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Economy, RDP, easing pop imbalance, and tying it all together

6 posts in this topic

Posting this now as my next few weeks pretty much went sideways and my ability to work on this is limited. Further, more brains working on it has to be better than just mine. So here goes. Also stating officially for the record, my use of "victory Points" is an homage to the old teams. I believe doc, gophur, and killer all talked about VPs at one point or another I hope if they read this it strikes a chord as the original ideas for this sprang from them and this is likely the 50th attempt by me to write this all out.


Get some type of flags back on map that are voluntary and controlled by player(s)/voting

-it's cool to see 'stuff' on the map

-adds some strategy

-enhance squad play - add something squads 'own' and care a great deal about

-add something for HC to do to rally squads/lone wolves into these flags

-flags never 'on' the front.

--meaning flags will always be one link behind and the gear must be driven into the fight.

Alleviate overpop by way of carrots, not sticks

-underpop is rewarded

-overpop is only penalized for failure to RTB.

-Effort against non player entities is 'per capita' (factory bombing, damage against HPPOs, repairing HPPO? etc)

--spend VPs for faster repair? <-- need more thought here

Add some form of fear of death simulation to encourage RTB as an extremely valuable thing to do - but not penalizing for failure to RTB (cept overpop) if mission is otherwise succesful.

Workable economy that isn't a literal analog for real world economy ala WoW with gold/silver/copper and direct purchases of 'stuff'.

- Could in theory be tied to everything that isn't physics based and non player entity

---output, repair times, flag movement

-Encourage events where VPs are earned at a higher rate.

-- factory bombing friday

-- bridge busting hump day

-- etc

Victory Points! how to earn them:

- capture objectives

--area capture goes here too

- kill the enemy

- missions w/o RTB have the ‘cost’ of the tank, plane, ship, or advanced INF weapon system deducted

--rifleman and SMGs are exempt from RTB penalty

--LMG, RPAT, engineer, sniper etc are not <-- no more LMG spam until they're all gone use the right damn tool for the job or accept the VP deduction - its your choice.

---in the future have VPs 'spent' for the loadout. ex rifleman is rifle, ammo, knife, and 2 nades. X VPs = 2 more nades, X more = binos.

- attack strategic targets

- defend strategic targets

-- strategic targets defined as non player entities. factories, ship yards, train yards, hangars/airfields, fuel dumps, bridges, FBs, PPOs etc

two types of VP pools, global and local.

-global pool contributes to the whole of your side’s campaign

-local pool is player specific and can be voluntarily tied to a squad but is never owned by the squad

--group account but the individual ledger is always accessible to the player (leave a squad, ledger follows the player etc)

-local pool is a 'personal garage' of sorts

--squad pool then is a 'group garage'

-garages must be tied to flags, this supply cannot/does not spawn from the global town based supply.

- flags used used to stock pile equipment

--how to make this not suck for the depositors and prevent some jackhole from over drawing?

-when the flags over stock is completely destroyed, squad and individuals therein fall back to accruing VPs via the default town based lists.

-VPs can be accrued whilst within ‘flag spawned gear' but with diminishing returns and harsher penalty for failure to RTB for both over and underpop side.

--the point of this system is to create overstock scenarios and push the map, not to steamroll indefinitely.

--it should take absolute mastery to maintain high levels of premier overstock, virtually impossible.

global pool is used to increase the output of the global default spawnlists - crs always controls this

- decrease resupply ticket time?

--VP expenditure must be maintained or falls back to default

-increase numbers?

--VP expenditure must be maintained or falls back to default

-tie artillery/mortar strikes into the global pool?

--here i'm assuming non 'direct' player controlled arty strikes not entirely unlike red orchestra. give this tool to HC and or AOIC/DOIC?

--prevents spam on a weapon system that has the ability to force rage quits. IMO arty needs to be a potentially painful but mostly thematic/distracting feature. it sucks dying to something 'over the horizon'

---think area denial, force tanks to move, etc.

under-pop gains VPs at a slightly higher rate and reduces the penalty for RTB

-RTB failure scales to total exemption for failure to RTB

overpop is not penalized except for failure to RTB

-RTB penalty for overpop scales to double?

squads can specialize?

-air squads spend less for planes more for tanks

-tank squads less for tanks more for planes

- infatry squads save on RPATs/lmg/snipers and ATGs?

-no specialization has no penalties for any weapon but no savings either.

- hyper specialization?

--airsquad specializes in bombers saving the most on bombers?

--tank hunter squads?

how does hc fit in here? rally squads to flags for attacks?

can HC sponsorship increase VP gained while in VP purchased gear thus temporarily bootsing the steamroll?

I'm sure alot of the above don'est make complete sense so please fire away as it's sorta of all complete in my head but in my head this system literally touches everything and thats a lot to write down all at once.

Basically lets give a few examples.

I spawn in as a LMG lets say that LMG costs 10 VPs.

Scenario 1

I die instantly.

Result, regardless if I am over or underpop my VPs gained is 0 for both my local VP pool and the global Pool. The rifleman that killed me though earns 10VPs cause my LMG is 'worth' 10VPs.

Scenario 2

I kill 4 EI, but fail to RTB.

Result, i earned 4 VPs, however, since I failed to RTB 10VPs are deducted from the mission total resulting in 0 local VPs gained, but, I did gain 4 VPs for the global pool so I added something to the total. unless i am underpop! - if i am underpop that 10VP point deduction may be a 0 point deduction in which case my local pool earned 4 VPs along with the global.

Lets take this further, I killed 4 EI and capped a table. well now I still didn't earn anything for my local pool but maybe I added 14 points to the global VP pool -- unless i'm underpop like above in which case my local pool earns 14 points as well for the 10 point table cap.

table caps are a collective effort as it pertains to the global pool but 'all swim' as it pertains to the local. meaning, a table is only ever worth 10 points globally but each member that contributes earns 10. could easily diminish these returns for the overpop side and or anything beyond X participants.

Scenario 3:

I grape rob and run over 15 EI and have the mission of my life defending a strategic objective, the cap building for 15 minutes. I also RTB

now the result is, i earn 15 points for the EI, lets say I get 5 point per 5 minutes of defending, and i rtb so there is no deduction. My personal VP pool then gets 30 points as does the global pool. or does it, again the global needs to receive less than the local here otherwise the global pool will earn at an unreasonable rate.

all numbers are example only.

now, even if I NEVER accrue a single personal victory point for my local pool i can ALWAYS spawn from the global town based lists that are going back in for 1.36. always, at all times, the global town lists are how the game is played. more specifically, we use the default town supply to earn/build up the flag garage lists at which point we use them to smash through or defend targets of our choosing

flags then, as 'garages for overstock' can be used by the players who earned said gear to push attacks or defense. we're talking right now about the pain antwerp may cause, what if we could bring in 4 flags worth of squad earned gear on top of the 4 links we have to twerp? we earned it, we use it how we see fit, and we don't 'need' to ask anyone's permission. maybe we only commit 3 flags, or make it appear that we're commiting 3 flags while attacking around twerp with 2 flags hopefully trapping/confusing the opponents 4 defensive flags?

however - should HC 'sponsorship' where squads voluntarily work together - boost VP gains or diminishing penalties for this flag based gear? my thought is yes, that should be the case and matches with game theory in other games where 'support' roles typically boost the collective instead of the individual.

so help me flesh this out guys, i think this could be a really cool solution to a lot of problems as well as bringing in new options that haven't ever existed

one last thing, this all assumes the existing ticket system and how it functions within the global town based supply remains in tact in principle. CRS would likely tweak numbers a good deal if this ever went live but my presumption is that all the above is a bolt on layer on top of the soon to be 'new' town based supply rule set. further, flag/garages DO NOT resupply via said underlying ticket system ... or do they? perhaps temporarily via some interaction with HC? perhaps via a large expenditure of VPs? lots of different ways to skin the cat when there is an 'economy' of sorts beneath it all.

looking forward to your thoughts.

p.s. one thing i forgot to put. if a campagin goes stale after say X cycles into the highest tier then we could very easily switch to a VP race to X VPs while still allowing for total annihilation of the enemy - whichever comes first. would need to have some sort of total area owned check in here to prevent say a germany backed up to the factories from some how winning the race to total VPs. how much land you own should also be a factor in a race scenario.

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ran out of characters so wanted to add something else.

squad/group garages get a VP spiff. for me, i would limit this to 50ish active participants at which point the spiff diminishes down to 0.

meaning, you and your squad get +1 VPs for every 5 VPs put into the collective up to 50 people depositing VPs into the 'group account'. At say 75 participants you get no bonus.

I dislike mega squads, but, i don't want to kill them. i want the onus to be on we the players to either stick with the mega squad past 50 participants or provide incentive to take the group of people you actually play with from said mega squad and form a new, smaller, much more tight knit new squad that has its own spiff.

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I think this is a good idea in general. I like the approach.

Need more feedback on this guys.

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I've never played any games with a system remotely similar to this.

What I mean is... I've NEVER played WoW or other games that have Economy based rewards such as "gold".

I know that not what you're talking about here. I'm just saying this is all a little confusing to me, because I have no background in this area.

I'm all for incentives. So, yeah. I'm willing to consider something like this.

I guess the BIG question here is... Can a small team like CRS handle the coding this would take?

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this isn't a NOW ask. this is more a ww2ol 2.0 thing. so don't go asking xoom or anyone to commit to any of this. this is a theory discussion.

'economy' is fairly standard these days. some hide it completely, others do things like team fortress 2 where it's less economy and more a community tool. i don't know of a single MMO, apart from ww2ol, that has shipped w/o some sort of economy though but those traditional systems wouldn't work here.

further, economy is a real part of war and i'm trying to capture some of that too. US had the war bonds drive, germany had one of the most impressive recycling programs on earth at any time that i'm aware of. Britain basically mortgaged their souls - including literally giving away some precious tech/secrets to convince the US to join/send help. so please anyone who reads this, i am thinking of those real world things as well here. this isn't an attempt to bolt on magical fairy dust - war costs money.

this isn't about an economy for the sake of 'buying' things either it's ... more and less than that. for the sake of visualization, forget about economy in general and think more "turning the points you earn for a mission" into something more meaningful than purely leveling up your character ... for ... yeah why do we do this again? rank? ... k lol its always been lacking imo - anyway allow those points to be pooled up individually or collectively for the sake of attacking or defending important areas is the part visible to players. behind the scenes all sorts of neat stuff could be done - like

if we're taking these points and using them to pool power, how fast that power can be pooled and how fast it can be dumped is something that can be changed based on a variety of factors - population being the most painful current issue.(what if HC could increase the dump speed?)

tie it to off map 'abilities' like arty strikes that would SUCK if you didn't have a throttle on their frequency. (another button for HC to push? mission leaders? new infantry forward observer role?)

there is talk in another thread here of allowing underpop access to 'uber kit' when balance gets to skewed. with this, just drop/raise the 'price'.

anything you don't understand quote it and i'll explain the half completed theory as best i can. or if you have an example of a game problem now i might be able to suggest how it might work with my proposed economy.


also, while it seems big it may not be (very relative here, anything with an old code base is 'big'). based on conversations in the past with various CRS devs, they have lots of data already. many of you would be surprised how intricate some of the strat layer stuff is, cell host interactions, etc i really miss those private conversations with kfs1. individual weapon 'values' i know exist, there is already a 'ticket system' for resupply. in theory, existing resources could be used as the backend. obviously new code would need to be written but done right i am assuming applicable 'prior art' could/should be used.

or i could be completely off and none of that old stuff is even usable anymore, or we may not even want to use it, etc. could require a ground up re-write idk - i'm not a rat ;-).

Edited by madrebel

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