vasduten1

Sapper Fix

14 posts in this topic

OK guys... it's high time to enable the placement of HEAT charges while a tank is rolling at under 5mph.

The sapper is a great troop to use, but when a tanker can be impervious to satchel by simply rolling along at a slow speed, it's just ri-GD-diculous.

I mean... come on.

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No? You think it's realistic to not be able to plant a charge on a tank that's creeping ahead?

You think it's fun to get killed when it merely bumps into you? How about ATGs? You like being instantly killed the second any part of it touches you when it's "not deployed"?

I say... NOPE.

It needs a fix, because it is stinky gameplay.

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But it's part of the current intermodal balance equation.

If infantry are made more lethal toward tanks, that balance will shift.

Unless, of course, infantry are otherwise made less lethal toward tanks, or tanks are made more lethal toward infantry.

One way to do the former would be to fix the currently faulty damage physics for HEAT ordnance of all kinds. Another would be to eliminate the current "HEAT sapper charge", which is an imaginary weapon vaguely based on the German-only HHL-3 magnetic-attach device. The Brits, French and Americans never had a weapon like that in general issue. The Germans didn't have it actually fielded until T3.

Edited by jwilly

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Well.. the satchel charge was a real thing ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satchel_charge

not sure though how often these were used by infantry to hunt down tanks.

I would imagine that in RL, all infantry AT weapons (like the satchel charge, the german magnetic hollow charge AT mine or even the Faustpatrone/Panzerfaust) weren't usually used to actively hunt tanks like we do in the game but more as a last resort kind of weapon.

Infantry would probably rely on mine-fields, ATGs or friendly TDs/tanks to deal with enemy armor.

I have no problem with the current mechanics of attaching a satchel to an ET. IMO tanks are too vulnerable to enemy infantry as it is. This is of course due to a number of factors. Like tanks operating without a screen of infantry around them, lack of fear of death, exaggerated tank audio making it easy to track/locate a tank, tank crews being unable to simply shoot infantry off the tank with small arms, etc.

S.

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As you see in the Wiki article, a WWII "satchel charge" was several blocks of C4 or TNT plus a detonation/time delay setup in a messenger bag, or the equivalent in each army.

Great for general demolition of wood/masonry structures, or for anti-personnel blast/flame effects in a closed space such as a pillbox. Ineffective against the outside of a steel structure, which is optimal for shrugging off such an unfocused hot pressure-wave.

Ealy WWII tanks' engine cooling and air intake systems were relatively less protected against shock effects due to HE detonation directly against the grate that covered the radiators/hoses, air cleaners and carburetors. The Germans used wired-together bundles of their blast-type stick grenades as anti-tank weapons in 1940 to achieve this kind of damage. But, WWII tank designers of course were responsible for evaluating how their respective enemies were able to kill their products, so they greatly improved the blast resistance of engine compartments. Later-war tanks were much harder to kill with HE, even in large quantities directly on the engine deck. A later war tank still could be killed with five gallons or so of gasoline poured directly onto the engine and ignited, but it was much less likely to be killed with just HE.

Edited by jwilly

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You guys make some excellent points... Since the "sapper" wasn't really a "thing" in WWII, I retract my suggestions.

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Infantry did have AT weapons from 1940 onward...just not magnetic-attach HEAT devices with effectively infinite penetrative/destructive jet energy.

(AT rifles, small AT guns, large HE devices, flammable liquids and AT mines not included.)

Germans:

1940--grenade bundle placed or close-tossed on tank or AC engine deck. Sometimes destroyed the engine cooling system, occasionally started a fire.

1941--30mm-system HEAT RG. (Could reasonably stand in for the briefly FJ-only-used, poorer-performing GG/P40.) All jet energy used up at ~20mm penetration.

~1942--HHL-1 "panzerhandmine" sticky-attach HEAT device. All jet energy used up at ~40mm penetration. Could not be used on vertical, wet, cold, dusty or oily surfaces due to limitations of the attachment-glue, i.e. mostly used by placing on engine deck or on flat hull top surfaces around the turret.

~1942--"Large" 30mm-system HEAT RG. All jet energy used up at ~70mm penetration.

1943--HHL-3 "panzerhandmine" magnetic-attach HEAT device. This is the ordnance that CRS had in mind, performance wise, when they created the "sapper charge". There were two different looking but similar performing designs...one used by the general Army, the other only by the Fallshirmjagers due to their separate ordnance design and procurement system. All jet energy used up at ~140mm penetration.

1943--Panzerschreck. All jet energy used up at ~160mm penetration. Significant firing smoke, forward and backblast.

1943--Panzerfaust. All jet energy used up at ~200mm penetration. Significant smoke backblast.

1944--61mm HEAT round for 30mm RG system. Could only be fired from the panzerbuchse (modified AT rifle). All jet energy used up at ~125mm penetration.

British:

1940--Number 68 HEAT RG. All jet energy used up at ~50mm penetration. 1940 versions had poor fuzing performance except at close to 90 degree impact. Withdrawn from service by 1942.

~1942--PIAT. HEAT round, all jet energy used up at ~100mm penetration. Also had HE and smoke rounds.

French:

1940--Brandt 50mm HEAT RG. 150,000 rounds manufactured in 1940 and in Army ordnance dumps, mostly not issued due to bureaucratic snafu following German attack. Some units used in 1940; more extensively used by Resistance, and by Free French units in 1944. Could be fired only by the MAS36 rifle...not by the Lebel. The same rifle adapter could fire the 50mm mortar HE and smoke rounds. All jet energy estimated used up at ~50mm penetration.

Edited by jwilly

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Infantry did have AT weapons from 1940 onward...just not magnetic-attach HEAT devices with effectively infinite penetrative/destructive jet energy.

(AT rifles, small AT guns, large HE devices, flammable liquids and AT mines not included.)

Germans:

1940--grenade bundle placed or close-tossed on tank or AC engine deck. Sometimes destroyed the engine cooling system, occasionally started a fire.

1941--30mm-system HEAT RG. (Could reasonably stand in for the briefly FJ-only-used, poorer-performing GG/P40.) All jet energy used up at ~20mm penetration.

~1942--HHL-1 "panzerhandmine" sticky-attach HEAT device. All jet energy used up at ~40mm penetration. Could not be used on vertical, wet, cold, dusty or oily surfaces due to limitations of the attachment-glue, i.e. mostly used by placing on engine deck or on flat hull top surfaces around the turret.

~1942--"Large" 30mm-system HEAT RG. All jet energy used up at ~70mm penetration.

1943--HHL-3 "panzerhandmine" magnetic-attach HEAT device. This is the ordnance that CRS had in mind, performance wise, when they created the "sapper charge". There were two different looking but similar performing designs...one used by the general Army, the other only by the Fallshirmjagers due to their separate ordnance design and procurement system. All jet energy used up at ~140mm penetration.

1943--Panzerschreck. All jet energy used up at ~160mm penetration. Significant firing smoke, forward and backblast.

1943--Panzerfaust. All jet energy used up at ~200mm penetration. Significant smoke backblast.

1944--61mm HEAT round for 30mm RG system. Could only be fired from the panzerbuchse (modified AT rifle). All jet energy used up at ~125mm penetration.

British:

1940--Number 68 HEAT RG. All jet energy used up at ~50mm penetration. 1940 versions had poor fuzing performance except at close to 90 degree impact. Withdrawn from service by 1942.

~1942--PIAT. HEAT round, all jet energy used up at ~100mm penetration. Also had HE and smoke rounds.

French:

1940--Brandt 50mm HEAT RG. 150,000 rounds manufactured in 1940 and in Army ordnance dumps, mostly not issued due to bureaucratic snafu following German attack. Some units used in 1940; more extensively used by Resistance, and by Free French units in 1944. Could be fired only by the MAS36 rifle...not by the Lebel. The same rifle adapter could fire the 50mm mortar HE and smoke rounds. All jet energy estimated used up at ~50mm penetration.

british / french

1940 thermite grenade

(thermite was invented in early 1900's before ww1)

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russians had something similar to a ''sapper''

this is some of them

Edited by silversoil

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This is weird, I always get a charge placed (or clipped in) when an et is rolling, and its a full on turret blows off explosion.

Just did it this weekend, the et was moving very slow but blew the turret of a Souma

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This is weird, I always get a charge placed (or clipped in) when an et is rolling, and its a full on turret blows off explosion.

Just did it this weekend, the et was moving very slow but blew the turret of a Souma

It's pretty much luck based when planting a charge on a moving tank, sometimes it places where you want it, sometimes it doesn't,

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