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Spaag?

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Self propelled anti aircraft guns? Discuss.

Good to add variety to the game and reduce the reliance on trucks, as well as allowing rapid response against air threats. May be useful in an anti-infantry role as well, which can present new challenges. But I have not heard of an Allied one so that might present balancing issues. Perhaps this can be a good start for pursuing asymmetrical balance?

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Would be cool but I can just imagine how these would completely tear spawnables apart with say a German one with a 37mm AA gun or 2x 20mm AA guns.

The well known allied equivalent, Quad 50cal would completely decimate infantry and 232's in the right situation. If given the range (I think 50cals disappear after 2km?) these could be used like artillery against an AB or sweep the outskirts of towns of EFRU's.

I would love to use them but I would not want them to mess things up.

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Would be cool but I can just imagine how these would completely tear spawnables apart with say a German one with a 37mm AA gun or 2x 20mm AA guns.

The well known allied equivalent, Quad 50cal would completely decimate infantry and 232's in the right situation. If given the range (I think 50cals disappear after 2km?) these could be used like artillery against an AB or sweep the outskirts of towns of EFRU's.

I would love to use them but I would not want them to mess things up.

How much worse is 1 SPAA compared to two tanks?

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Hello All.

The introduction of SPAA into the game would be a reasonable step, however I believe the biggest point against it is the fact the Allies, any of them, never really had SPAA to the level the Germans did.

The only one that comes to mind for the Allies was the M16 (M3/5 halftrack with 4 x .50cals in a power turret). From a strict historic perspective this vehicle would become available in T3.

The Germans on the other hand had many and various SPAA based on light and medium trucks, light, medium and heavy halftracks and even some based on tank hulls. The weapons fitted were also as varied, from dual 13mm, single and quad 20mm, single 37mm and 50mm automatic cannons. For the Germans SPAA would be historically available from at least T1 onwards.

The reason for this disparity is simple. The Luftwaffe lost control of the Air to the Allies so therefore the only practical defence was to have mobile AA Guns to go with the troops.

From the availability perspective alone I would be very surprised to see the introduction of SPAA into BGE any earlier than T3 as there would effectively be very little to fill the Allied TO&Es with an similar/equivalent vehicle earlier.

Cheers

James10

Edited by james10

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Well, since this isn't red vrs blue, we could easily introduce SPAA for Germans in the early tiers, w/o other nations having any; but just keep the numbers low. So, in 1940 maybe none, 1941 maybe 1 Sd Kfz 10/4 per flag, then 1942 have 2 per flag etc.

To make up for it, the other nations get the same number of AA guns in their order of battle per flag.

However, before we get any SPAA, I'd like to see our ground AA get the 20mm Flak 38, the 37mm Flak 36 and 37mm Flak 43. This would seem to be of far greater value and probably easier to model.

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Hello All.

The introduction of SPAA into the game would be a reasonable step, however I believe the biggest point against it is the fact the Allies, any of them, never really had SPAA to the level the Germans did.

The only one that comes to mind for the Allies was the M16 (M3/5 halftrack with 4 x .50cals in a power turret). From a strict historic perspective this vehicle would become available in T3.

The Germans on the other hand had many and various SPAA based on light and medium trucks, light, medium and heavy halftracks and even some based on tank hulls. The weapons fitted were also as varied, from dual 13mm, single and quad 20mm, single 37mm and 50mm automatic cannons. For the Germans SPAA would be historically available from at least T1 onwards.

The reason for this disparity is simple. The Luftwaffe lost control of the Air to the Allies so therefore the only practical defence was to have mobile AA Guns to go with the troops.

From the availability perspective alone I would be very surprised to see the introduction of SPAA into BGE any earlier than T3 as there would effectively be very little to fill the Allied TO&Es with an similar/equivalent vehicle earlier.

Cheers

James10

Just to add to this, the Brits had a few different variation of the Crusader tank that had AA Guns. I think they also had some armor cars that were equipped and maybe a Cromwell with AAA. The only ones I don't know is the French. They maybe could give the French the M13. Which is a M3/M5 HT with twin .50s.

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The prior CRS design team...Doc and others...talked about the following set of SPAA vehicles being a development-goal:

Bofors 40mm on modified Morris all-wheel-drive truck (modification of existing gun model, modification of existing truck model):

MorrisComC9B40AA-LF.jpg

Hotchkiss CaMle 40J dual 25mm platform mount on Laffly S25TL all-wheel-drive truck (new gun model partly based on existing CaMle 39 model, new truck model):

post-153-1206897181_zpszz6n3rme.jpg

FlaK 38 quad mount (FlaK Vierling) on SdKfz 7 halftrack (new gun model, minor modification of existing half track model):

p56flak.jpg

Edited by jwilly

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Two of the illustrations show guns with bullet/fragment shields. There was discussion that the game models would not have such shields, to decrease the extent to which they could dominate infantry targets within rifle range.

This set of weapons was planned before the modeling of American forces. Now, presumably, the American M16 quad-.50-cal halftrack would be a fourth element of the set.

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Well, since this isn't red vrs blue, we could easily introduce SPAA for Germans in the early tiers, w/o other nations having any

This is a misunderstanding. "Not red vs. blue" means that the sides don't get exactly equal effectiveness, although possibly different looking, weapons. It doesn't mean that one side gets a lethality-increasing weapon, and the other doesn't.

Side to side balance must be maintained. There's no question that SPAA would increase side lethality, therefore it could not be added for just one side because balance would be changed.

And, intermodel balance (in this instance, air vs. ground) must be maintained. If the Germans' AA capabilities were significantly increased as shown by in-game lethality against Allied aircraft, balance would require that the lethality of Allied aircraft toward German ground forces would have to be similarly increased. It'd make no sense to increase the air-to-ground lethality of only Allied aircraft, therefore it wouldn't work to add only German SPAA.

In any case, there'd be no need for such a determination, since there was a plan for a full triad/quad of SPAA.

Note BTW that one can infer, per the intermodel balance goal, that if SPAA were added, all sides also would get an increase in air-to-ground lethality. I don't think CRS ever discussed that, but it's an obvious implication.

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Before hand an easy thing to do would be to give Bofors a gun shield from Tier1 onwards which provides protection from rifle fire

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Reposting this from elsewhere (Motorpool) simply because it discusses the SPAA question.

I'm not really in favor of any "balancing" additions to Tier0 because I love the fact that it still reflects the old WW2ONL-philisophy of modeling stuff that was commonly available in the war - regardless of whether or not it had an "equivalent" on the other side. Sure: Axis' greatest historical advantages in Tier0 like better tactics, tank deployment and comms aren't a huge factor in the game, but I'd hate to see Tier0 turn into a red-vs-blue affair. I like being scared of Matties, Chars and S-35s ... and I like the Allies being afraid of a smartly positioned 88 ..

That's the spirit in which we began this great thing ... and while the pressure to field equality to each side is always there, and always will be ... there was always a desire burning within us to do it by means that satisfied both criteria; equality in overall ability of each country involved AND differentiation that added to the tension and diversity of the experiences whilst trying to remain historically divergent in appearance and ... for want of a better word, tone.

If I were still making decisions I'd definitely take the tank development ahead of you and build the Panther. To ease the resources problem and to make this more feasible I'd still go with the plan we had, to model the Firefly and M36-B1 which would both be a relative doddle to do already having the bulk of the work done in the existing M4a2 and M4a3 Shermans. This would maintain the divergent flavour criteria and meet the equality in overall ability criteria at the same time as using the absolute minimum of scarce resources to complete.

I'd also put on the "next AFV to do list" the Achilles, the PzKw.IIIM ... both almost freebies in terms of the resources required ... and then focus on getting SPAA into the game ASAP and again, with as few resources required as possible.

That would likely mean (as originally planned) :

40mm Bofors on Morris CDSW

4 x 20mm or 1 x 37mm on an SdKfz.7 (although it could be an SdKfz.10)

2 x 25mm on a Laffly S20 (although this really should be a new truck like the S25)

The Americans would need an M3 modeled for their SPAA, and this requirement would be the chief reason to bend the rules a little and use the existing SdKfz.7 and Laffly as derivitives for the French and German SPAA carriers. Just to get it done rather than put it on a list forever because the work is too great to ever get them done in a timely fashion, if at all. Depending on several factors that are unknown, perhaps the correct derivative could be created out of a "baseline" of the existing variants, but this might end up being as much or more work as an entirely fresh build would be. The American SPAA could be either a 4 x .50 cal quad or the interesting 1 x 37mm + 2 x .50 cal Maxton mount.

While it would be a contentious issue I'm sure...

the Brit:40mm/Germ:37mm/USA:37mm/French:2x25mm has some appeal in that the 37mm AA was considered almost dead equal to the 40mm Bofors in overall effectiveness.

Anyway, this is simply conjecture. It is what was in our minds and our plans at the end in early 2015 when Gopher and I were pondering this aspect of future development.

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===

Before hand an easy thing to do would be to give Bofors a gun shield from Tier1 onwards which provides protection from rifle fire

===

All AA and ATGs should have a crew shield and the crew should be very low with respect to it (including 251/c. This is one of the huge failings imo of the implementation, it is far too easy, I think, for a single rifleman to kill an AA or ATG.

Also, if a gun had a 5 man crew, it should take 5 kill shots to completely disable it, the owner being allowed to shift crewman as need to man it - with probable slowing of movement (to none if need) and slower rate of fire.

Also, some sort of cover/camo needs to be created for dug in guns, from et and ea, again, far to easy to be killed.

===

There was discussion that the game models would not have such shields, to decrease the extent to which they could dominate infantry targets within rifle range.

===

Too bad, terrible decision imo.

Edited by delems

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Lots of players think of the game in terms of what they want to play. They want that game-element to be very lethal and quite hard to kill.

Lots of players don't understand that the game is PvP, and has to offer customers on both sides the same hope of victory, tactically and strategically.

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Hello All,

I was hoping this might have been a spaghetti thread.

What is a "spaghetti thread"?

Cheers

James10

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What is a "spaghetti thread"?

Hehe I'm just being a dork and teasing the OP a bit James.

The thread title is Spaag and is supposed to be about "self propelled anti aircraft guns." But personally I've only ever seen the acronym SPAA used for such weapon systems, fully uppercase, and never with the added "g" at the end.

To me the title looked like more the word spaghetti rather than the acronym SPAA, so then I made a joke about it.

So in this case a spaghetti thread would just have been a thread devoted to spaghetti :D

Feel free to ignore my weak humor lol.

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If the MGC M16 is too much, get the MGC M13, the 2x 50 cal version.

Or the MGC M15, with 2x 50 Cal and 1x 37mm M1A2 cannon.

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