 1k Alt. (considering ground units can not camouflage themselves like they did in WW2)

2. Turn up visibility where pilots don't have to fly at tree tops to have stuff render on the ground. (I seriously have to fly insane low to see anything in game and is usually why I don't bother with ground stuff)

3. Make NON dive bombers not be able to be dive bombers and make their bombs not release above a 10 degree dive (considering we do not have wing stress in game that would fix this issue). Bomb sights need to have a purpose in the game. 

4. Turn up bomb damage again, so you do not have to have direct hits on tanks. (considering how you can no longer drop at low levels if #1 is implemented)

5. BF110 C4B in early tier for Germans...notice C4B not FB.

Edited by nozlen

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