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donatelli

Is there anything that can be done to bring balance to the air game

61 posts in this topic

Maybe it's the arcade flight model of the allies, or maybe it's just because the air war was so popular with Allies.....we love our airplanes and they represented what won ww2. Shoot, if they brought the p47 or corsair, I would want to fly them too.

But the fact of the matter is even when axis is overpop, there are still twice as many allied pilots on. It's always two on one, and it makes for a bad experience on the axis side. What I see happening is if we can advertise the game and bring more people, the more the air game is going to be out of whack.

The question is, what can be done to attract more pilots to the LW?

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I blame the Spitfire. Both for her sexy lines and the more accessible FM.

Plus she keeps that appeal as she "matures" through the Tier-set. Switching from a Spit I to a II feels much more "natural" than switching from an E-4 to an F-2.

I think we also shouldn't underestimate player nationalities. I've heard many US-players say that they couldn't imagine fighting for the Dark Side.

And even though I've played Allied before, I generally prefer Axis myself. Not least because it took me an entire campaign to re-learn Axis cannon after Allied Laz0rs had spoiled my gunnery.. :D

S.

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The air game is very imbalanced but it has more to do with 75 pct of the pilots flying on the allied side than anything else.

A few campaigns back the pilots were self-regulating themselves and some of them were coming over to fly axis. That seemed to work good for a couple campaigns but now its bad again. This campaign Allies were flying bombing runs on axis factories against AI opponent only all night long. That is bad for both sides.

Supposedly CRS is going to introduce some new aircraft untits after 1.35 patch. New toys might generate some interest and get some axis pilots to return again depending on what aircraft types get introduced.

I think thats about all that can be done really at this point in time. Maybe someone else has a good idea how to fix it.

Edited by krazydog

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New toys might generate some interest and get some axis pilots to return again depending on what aircraft types get introduced.

FockeWulfFw190D-13Dora-02.jpg

me262_kp.jpg

C.205_V.JPG

Gimme, gimme, gimme!!!

;)

S.

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I dont know about you guys, but when I spawn in, I see overhead

mostly Axis. I rarely see more allied than axis.

:cool:

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This campaign I flew mostly allied and at few points I was alone against 10 axis airplanes, 8 of them flying together in one blob. There was literally no other air mission up and for hours it was a lone DB7 and I against swaths of 109s.

Both extremes happen (and I'd say this campaign, even in tier 1, it was axis that had strong dominance), you are just more likely to see one of them.

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Yeah.. I don't think anecdotal evidence is helpful here. Unless CRS would publish some sort of detailed statistics about how busy Axis and Allied air-forces have been over a week, a month or an entire campaign, all we'll get out of a discussion like this are subjective "snapshots" of air activity.

I've had stretches in-game where we'd have an Allied horde roaming the skies and just half an hour later there was nothing but LW in the air. So the situation can change rather quickly from one extreme to the other.

Plus we mustn't forget the importance of the current front-line. If one side has an AF just a sector or less away and the other has to fly 2 or 3 sectors to get to the battle - guess which side will throw up a constant red square over the target? :D

S.

Edited by sascha

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It all comes down to the WW2OL hierarchy of value:

  • The infantryman captures flags. Ultimately the entire game is won or lost because of him.
  • The tank is a tool for helping or hindering infantrymen to their objectives. A tank may sometimes engage another tank, but that's only because that other tank is getting in the way of it's main goal of protecting/suppressing infantry.
  • The antitank weapon is a tool for removing tanks from play.
  • The bomber is a tool for destroying ground targets that would otherwise get in the way of infantry.
  • The fighter is a tool for destroying bombers. A fighter may sometimes engage another fighter, but that's only because that other fighter is getting in the way of it's main goal of destroying bombers.

And so on. Ultimately the value of any unit can be measured in how many degrees it is removed from the infantryman.

Now how does this affect the RAF vs the LW? It all comes down to Ground Attack Ability.

On the LW side there is the Stuka, which can very accurately deliver a single 250kg bomb to an area and completely fails at everything else. It's guns are worthless, it's slow, it's fragile, and it can't maneuver. Next there is the Me110, which was decent back when it's 20mm could still hurt DACs, Panhards and the occasional A13. However over the years those quad cannons have been "audited" back to where they can barely damage a Bedford. It, too, is slow and can't maneuver. After that there is the Me110C4, which is the same thing but with a pair of 250kg bombs, making this slow, sluggish cow the best ground attack plane that the Germans have to offer.

On the Allied side... well, lemme put it like this: I've lost count of the number of FMBs that I've seen blown out of the water from a single burst of machinegun fire from RAF planes. Not bombs, not cannons, just machineguns. Nor can I even remember the number of panzers I've seen destroyed by nose-diving P38s, again using nothing more than machineguns. What if comes down is that, for the most part, the Allies don't even need ground attack planes because they're irrelevant when you've already got an entire line up of "point and kill" weapons that can apparently take out most the Axis spawn list without ever resorting to silly concepts like "bombs" or "cannons."

But we give them bombs and cannons anyway, and unlike their Axis counterparts the A520, the Hurribomber, and their cannon wielding fighter line-up are all fast, agile, and perfectly capable of acquitting themselves in a dogfight just as well they do in ground attack.

So that's the first half of the problem, which in turn creates the second half of the problem: Since there is no point in the Germans even trying to do ground attack - thus losing a big chunk of motivation to fly - then there is nothing for the fighter pilots to defend - thus losing another chunk of motivation to fly. The only reason left to fly German, then, is to defend against Allied fighters and bombers.

And then when you get there you find that their ground attack planes are equal (Hurribomber) or greater (P38) dogfighters than your dedicated dogfighters. And then the actual Allied dogfighters show up...

This is why people don't fly German. The only contest is between Allied pilots, in seeing who can rack up the most kills the fastest.

Now there was one thing that could have helped. Years ago DOC claimed CRS was working on putting AI control into unmanned guns for vehicles. This meant the AA guns in ships and the turret guns in fighters. I believe that this could have made a difference for the Germans, as having accurate AI rear gunners for the Stuka & Me110 would have made them more viable. Likewise, the He111 would actually be able to get some use out of it's multitude of guns and would have actually been somewhat dangerous to engage.

Sadly, as with most things, this was never delivered. Still, had it actually happened, along with perhaps some AP rounds for the 20mm to counteract the overall nerfing of those guns, then Germany would have regained some motivation to actually do some ground attack sorties. As seen above, that's where everything starts for the air game... or ends.

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It all comes down to the WW2OL hierarchy of value:

  • The infantryman captures flags. Ultimately the entire game is won or lost because of him.
  • The tank is a tool for helping or hindering infantrymen to their objectives. A tank may sometimes engage another tank, but that's only because that other tank is getting in the way of it's main goal of protecting/suppressing infantry.
  • The antitank weapon is a tool for removing tanks from play.
  • The bomber is a tool for destroying ground targets that would otherwise get in the way of infantry.
  • The fighter is a tool for destroying bombers. A fighter may sometimes engage another fighter, but that's only because that other fighter is getting in the way of it's main goal of destroying bombers.

And so on. Ultimately the value of any unit can be measured in how many degrees it is removed from the infantryman.

Now how does this affect the RAF vs the LW? It all comes down to Ground Attack Ability.

On the LW side there is the Stuka, which can very accurately deliver a single 250kg bomb to an area and completely fails at everything else. It's guns are worthless, it's slow, it's fragile, and it can't maneuver. Next there is the Me110, which was decent back when it's 20mm could still hurt DACs, Panhards and the occasional A13. However over the years those quad cannons have been "audited" back to where they can barely damage a Bedford. It, too, is slow and can't maneuver. After that there is the Me110C4, which is the same thing but with a pair of 250kg bombs, making this slow, sluggish cow the best ground attack plane that the Germans have to offer.

On the Allied side... well, lemme put it like this: I've lost count of the number of FMBs that I've seen blown out of the water from a single burst of machinegun fire from RAF planes. Not bombs, not cannons, just machineguns. Nor can I even remember the number of panzers I've seen destroyed by nose-diving P38s, again using nothing more than machineguns. What if comes down is that, for the most part, the Allies don't even need ground attack planes because they're irrelevant when you've already got an entire line up of "point and kill" weapons that can apparently take out most the Axis spawn list without ever resorting to silly concepts like "bombs" or "cannons."

But we give them bombs and cannons anyway, and unlike their Axis counterparts the A520, the Hurribomber, and their cannon wielding fighter line-up are all fast, agile, and perfectly capable of acquitting themselves in a dogfight just as well they do in ground attack.

So that's the first half of the problem, which in turn creates the second half of the problem: Since there is no point in the Germans even trying to do ground attack - thus losing a big chunk of motivation to fly - then there is nothing for the fighter pilots to defend - thus losing another chunk of motivation to fly. The only reason left to fly German, then, is to defend against Allied fighters and bombers.

And then when you get there you find that their ground attack planes are equal (Hurribomber) or greater (P38) dogfighters than your dedicated dogfighters. And then the actual Allied dogfighters show up...

This is why people don't fly German. The only contest is between Allied pilots, in seeing who can rack up the most kills the fastest.

Now there was one thing that could have helped. Years ago DOC claimed CRS was working on putting AI control into unmanned guns for vehicles. This meant the AA guns in ships and the turret guns in fighters. I believe that this could have made a difference for the Germans, as having accurate AI rear gunners for the Stuka & Me110 would have made them more viable. Likewise, the He111 would actually be able to get some use out of it's multitude of guns and would have actually been somewhat dangerous to engage.

Sadly, as with most things, this was never delivered. Still, had it actually happened, along with perhaps some AP rounds for the 20mm to counteract the overall nerfing of those guns, then Germany would have regained some motivation to actually do some ground attack sorties. As seen above, that's where everything starts for the air game... or ends.

As a fighter pilot, I can assure you have no idea what flying a fighter in this game is about.

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it is time ...

the next generation of bf109s and fw are needed

many ..

this would make many people go ooooooooohohhhhhh.

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I dont know about you guys, but when I spawn in, I see overhead

mostly Axis. I rarely see more allied than axis.

:cool:

Are you serious? :)

Just take a look at the stats page - weapon class section. You can get an idea of the air imbalance. Here is a breakdown of the rough Kill numbers when I checked as of April 25, 2016 (mission sorties data not available):

KILLS by airplane category (numbers rounded out):

Allied Fighters = 2200

Axis Fighters = 1400

Allied Fighter Bombers = 200

Axis Fighter Bombers = 40

Allied Tactical Bombers = 2500

Axis Tactical Bombers = 250

The last category is really a bit shocking - 10 times as many kills - (and these are stats from a campaign where the AXIS have the upper hand so far on the map).

I think maybe you just don't notice the air support from your own side as much as you notice the opponent's air support. (We all do that probably).

Maybe your perception is different but the pilot advantage on the allied side really must be about 4:1 this campaign - at least most of the time - not all the time.

Cheers

Edited by krazydog

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No, not when DB7s continue to chase our fighters down and kill them (saw this last night) and shrug off multiple AA hits, happened with me last night.

Those stats show 4900 allied kills to 1690 if my math is correct. That is a 2.9 to 1.0 ratio; show me some axis units with a 2.9 times KD advantage..... I'm waiting......

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.

The question is, what can be done to attract more pilots to the LW?

Well the first issue is that nothing is going to change until someone acknowledges that there's an imbalance. It seems that there's a lot of people that think everything is fine.

The second issue is where can the game get axis pilots from? Is it going to get pilots from within the existing userbase, is it going to pull them from other games, from former players or from new players? That really shapes any strategy.

To get LW vets back you can probably fix relatively few things, I mean the bar isn't that high as there hasn't been any development for them in ages and minor things might inspire some to come back and take a look. Also you probably got a general list of gripes in the forums somewhere from the departed LW squads, so you have some idea of what your potential users want. Then you have a proven user base, there used to be several hundred regular LW at least.

To get new players flying LW you would have to make it just as easy and enjoyable as flying allied. I don't see that happening at all. If you want to pull LW pilots from other games like War Thunder you would have to institute innumerable upgrades to the game engine and art and aircraft selection so I don't think that's realistic either.

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Well the first issue is that nothing is going to change until someone acknowledges that there's an imbalance. It seems that there's a lot of people that think everything is fine.

The second issue is where can the game get axis pilots from? Is it going to get pilots from within the existing userbase, is it going to pull them from other games, from former players or from new players? That really shapes any strategy.

To get LW vets back you can probably fix relatively few things, I mean the bar isn't that high as there hasn't been any development for them in ages and minor things might inspire some to come back and take a look. Also you probably got a general list of gripes in the forums somewhere from the departed LW squads, so you have some idea of what your potential users want. Then you have a proven user base, there used to be several hundred regular LW at least.

To get new players flying LW you would have to make it just as easy and enjoyable as flying allied. I don't see that happening at all. If you want to pull LW pilots from other games like War Thunder you would have to institute innumerable upgrades to the game engine and art and aircraft selection so I don't think that's realistic either.

Define "imbalance". It is a historical reality that LW did not turn as well as allied planes. The problem is not with the planes but the game mechanics. LW pilots do an excellent job of using boom and zoom tactics to knock down allied aircraft. It certainly is not as intuitive as flying the allied planes but the LW pilots who master it are something. The problem is fighting in this game is town centric. The allies can establish local air superiority over a town by turning circles around town. It does not matter how many allied planes the LW shoot down on their way to target because of rapid rotation of air flags. It all adds up to allied planes buzzing towns and attacking ground forces. The LW stay high and away from town where they can bounce air craft because that is what they are built for. Over time the axis CAS pilots gave up.

When you have planes that are bit harder to master over time you have one side with a lot more sorties than the other. Luckily, it doesn't matter though. As I mentioned in another thread it hardly matters. A side in this game can completely dominate the air war and lose the campaign. The air war is almost inconsequential. RDP bombing does not do much and bombs don't kill heavy tanks. Much better bang for your buck on the ground now.

Edited by saronin

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KILLS by airplane category (numbers rounded out):

Allied Fighters = 2200

Axis Fighters = 1400

Allied Fighter Bombers = 200

Axis Fighter Bombers = 40

Allied Tactical Bombers = 2500

Axis Tactical Bombers = 250

Cheers

@ krazydog

One of the best post ever :D

Thanks for all the work.

Form my personally sight as a new LW pilot i can say that this air game is not fair. I have train with some LW guys on the traning server and every time the same.

If i play the axis plane i have 0,0 chance to make a singel hit vs a medium skilld player he play a allied plane. But if i play with a Allied plane (never train with this planes befor) i make some hits of him or somtimes i win one of the 1vs1 dogfights.

@ saronin

"Define "imbalance". It is a historical reality that LW did not turn as well as allied planes."

Yes that is 100% true and i think it is not a good idea to make the 109 or 190 better in turn well as he historically accurate is. I dont like this idea to because it is not realism.

But history also accurate is that the Fw 190 A-4 fight over western europe vs the spitfire V when they join the war. But in BGE this first model from the Fw 190 A-4 must fight vs the Spitfire XIC. :mad::mad:

If we look at other games as "world of planes" or "war thunder" the Tier opponent of the Fw 190 A-4 is the Spitfire V not the XIC. This games have in this point more realism then BGE.

A other think is if you play at the LW at a fighter you can only fly 90% of all the time the 109. This is really boring over time.. the LW fighter need some diversity and variety i think.

From my personally sight give the german the He 122 in tier 1.

This plane can turn well better then every Spitfire but he is extrem slower and extrem bad in climp up vs a spitfire. Then when some LW guys play together they can mix up her fleet in some boom and zoom and some good dogfight planes and can play better with some team technique.

The allied have know a big and good selection ingame for dogfighter and boom and zoom fighter.

But the best is really look at the post from krazydog :D

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If you have equipment problems in the air, I suggest you LEARN TO FLY. Yes, if all you can do is stick your stick into you bellybutton hole, one of the three airforces will be easier on you (hint, it's not LW or AdA). However once you learn to fly you'll find the other two are much better.

No child left behind doesn't apply here, sorry.

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KILLS by airplane category (numbers rounded out):

Allied Fighter Bombers = 200

Axis Fighter Bombers = 40

Allied Tactical Bombers = 2500

Axis Tactical Bombers = 250

That was the gist of what I was saying before. It either starts with CAS... or it doesn't start at all.

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But history also accurate is that the Fw 190 A-4 fight over western europe vs the spitfire V when they join the war. But in BGE this first model from the Fw 190 A-4 must fight vs the Spitfire XIC.

Was going to post a long-ish lists of historical inconsistencies in our tech-tree, but I deleted it all again. Suffice it to say that you're right. Spit IX was a reaction to the 190's dominance over the Spit Mk V.

Still: The 190 in this game is one of the better representations of the plane that I've flown (if K/D ratios are the yard-stick). Yeah: The gunsight-view kinda sucks, sometimes she'll blow up from the first ping, and I swear she smells of Kangaroo-balls in the cockpit... :D

But overall, I really like BGE's 190. Unless the guy in the Spit really knows his stuff, Spits aren't that much of a problem in the 190. It's the P-38s you have to worry about ... especially when there's a Redwing or a Rebel at the stick... err yoke. :D

S.

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I blame the Spitfire. Both for her sexy lines and the more accessible FM.

Plus she keeps that appeal as she "matures" through the Tier-set. Switching from a Spit I to a II feels much more "natural" than switching from an E-4 to an F-2.

I think we also shouldn't underestimate player nationalities. I've heard many US-players say that they couldn't imagine fighting for the Dark Side.

And even though I've played Allied before, I generally prefer Axis myself. Not least because it took me an entire campaign to re-learn Axis cannon after Allied Laz0rs had spoiled my gunnery.. :D

What is with calling inanimate objects "she" ?

Vehicles have no gender, they are made in factories by people and machines.

While the Spit had a good turn circle it lacked power and guns in comparison to the BF's & ME's. I have not bothered flying in this game (free 2 play account) but I will safely bet that the plane does not give feed back. eg. The Spit wing would start to vibrate when pushing a hard turn indicating that a stall was coming if you did not slack off. IL-2 Sturmovik was the best flight sim I ever played, it had a few flaws but a great way to get free flying lessons.

America and the Dark Side ha ha ha...

America was just as guilty of War Crimes in WWII, and beyond, so it is not like they were innocent angles come to save the world from Evil. America is pretty evil in its own right.

I highly recommend looking up Maj Gen Smedley Butler 'war is a racket"

Axis had the better tech. Everybody was falling over themselves to get the **** R&D people on their payroll even if it meant letting war criminals escape, no matter how evil they were, if they gave information to the whereabouts of the tech dudes. (**** = how retarded, why are they censoring the word N a z i ???)

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While the Spit had a good turn circle it lacked power and guns in comparison to the BF's & ME's.

Bf and Me = same thing.

I have not bothered flying in this game (free 2 play account) but I will safely bet that the plane does not give feed back.

That's like people bashing products on amazon with a 1-star-review ... when they haven't even bought the product.

IL-2 Sturmovik was the best flight sim I ever played, it had a few flaws but a great way to get free flying lessons.

If you wanted to dominate the LW in OPed Russian planes, IL-2 was great. The way those games represented the German planes was laughable. I met Oleg on more than one occasion and interviewed him - and his approach was pretty much "we ignore German factory spec-sheets and test-pilot-reports on their own planes, because that was all propaganda."

This attitude was so well known among the LW-fans of the IL-2 community, that people today are still accusing IL-2 Battle of Stalingrad of Russian bias - even though it's pretty much a new team and no Oleg behind that game. I can't comment on the validity of that claim, since I haven't played BoS and I'm not about to judge a game I've never even played.

Axis had the better tech

They certainly didn't in the BoF - at least not in all departments. Superior tactics, doctrine and comms (plus disorganization and WW1-era kind of thinking on the French side) were what made the fall of France possible. French tanks were considered the best in the world at that time and the Germans were using paper-thin armor with inadequate guns. Why else would they have started to use a friggin AA-gun to deal with enemy tanks? My granddad was in the war and he would tell me about how the Germans hated their "Panzeranklopfgerät" and what a shock the Russian tanks like the T-34 were to them.

S.

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I don't care what your stinking stats say.

I, personally see, typically, more AXIS planes

in the air than allied. Many times I see red squares and lots

of yellow.

As for 109's have a greater turn radius is BS. They always out turn me.

I am on the verge of black out in a turn. But they still do it faster

and shorter. I don't see how they do it. But it happens.

:rolleyes:

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I don't care what your stinking stats say.

I, personally see, typically, more AXIS planes

in the air than allied. Many times I see red squares and lots

of yellow.

As for 109's have a greater turn radius is BS. They always out turn me.

I am on the verge of black out in a turn. But they still do it faster

and shorter. I don't see how they do it. But it happens.

:rolleyes:

Objective measures are clearly inferior to subjective observations in the forums. When presented with facts it is always better to reject that reality and substitute it with one's own.

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Look, this is about an air game that is out of whack balance wise. It's all a matter if we can be honest with ourselves.

As an axis pilot, I would like to have the luxury of screaming in and out of an ab with a bomber. The speed of the allied bombers makes them hard to hit.

I asked for performance of the aircraft in the game. I was given a chart. What I saw was the allies have the best performing plane at high altitude (p38), the best at low alt (spit v), and the best climb rate (spit IX). Wherever the axis planes fly, the allies can choose their ride from three different countries.

When we hit steam, if population grows as they think, it's going to be airquake all over again. I don't want to suffer the US prime time airquake crap we did years ago. Constantly being bombed on spawn in. It's a crappy game experience and it drove me away from the game.

At least let bofors spawn at depots to give air defense half a chance. Or take the flop away from one of the axis planes so noobs and weekend warriors can yank the stick like allies do instead of trying to turn fight and flop to the ground. No one wants to spend hours and hours having to learn to fly a plane when they can just jump to easy mode and yank a stick.

Kudos to Mingus and Vader. Honestly, without them I wonder if there would be a LW.

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What I saw was the allies have the best performing plane at high altitude (p38), the best at low alt (spit v), and the best climb rate (spit IX).

FYI, none of this is true. Not sure what you mean by best performing, but the only altitude at which the p38 is faster than the FW190 is at 0m to 500m. At all other altitudes FW190 is faster and as the altitude increases, the gap grows.

If you talk about turn rate at low altitude (assuming that is what you mean by calling Spit V best performing there), a Spit V will be out-turned by the 109e1, 109f4, spit 2b, spit 1, h75, and Ju87.

Best climb rate is borderline, 109f4 climbs better than Spit IX in parts of it climb but mostly: it's best climb speed is like 100km/h faster. So if you are climbing as fast as possible in a f4, you'll leave the spit IX in dust. But why climb? 109f4 out-maneuvers the Spit IX at any speed even in the hands of an inexperienced pilot.

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