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donatelli

Is there anything that can be done to bring balance to the air game

61 posts in this topic

By the way, I would be more than pleased if you took your bags and moved over to flying the über-spit so that there would be actually some allied air on when I log on and we can all happily fly 109s for which the squad has a preference.

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Best climb rate is borderline, 109f4 climbs better than Spit IX in parts of it climb but mostly: it's best climb speed is like 100km/h faster. So if you are climbing as fast as possible in a f4, you'll leave the spit IX in dust. But why climb? 109f4 out-maneuvers the Spit IX at any speed even in the hands of an inexperienced pilot.

Omg sorry that is 100% wrong what you wrote here.

Spit IX have the best climp speed ingame.

Spit IX is much better in maneuvers then the F4 and the F4 lost "MUCH" more energie for the same maneuvers vs the Spit IX.

And Spit IX have a better tun time then the F4.

And the Spit IX have much more

weapons and better weapons then the F4.

Only the roll rate is somthing better in the F4 vs the Spit IX.

The BGE Wiki say.

"While the Spitfire VB is favored at times by some because it retains an extremely tight turning ability, the Mk IX is really the pinnacle of the line even if it doesn’t turn quite so tight as its older sister. It can still turn tighter than anything else that can go as fast and it enjoys a climb rate unmatched by any other plane in the game. Even the vaunted Bf 109F needs to watch out after the Allied RDP factories introduce the Spitfire Mk IX to a Battleground Europe campaign, since this Spitfire bests it in both speed and climb, the precise advantages it holds before the IX makes its debut."

You can test it at training server all the time. :D

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Omg sorry that is 100% wrong what you wrote here.

Spit IX have the best climp speed ingame.

Spit IX is much better in maneuvers then the F4 and the F4 lost "MUCH" more energie for the same maneuvers vs the Spit IX.

And Spit IX have a better tun time then the F4.

And the Spit IX have much more

weapons and better weapons then the F4.

Only the roll rate is somthing better in the F4 vs the Spit IX.

The BGE Wiki say.

"While the Spitfire VB is favored at times by some because it retains an extremely tight turning ability, the Mk IX is really the pinnacle of the line even if it doesn’t turn quite so tight as its older sister. It can still turn tighter than anything else that can go as fast and it enjoys a climb rate unmatched by any other plane in the game. Even the vaunted Bf 109F needs to watch out after the Allied RDP factories introduce the Spitfire Mk IX to a Battleground Europe campaign, since this Spitfire bests it in both speed and climb, the precise advantages it holds before the IX makes its debut."

You can test it at training server all the time. :D

I don't care what the wiki or anything else says, I know the airplanes in the game in and out, you can trust me.

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For speeds I even have numbers, which are actually fully accurate to what the 1.34 game does, unlike anything you read anywhere else

deck: Spit IX: 545.0 km/h

deck: 109f4: 537.8 km/h

5km: Spit IX: 623.4 km/h

5km: 109f4: 640.7 km/h

For climb rate, Spit IX is marginally better climber (at much lower airspeed!) up to 3km, above they even out and above 4km 109f4 climbs better, with a ceiling at 15km.

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I have test it know 30 min.

I fly a F4 at 5 Km with max speed and aktive WEB.

The plane fly only around 500 km/h at 5km not 640,7 what you wrote here.

Around 30% slower what you wrote here.

You can say what you want, the spit IX is faster and can better climp out and turn better then the F4.

Basta:D

Edited by sajuk

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I have test it know 30 min.

I fly a F4 at 5 Km with max speed and aktive WEB.

The plane fly only around 500 km/h at 5km not 640,7 what you wrote here.

Around 30% slower what you wrote here.

You can say what you want, the spit IX is faster and can better climp out and turn better then the F4.

Basta:D

My numbers are actual true ground speed. Your numbers are silly numbers read off a dial in a cockpit that reads in indicated airspeed as rendered by a game engine. I prefer to know how fast my airplane goes to where the *indicated* airspeed indicator sits. Airspeed indicators haven't shot anyone down yet.

There goes your basta.

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So if you actually want to know the true speed, climb up to 5km, go *directly* E,N,W, or S. trim. Wait. Trim. Wait. Trim, wait some more. Then trim.

Then time with a stop-watch the time it takes your airplane to cross one 16km grid square without any loss of altitude, then time the next one, then the next one. Need a precision to within half a second. Then average out those three numbers and calculate ground speed. If you get a lower number than ours, your controllers are off and your throttle does not deliver maximum power and/or your trim is poorly set.

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I have test it know 30 min.

I fly a F4 at 5 Km with max speed and aktive WEB.

The plane fly only around 500 km/h at 5km not 640,7 what you wrote here.

Around 30% slower what you wrote here.

You can say what you want, the spit IX is faster and can better climp out and turn better then the F4.

Basta:D

Aircraft speedometers are only reflecting accurate speed at sea level, real life and ingame. That is IAS, indicated speed. TAS requires IAS and alt formula to determine ingame.

And if you want to push it to max temp at 5km the 109f4 will hit 648kmph at 5km alt before the engine starts ticking.

Edited by OldZeke

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You mean like how they do it on YouTube video comments ?

NO, I mean what I physically see them do, when I am looking in their direction and when I try to fly and attack one of them.

I turn as sharp as possible and suddenly they are on my 6.

:rolleyes:

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I wasn't talking to you Imded :P

Many Bf109/Me109 pilots in WWIIOL can make the plane turn tighter than it appears capable of doing, because they have mastered throttle and trim control in addition to employing their flaps in a manner most pilots don't understand, let alone try to use.

If a full throttle flat turn in clean configuration, the Messerschmidt isn't going to turn as well as it might otherwise be made to. Once you're a master in it, it's acrobatics in a tight reversal can astonish unwary pilots.

BTW, if anyone wants to argue air-speeds of the aircraft in WWIIOL, don't pick Tigger6 for an opponent. He's very accurate.

Edited by DOC

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For the record, I just logged in for a first time in two weeks or so. There is a single greentag in Hurricane I flying on the allied side. 2 red + 1 yellow square.

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I wasn't talking to you Imded :P

Many Bf109/Me109 pilots in WWIIOL can make the plane turn tighter than it appears capable of doing, because they have mastered throttle and trim control in addition to employing their flaps in a manner most pilots don't understand, let alone try to use.

Once you're a master in it, it's acrobatics in a tight reversal can astonish unwary pilots.

BTW, if anyone wants to argue air-speeds of the aircraft in WWIIOL, don't pick Tigger6 for an opponent. He's very accurate.

Where do I get this "Jedi like" training when I return?

;)

Don't have pedals or trim wheel though...so I guess I'll just stick to staying fast.

:(

ah well..

:)

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I've seen really good pilots like ghost, jester, shadow (still don't know who that guy *really* is :D) and others pull some amazing crap in 109s. Stuff I wouldn't even think of trying. And I fancy myself a *half-way* decent 109-driver when I have a campaign or two of practice under my belt. :)

Thing is: Spitfires are more "intuitive" to fly - 109s (and 190s) take more patience and practice. But they're anything but slow. Be mindful of your plane's "sweetspot"-altitudes and also the alts at which your opponents' planes suck. Try to keep fights at altitudes where you outperform the opposition. When you have to extend, also try to do it within that alt-sweetspot. For instance: I still die needlessly to 38s in my 190 because I stupidly dive all the way to the deck to get away ... and the deck is precisely where the 38 can catch you (if the chase lasts long enough) once you've bled off the excessive speed from your dive.

Plus: Why is everyone up in arms about the Spit IX? If you force them to stay fast, they can't maneuver for $hit. 190's rollrate at speed makes the Spit IX feel like a B-17 in comparison. And if you really want to pi$$ off a Spit IX driver, bring an E-4 and hope he'll accept a turnfight.. :D.

S.

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I have gone on the record many times to reveal that the Spitfire *IS* easier to fly than the 109, in terms of inexperienced intuitiveness. Galland himself said so when he flew one in England after the war. His words (paraphrased) ... "It's simpler, easier to manage at the edge of the flight envelope. Much easier to get off the ground, to yank it around a turn, and to land. The Me109 takes a more expert pilot to exploit it's best characteristics. Our best in a 109 could manage their best in a Spitfire, but if you put two pilots who were not the cream of the crop in them, the Spitfire is going to have the advantage."

I read another German WWII ace say the same basic thing, but I can't recall who it was.

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Something I forgot...:

If all else fails, order this from amazon and read the applicable chapters (no need to go through BVR-tactics or anything other non-prop-related)

Cover%2B-%2BFighter%2BCombat.jpg

Plus it's always a good idea to remember that this is a sim/game, not real life. So write-ups by virtual pilots which include special considerations re. fighter-combat in the sim-world are also recommended. Mingus has a pretty good article linked in his forum-signature.

I would also recommend Doc's guide on the FW 190 from way back when, but I don't think you can get that any longer... :)

S.

Edited by sascha

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I have gone on the record many times to reveal that the Spitfire *IS* easier to fly than the 109, in terms of inexperienced intuitiveness. Galland himself said so when he flew one in England after the war. His words (paraphrased) ... "It's simpler, easier to manage at the edge of the flight envelope. Much easier to get off the ground, to yank it around a turn, and to land. The Me109 takes a more expert pilot to exploit it's best characteristics. Our best in a 109 could manage their best in a Spitfire, but if you put two pilots who were not the cream of the crop in them, the Spitfire is going to have the advantage."

I read another German WWII ace say the same basic thing, but I can't recall who it was.

The bombers are easier to fly too DOC. Go back and forth all you want, but there normally are a lot more allied pilots. Sure, there are times when there are more german planes roaming the sky, but that isn't the norm. When green pilots come into the game, where are they going to go? Flop to the ground and crash or yank the stick around, shoot squishies and have fun? It's just human nature, you know that.

The allies have the sexy planes. Just bring some sexy to the axis, bring the 262. I think you will get pilots to stick it out knowing one day they will rank up to fly it. Want to bring a lot of LW pilots back? Bring that.

Does anyone remember the excitement of new equipment? I tell you what, that first day when they bring a couple of new planes or new tanks, the server is going to rock.

And btw, this game needs US m3 halftrack with a 50 cal mounted on it....just sayin :D

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I would also recommend Doc's guide on the FW 190 from way back when, but I don't think you can get that any longer... :)

S.

I printed it out. In 1998. Still have it somewhere.

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I printed it out. In 1998. Still have it somewhere.

Pffft!

WP_20140510_003_zpsd598d829.jpg

WP_20140510_002_zps5d04b6cf.jpg

;)

S.

Edited by sascha

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I wasn't talking to you Imded :P

Many Bf109/Me109 pilots in WWIIOL can make the plane turn tighter than it appears capable of doing, because they have mastered throttle and trim control in addition to employing their flaps in a manner most pilots don't understand, let alone try to use.

If a full throttle flat turn in clean configuration, the Messerschmidt isn't going to turn as well as it might otherwise be made to. Once you're a master in it, it's acrobatics in a tight reversal can astonish unwary pilots.

BTW, if anyone wants to argue air-speeds of the aircraft in WWIIOL, don't pick Tigger6 for an opponent. He's very accurate.

Talking strictly in terms of game design Doc, here in lies the problem. This is exactly why you get posts with the title of "Is there anything that can be done to bring balance to the air game". To fly a 109 variant properly you need a good joy stick, pedals, and probably track IR. After you have flown a couple hundred hours with those that have mastered it before you to train you, now you are an "expert" who can manipulate the 109 exactly in the way you described above. Contrast that with the Spit on the other hand, grab an old beat up Logitech and go to work. Most people take the path of least resistance. It is inevitable the Allies will have more pilots simply because you do not have to be an expert to fly their planes. I suspect we'll see a greater gap once the game is released on Steam. Last I checked the Allies had over 2000 more sorties than the Axis in the air. I don't if that still holds true, and I don't have the time to add up all the air sorties at the moment.

Add the learning curve of the 109 with the game mechanics and it really gets ugly. Fighting is town centric in WWII Online and favors planes that can turn well at low altitude as they buzz low over towns. The 109s could jump Allied planes using B&Z tactics to keep the skies clear above towns but the game mechanics defeat them. The unlimited supply rotation means there is no way to shoot down enough planes to matter. Allied fighters fly right in amongst their CAS bombers to provide support. Axis fighters are somewhere in between the town and the air field with several kilometers of altitude. Stuka pilots are left on their own to fend for themselves. The dynamic often creates a very unbalanced appearance for Axis pilots. Especially Axis CAS pilots.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not knocking the way the 109s were modeled. I like the historical accuracy. It's just that I also recognize how the game dynamics, which are not true to life, have an effect on how the air war plays out.

Luckily, the air war is essentially irrelevant in the game from both a strategic and tactical stand point after tier 0. Bombing factories has very little effect and is barely worth it. Bombs can total 88s and light armor in tier 0. However, once both sides have start getting the heavy armor they are nothing more that a pretty light show. So for the most part the air guys play the game for their own amusement with little effect on campaign outcome.

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So do spitfires still have invulnerable tail fuselage sections or was that fixed at some point?

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===

So for the most part the air guys play the game for their own amusement with little effect on campaign outcome.

===

Not sure this is true, a couple pilots can nearly shut a FB down from trucks if they have air superiority.

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So do spitfires still have invulnerable tail fuselage sections or was that fixed at some point?

Wasn't that just an issue with the Mk II Spit?

S.

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Saronin: You think I did't understand that before you posted it ?

The tail anomaly on Spitfires is restricted to solely the Mk.IIb. Just so that it is clear (once again) the tail of the IIb is not invulnerable. The anomaly is that the tail doesn't come off the airframe when the damage threshold is reached, that you see with other aircraft including the Spitfire Ia., Vc., and IXc. While I waited for an art fix to the model (it requires that it be rebuilt) we changed the data thresholds to disable inputs to tail control surfaces so that at the point where the tail should be coming off, the tail control surface damage would cause a pilot to pose control of the aircraft.

It's not as good as the tail coming off. The anomaly was originally an artist error when the model was built. I wanted to get it fixed, but I didn't have the call on that happening. Contrary to popular belief, I didn't own or run the company. I just like accurate history being called on what happened, and not the somewhat debatable claims made by people who don't actually know anything but the myth or legend that grew up around it.

Personal bragging rights: When I got drunk with Robert Shaw (Mouse) in Palm Springs at Gunjam's house, I had him sign my copy of Fighter Combat, Tactics and Maneuvering. He did me a real solid favor and asked me to sign the copy of Air to Air Gunfighter he had himself purchased. I wrote that one after The Butcherbirds Guide to a Free Lunch. If I had the manuscripts, or even a copy of the books still, I'd probably re-release them through Amazon.

Edited by DOC

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