dragoz

Garrisons

15 posts in this topic

The idea is to add a simple garrison to every city that did not have a brigade in it. The brigade should be simple, 50 rifles, 50 smgs, 10 eng, 25 trucks, 5 small AAA, and two tankettes, such as 232, IIc, Vickers, or Panards.

What is this going to do?

It will eliminate any restrictions on AO placement.

It will eliminate massiv over pop unopposed break outs.

It will always allow a player the opportunity to spawn in and defend at the very least.

You could go one step further and eliminate the need for AOs.

Then every one would be able to spawn in wherever and when ever to play.

It would open the whole map up to play.

The entire line would be in flux.

HC would be able to move brigades and direct the main heart of the offense while allowing over all map movement and control.

It would also allow an under pop side to affect other sections of the map in meaningful ways. Making play for all places fun and exciting at all times.

Imagine the possibilities. Paras would very meaningful and important. Navy would be key units along rivers and in coastal areas.

Always having the possibility of action in every location on the map would help a lot.

HC would still be a very important, but the burden of all game play hinging on HC alone would be relieved.

With the current FRU system this makes the new garrison system even more useful.

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All advantage. But I would go further. Remove that TOEs system that was brought in 2007. Past due.

Honestly, we should return to town garrisons supplies. Was more popular, less burn out in HCs, more interdiction, more squad plays and more fun for everyone. When you killed an unit, that meant something. TZ3 no pop caps had lower effects on campaign state that it has right now.

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Heh. What's old is new again.

Edited by jwilly

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your quantity of trucks is a bit much. Drop it to 5 max.

Look at how many inf you have (110), so you dont need 25 trucks.

As for SMG, that is every other person has an SMG. Less SMG and

put 15 semi auto in.

Rifle .................... 50

Semi auto Rifle ..... 15

SMG .................... 10

ATR ...................... 5

SNIPER ................. 3

ENG ...................... 5

Total ..................... 88

TRUCKS ................. 5

AAA (20-25mm) ...... 5

Scout Armor ........... 2

This should be added too. **Ammo resupply areas would be within 5m of Depots, Barracks and Veh. Bays**

You shouldnt have to despawn and come back to get ammo. Yes I know

Rifle Guy has ammo, but to get them to drop it off is a pain. :)

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I was basing the numbers roughly on a standard German Garrison during the European occupation.

The trucks could easily be dropped to 10. In game trucks are required for fru placement, and defensive frus are key to effectively defending a town.

SMGs and standard rifles were the norm. They were usually the older model SMGs as well, ditto for the rifles, and both British and German Garrisons were roughly equipped with smgs preferentially. Roughly. In game, the SMG is by and far the most effective CP clearing unit. Therefore, I have chosen parity with rifles.

ATRs and Snipers would almost certainly have not been available in a Garrison. However, in game terms, you are right. Some anti armour would be required. ATRs are a good choice, perhaps ATGs as well.

I also agree with the resupply. Returning to the spawn point should provide ammo. So CP Spawns would resupply everything, even the tanks. Same rules as being by a fru or truck. Just depots as well. Good idea.

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If I understand this...going solely to Garrison supply would remove the brigade system and make HC unnecessary.

And the suggestion is also to remove AOs...

I wasn't around in the old days... but wouldn't this pretty much kill of the majority of coordination, and make it every man for himself?

And wouldn't an open map make the OP side that much more able to run rings around the lowpop side? I am imaging a 20-5 situation where the enemy splits up to go after 7 -10 towns, and are able to cap them because at best the defenders can have one person in 5 towns, leaving 15 enemy to attack towns unmolested.

If we don't have AOs, doesn't that mean that the only real coordinated efforts would be by large squads? I'm not against squads, but I just see that leaving a lot of people who have no idea of what is going on or what to do...

I just envision a map in chaos, and a lot of steam players coming in, being confused and leaving.

We don't have a lot of large squads anymore. I don't see a lot of squads spending all their time focused on recruiting and training new players, and I can only imagine how many potential players would fall between the cracks.

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Whenever a small garrison in empty towns is suggested for some reason it inevitably leads to the suggested removal of ToE and AO and HC and while I could envision the return to truck deployment FRUs, I still cannot envision the return to no ToE and no HC and no AOs. I'm not saying it might not work, I just keep wondering if those days are long gone. Mainly because of the lack of large squads and handing all the power back to large squads if they were to redevelop. It gives the player base too much leverage and as Quincannon says leaves a lot of cracks for players that might not want to operate with large squads falling by the wayside.

Why can't we have it all ToE, AO, HC and small garrisoned towns if not held by at least one brigade.

How garrisoned supplies are affected by resupply and attrition and their relation with brigades is something that would have to be looked at.

Ideally I would think garrisoned units are not resupplied directly from factory timers. Rather garrisoned units would and could be submitted to attrition down to nothing and remain that way until a brigade moves in from either side and then are resupplied by the brigade and then the brigade itself begins to be resupplied.

In the case of a captured town the enemy garrisoned supply if any is lost and the incoming brigade resupplies the garrisoned supply as much as possible and has to wait for resupply which goes directly into garrison reinforcement until the garrison is full and then the brigade itself begins to build back up to full strength.

So you can see that how supply interrelates in the "all in" situation could cause some serious coding and resource attention.

In any case the addition of garrisoned units could introduce HC invoked AOs and possibly player invoked skirmishes to soften up towns whether that is two towns on the front without brigades or by paratrooper operations that would be for the player base to decide. If in addition paratroopers are allowed to capture CPs without the need for AOs then we would have a whole new ball game. With of course some tweaks to each sides paratrooper supplies and availability.

I like the idea of having both ToE and small garrisons in every town. Where garrisoned units dispositions are not known to the enemy by any kind of flag or map marker.

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I would never suggest getting rid of brigades or HC.

I think the AO system is somewhat flawed, however.

Brigades, and HC to move them, ensures large scale battles and extended engagements.

The idea of garrisons is to ensure that there will always be action on the map.

Revamping the AO system as I suggested would relieve some of the responsibility and pressure on HC, it would also make it possible for players to drive the game and have a good time playing even when there are no HC online.

I don't think the game needs a massive overhaul. I just think a few simple alterations would make it much better.

There are pluses and minuses to the current brigade system and HC system, adding light garrisons to unbrigaded cities simply fixes some of the minuses and keeps most of the pluses.

Altering the AO system to allow action every where is another step. Which of course has big implications. There is a middle ground. You could up the number of allowed AOs. Every Squad CO or XO could be given one AO that they alone can place on behalf of their squad. There are options besides the current AO system.

One last point: this sort of garrison system can be used in place of side locks and spawn delays.

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Stonecomet makes some good points.

I like the idea of being able to capture CPs without an AO, but not the AB. That would allow players to drive AOs but require HC to decide which Player driven attack gets the AO and the supplies. Fun fun fun!

Garrison resupply is an interesting point. It is important to be able to attrit a garrison. But also necessary that a brigade resupply in a reasonable period. I would suggest tying it to national supply. If it was tied to the brigade system we would just be increasing the reliance on HC and the burden on HC.

If we put garrisons in every un-brigaded city no map icon is needed.

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What about just give squads their own platoon flag? This allows them to go where they want on occasion.

I'd start with a single platoons worth of supply, supplemented by ENGR, ATR, AA and ATG.

HQ: 1x SMG, 3x rifle, 1x sniper, 1x truck

4x squad: 1xSMG, 1x LMG, 1x grenadier, 7x rifle, 1x truck

mortar: 3x mortar, 1x truck

Attached:

engineer: 2x ENGR, 1x truck

atr: 2x ATR

aa: 2x light AA, 1x truck

atg: 2x light ATG, 1x truck

Squad would be attached to some division (allows resupply from HQ), but be allowed independent movement. It would have normal RDP timers for resupply.

If this is simply too little of supply, then just double it.

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What about just give squads their own platoon flag? This allows them to go where they want on occasion.

I'd start with a single platoons worth of supply, supplemented by ENGR, ATR, AA and ATG.

HQ: 1x SMG, 3x rifle, 1x sniper, 1x truck

4x squad: 1xSMG, 1x LMG, 1x grenadier, 7x rifle, 1x truck

mortar: 3x mortar, 1x truck

Attached:

engineer: 2x ENGR, 1x truck

atr: 2x ATR

aa: 2x light AA, 1x truck

atg: 2x light ATG, 1x truck

Squad would be attached to some division (allows resupply from HQ), but be allowed independent movement. It would have normal RDP timers for resupply.

If this is simply too little of supply, then just double it.

unmanageable.

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Why? Each squad manages their own flag. If no CO or XO is on, the flag does not appear on the map. When they back on, it would be allowed to be put in it's last location (if still valid) or adjacent to any sister flag not front line.

Only squaddies would be allowed to use supply.

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Why? Each squad manages their own flag. If no CO or XO is on, the flag does not appear on the map. When they back on, it would be allowed to be put in it's last location (if still valid) or adjacent to any sister flag not front line.

Only squaddies would be allowed to use supply.

Oh wow. I don't even want to consider how complex that would be programmatically. :P

Also, making it squads only just reintroduces more opportunities for unfun.

The idea of garrisons is to make game play better for players over all, regardless of the presence of HC and regardless of population differences.

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A proposal to rewind the game design to ideas that were tried and found unsuccessful in the early days, should include a discussion of why the conclusions reached then were incorrect.

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A proposal to rewind the game design to ideas that were tried and found unsuccessful in the early days, should include a discussion of why the conclusions reached then were incorrect.

In the early days of the game there many things that were different from today. FBs, FRUs, vehicles, Brigades, Navy, Paras, HC. The garrison system then is materially different from what I'm proposing today.

So, characterizing my proposal as rewinding isn't entirely accurate. And characterizing the past system as incorrect or a failure isn't entirely accurate either.

The past system was, arguably much more successful I that the player base was much larger. And so on.

My current garrison proposal uses what I consider the successful elements of the original idea. The purpose of my current proposal is to address som of the game play issues that prevent or hinder enjoyable play at all times, particularly when HC are not available, or working against the interest of enjoyable play.

It also attempts to address some of the issues generated by massive population differences. No, garrisons will not eliminate those disparities, but they will make enjoyable game play possible during those times.

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All advantage. But I would go further. Remove that TOEs system that was brought in 2007. Past due.

Honestly, we should return to town garrisons supplies. Was more popular, less burn out in HCs, more interdiction, more squad plays and more fun for everyone. When you killed an unit, that meant something. TZ3 no pop caps had lower effects on campaign state that it has right now.

Also concur. I may make a separate suggestion at the risk of getting flamed.

Convert entire map to hexagon based. Brigades can go anywhere, except the water. If there isn't an AB, it creates its on FB. No stacking of brigades. Same rules to trace its supply back to a factory or HQ and in turn from HQ to factory.

There should be a garrison in all the towns from frontline to factory source. Formations traditionally had a supply line going from the front line back to a supply source and had it garrisoned. There were even formations designated to hunt and guard against partisans or saboteurs.

Edit: I'm not advocating removing brigades or TOE, just augmenting it. Numbers and equipment can vary depending on which brigade is tracing its supply?

Edited by knotking

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