lipton

Infantry Weapons Tier Progression

22 posts in this topic

I posted this list in another thread. I wanted to add it here.

Here's my ideas on how the infantry weapons should arrive in Tiers.

I think it will help with known Infantry Kit Balance issues.

This is based mostly on weapons IN GAME. I did flesh out the Grenadier Kit to include HE & HEAT rounds for all Countries. But for the most part... this list requires very little new art or coding.

I used the internet to find all the information on dates and such, so... take it as you will.

I believe all is accurate based on actual orders placed or by the Lend Lease program documentation I was able to locate.

I didn't include all weapons; such as the LMG, Sniper, Sapper, Engineer, etc... because some are what they are and won't be changing Tiers anytime soon.

Although, if CRS would FINALLY "fix" the Bren and FM 24/29 to fire from the shoulder and hip while standing, which was historically accurate... THEN this list might need to be re-visited.\

I listed the Original Date produced and logical Tier based on that date or the actual "Order" or "Purchase" Date.

I didn't put Tiers in U.S. list. I think that one is set as is?

 

Axis

Bolt-Action Rifle

Karabiner 98k - Tier 0

Grenadier

Grenadier - Gew SprGr 30 HE RG - 1942 - Tier 0? (Non-Historical for 1940 Tier 0. But for Balance sake...)

Grenadier - GG P40 HEAT RG - 1941 - Tier 0 (GG P40 was issued to the Fallshirmjaeger only, but CRS picked it. That's fine.)

SMG

MP 34 - 1934 - Tier 0

MP 40 - 1940 - Tier 0

Semi -Auto

G 41 - 1941 - Tier 1

G 43 - 1943 - Tier 2

Assault Rifle

Stg 44 - 1944 - Tier 3

 

British

Bold-Action Rifle

Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk1 - Tier 0

Grenadier

Grenadier - Mills N°36 RG - 1916 - Tier 0

Grenadier - No. 68 AT RG - 1940 - Tier 0

SMG

Thompson - 1921 - (Exported 1939) - Tier 0

Sten Gun - 1941 - Tier 0

Semi -Auto

M1 Garand - 1936 - (LL 1941) - Tier 1

M1 Carbine - 1942 - (LL 1942) - Tier 2

Auto Rifle

BAR - 1917 - Tier 3 (To balance with the Stg44)

Exported Post WWI to both the French and British- Therefore...

Should really be Tier 0 to balance fake MG 34 Rambo style

Or... Fix the historical hip/shoulder usability of Bren and FM

 

French

Bolt-Action Rifle

Fusil mle 1936 - Tier 0

Grenadier

Grenadier - Vivien-Bessière HE RG - 1916? - Tier 0

Grenadier- Brandt 50mm HEAT RG - 1940 - Tier 0

SMG

Mas 38 - 1938 - Tier 0

Thompson - 1921 - (Ordered 1939) - Tier 0

Grease Gun - 1943 - Tier 2

Semi -Auto

MAS 40 - 1940 - Tier 1 (Should be Tier 0 but no Semi's in Tier 0?)

M1 Carbine - 1942 - Tier 2

Auto Rifle

BAR - 1917 - Tier 3 (To balance with the Stg44)

Exported Post WWI to both French and British- Therefore...

Should really be Tier 0 to balance fake MG 34 Rambo style

Or... Fix the historical hip/shoulder usability of Bren and FM

 

United States

Bolt-Action Rifle

M1903 Springfield

Grenadier

Grenadier - M17 HE RG - 1940

Grenadier - M9A1 HEAT RG - 1940

SMG

Thompson - 1921 -

Grease Gun - 1943 -

Semi -Auto

M1 Garand - 1936

M1 Carbine - 1942

Auto Rifle

BAR - 1917

A few final comments...

Yes. I included the M1 Carbine in Tier 2 for the Brits and French. That time line is historically accurate for the Brits and probable for the French in our "Alternate History" game.

It would also be the same Tier as the G43 is introduced. So balance is maintained.

IMHO, the BAR should be introduced in Tier 0 for the Brits AND the French.

It was actually purchased and used by both countries beginning in the 1920's.

I'm sure they didn't have thousands of them, but they DID have them and they DID use them.

Since historical production numbers are irrelevant in our "Alternate History" game... it makes sense to include it.

Or... As was "historically accurate"... FIX the Bren and FM to fire from the shoulder and hip when standing. They were SAW's, not LMG's.

I STILL think the M2 Carbine should be added when the Stg44 is added.

It seems logical and practicle. Both are select fire and 30rd magazines. And the Carbine is already modeled. Well, except for the wrong stock that is being included on the M1.

It should also have the wooden stock from the get-go and be "Historically" used by WAY more than just Paras.

I also think the Winchester Model 12 Trench Gun should be added as soon as possible. But that's in a perfect world. ;)

Edited by lipton

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I have wondered why tanks, planes and ATGs progress through the tiers, but infantry do not. I like this idea; who knows, maybe when they add a few more boats, then maybe they could progress the navy too!

Just my dirty little ho.

;-)

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I have wondered why tanks, planes and ATGs progress through the tiers, but infantry do not. I like this idea; who knows, maybe when they add a few more boats, FRUs, bases/CP and PPO designs, then maybe they could progress the navy, trafficked structures, and combat engineered objects too!

Just my dirty little ho.

;-)

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Hello Lipton, how was your day?

... the Bren and FM to fire from the shoulder and hip when standing. They were SAW's, not LMG's.

Actually the British Bren and French FM24/29 are Light Machine Guns (LMG) and Squad Automatic Weapons (SAW). A LMG is what they were designed as. An intermediate sized, man portable Machine Gun. LMG is a WWI designation for this weapon class. This held true till the general introduction of the General Purpose Machine Gun (GPMG) post WWII. A SAW is a post WWII weapon class which includes LMG's and GPMG's.

Squad Automatic Weapon's (SAW) include the following as well:

US: BAR, M1919A6 and M1941 Johnson; French: Chauchat; German: MG34 and MG42; British: Lewis Gun; Soviet: Degtyaryov machine gun

Post-War: West German: MG3; US: M60 and later the M249/FN Minima; British: L7/FN Mag; Soviet RPD, RPK and PK.

This is just a selection as the full list is quiet extensive.

Therefore to make the claim that the Bren and the FM24/29 are SAW's (for which they do qualify for, unreservedly) and therefore should be able "to fire from the shoulder and hip when standing" does also indicate that the MG34 should be able to do the same. It is also a SAW.

Something to consider; The BAR and the FG42 are Automatic Rifles and not really LMGs, although they are used that way in-game. Also, the MG34 isn't really an LMG either. It is a GPMG.

Now on the other hand, if you were to just say:

"The Bren and the FM24/29, when handled by a trained soldier, should be able to fire from the shoulder and hip when standing, just as the BAR and FG42 is currently able to."

I could accept this. Attempting to move the Bren and FM24/29 into another category, just to prevent the MG34 from having the same functionality, is at best a deception. All I would add is, the Bren itself is fairly weighty and is serviced by a crew of 2 however.

Cheers

James10

Edited by james10

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I have wondered why tanks, planes and ATGs progress through the tiers, but infantry do not. I like this idea; who knows, maybe when they add a few more boats, FRUs, bases/CP and PPO designs, then maybe they could progress the navy, trafficked structures, and combat engineered objects too!

Well, the inf do progress through teirs. Semi autos are added to T1. Bazookas/Shreks are added in T2. FG42 added to paras. T3 adds more semi autos (m1 Garand,G43) and adds the BAR/FG42.

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Well, the inf do progress through teirs. Semi autos are added to T1. Bazookas/Shreks are added in T2. FG42 added to paras. T3 adds more semi autos (m1 Garand,G43) and adds the BAR/FG42.

Yeah, but this thread was about changing up when equipment is introduced to reflect ACTUAL production dates and better BALANCE.

Also, I changed the German Grenadier HEAT round to the one CRS is planning to add.

Personally, I think my original suggestion (Gew 30 HEAT) was a better choice. A little more historically accurate and a better HEAT round.

Edited by lipton

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fify

Axis

Bolt-Action Rifle

Karabiner 98k - Tier 0

Grenadier

Grenadier - Gew SprGr 30 HE RG - 1942 - Tier 2

Grenadier - grosse Gewehrpanzergranate - 1942 - Tier 2

SMG

MP 34 - 1934 - Tier 0

MP 40 - 1940 - Tier 0

Semi -Auto

G 41 - 1941 - Tier 1

G 43 - (should be para and regular units) 1943 - Tier 3

Assault Rifle

Stg 44 - 1944 - Tier 3

fg42 - (paras only) 1942 - Tier 3

British

Bold-Action Rifle

Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk1 - Tier 0

Grenadier

Grenadier - Mills N°36 RG - 1916 - Tier 0

Grenadier - No. 68 AT RG - 1940 - Tier 0

SMG

Thompson Model 1928(drum mag) - 1928 - (Exported 1939) - Tier 0

Sten Mk II - 1941 - Tier 1

Sten Mk IIS - (paras only) 1941 - Tier 1

Auto Rifle

make the bren fire like the BAR

French

Bolt-Action Rifle

Fusil mle 1936 - Tier 0

Grenadier

Grenadier - Vivien-Bessière HE RG - 1916? - Tier 0

Grenadier- Brandt 50mm HEAT RG - 1940 - Tier 0

SMG

Mas 38 - 1938 - Tier 0

Auto Rifle

MAS 40 - 1940 - Tier 1

make the fn24/29 fire like the BAR

United States

Bolt-Action Rifle

M1903 Springfield

Grenadier

Grenadier - M17 HE RG - 1940

Grenadier - M9A1 HEAT RG - 1940

SMG

Thompson - 1921 -

Grease Gun - 1943 -

Semi -Auto

M1 Garand - 1936

M1 Carbine - (should be para and regular units) 1942

Auto Rifle

BAR - 1917

Edited by berzerkr

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The thing is, the FG42 is an excellent weapon and it would be a real shame to just have it as a para only weapon.

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The thing is, the FG42 is an excellent weapon and it would be a real shame to just have it as a para only weapon.

Historical realism matters to the game's market-differentiation from the mass shooters.

We can't compete with the big guys nose-to-nose...they have a several-thousand-times bigger marketing and development budget. That'd be suicidal.

This is "guerilla marketing", in which the little guy identifies a small piece of the big guy's customer base that wants something special that's too much trouble for the big guy to deliver. For CRS, that differentiator for many customers has been better historical and physics realism.

FG42 historically was developed by the Luftwaffe Weapons Lab and available only to paratroops. So, that's how the game should handle it.

Edited by jwilly

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Grenadier - grosse Gewehrpanzergranate - 1942 - Tier 2

Nominal first manufacturing in very late 1942, but first fielded in 1943, i.e. T3. For a T2 intro and fireability from the same launcher as the HE RG, the small 30mm HEAT RG is the only fit.

Bolt-Action Rifle

Fusil mle 1936 - Tier 0

Grenadier

Grenadier - Vivien-Bessière HE RG - 1916? - Tier 0

Grenadier- Brandt 50mm HEAT RG - 1940 - Tier 0

The VB could not be fired from the Mle1936. It could only be fired from the Lebel. But, the Brandt required the Mle1936, and could not be fired from the Lebel.

The only choice for a French HE RG if the Brandt HEAT RG and the Mle1936 are to be modeled is the (already modeled) 50mm mortar shell. It fit and fired from the same Mle1936 rifle adapter as the Brandt.

Ditto for the 50mm smoke mortar shell.

Grenadier - M9A1 HEAT RG - 1940

The M9A1 wasn't fielded until 1944. The much-worse-performing M9 was first fielded in 1941. Take your pick, but don't choose the performance of one and the date of the other.

Edited by jwilly

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Nominal first manufacturing in very late 1942, but first fielded in 1943, i.e. T3. For a T2 intro and fireability from the same launcher as the HE RG, the small 30mm HEAT RG is the only fit.

Its the same as the fg42 and reason why i placed the fg under tier3 but i feel if this was tier3 i would rather see the panzerfaust, the GG/P 40 would be tier1 but to paras only.

The VB could not be fired from the Mle1936. It could only be fired from the Lebel. But, the Brandt required the Mle1936, and could not be fired from the Lebel.

The only choice for a French HE RG if the Brandt HEAT RG and the Mle1936 are to be modeled is the (already modeled) 50mm mortar shell. It fit and fired from the same Mle1936 rifle adapter as the Brandt.

Ditto for the 50mm smoke mortar shell.

Isn't the VB ingame for the french right now? i wouldnt mind seeing two type of french grenadiers if thats the case

The M9A1 wasn't fielded until 1944. The much-worse-performing M9 was first fielded in 1941. Take your pick, but don't choose the performance of one and the date of the other.

im choosing performance because i picked the Gew.Pz.Gr.Grosse or panzerfaust

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jwilly said:

The M9A1 wasn't fielded until 1944. The much-worse-performing M9 was first fielded in 1941. Take your pick, but don't choose the performance of one and the date of the other.

The M9 HEAT RG was produced in 1939 and it's initial year of service was 1941.

I haven't located an ACTUAL "fielded" date for the M9A1, but I did read were they changed the paint color from yellow to green in 1943. So, based on that... I assume it was fielded before 1944 and probably around 1942?

As I explained, in my original post... the dates listed are the original PRODUCTION dates. I used these dates because we have at least one weapon in game that NEVER saw action, only production. It opens up more possibilities of introducing new equipment of French design in the future.

Final note. I stated in my original post that the German RG's were produced in 1941/42 , but for "balance" reasons should be introduced in Tier 0 like all the other RG's.

You'll notice that I also mentioned that he Mas40 was originally produced in 1940 and based on that date, could be added in Tier 0. But for balance sake it is a Tier 1 suggested introduction.

I will continue to recommend that CRS introduce the M1 Carbine in Tier 1 for Brit and French, as it was historically Lend Leased to the Brits in 1941 and would have theoretically been offered to the French in the same way. It would also give the Brits a Semi-Auto to go along with the M1 Garand they Lend Leased during the Battle of Britain. Axis get 2 Semi's. Why shouldn't the Bits and French?

It should then be upgraded to the M2 Carbine when the STG44 is introduced.

This is also my reasoning behind giving the Brits and French the BAR in Tier 0. They both did in FACT have the BAR before the start of WWII.

And how 'bout some Winchester Model 12 Trench Gun lovin already.

It would help to "calm the waters" over the STG44 / M1(2) Carbine imbalance.  But as usual, the Axis get the luvin.  ;)

Edited by lipton

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3 hours ago, delems said:

Was the USA ever to get a shotgun?

 

Well they had model 12's and 87's but i dont think they made any notable use of them in europe in WWII
We have no trenches, so you cant jump into the trench and charge enemy infantry slam firing them.
Might find some in the asian/pacific theater, they were used in the jungles and such, but we arent fighting there.

 

.....Yet

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No Berthier or Lebel riflemen? For shame!

 

Also, a balance idea for the MG 34 would be to give the axis a different LMG to match the Allied ones. The ZB vs. 26, or MG 30 would both make idea candidates as they are quite similar to the MG 34. Thus both sides would have a light and a "medium" machine gun.

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8 hours ago, merlin51 said:

We have the lebel

For grenadiers yes, For riflemen no. I'd like to see France with three types of Riflemen; MAS36, Berthier, and Lebel. All three were used in the BoF.

Berthier isn't terribly justifiable considering the dev time but the Lebel could be done in an hour tops.

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10 hours ago, muromachi said:

For grenadiers yes, For riflemen no. I'd like to see France with three types of Riflemen; MAS36, Berthier, and Lebel. All three were used in the BoF.

Berthier isn't terribly justifiable considering the dev time but the Lebel could be done in an hour tops.

For the berthier, i agree, its not terribly great.

It would take more than an hour though to do a liebel rifleman.
Artwise yes easy, its already done.
But you have to code a 2nd rifleman to the french spawn entries, code the loadout, code it into supply/rdp, code it into stats.
And requires a client modification and recompile.
Easy addition yes, hour addition, you'll be disappointed.

I would imagine that would be something thought about at a much future date when we are playing a game of flesh out the tiers
once big ticket items have been accomplished

For giggles axis could have GEW88's appear in Tier 4 (irl iirc they ran low on rifles and pulled them out of moth balls)
gew88_R.jpg
And toss in some KAR88 cavalry rifles for city combat

DSCN0758.JPG

Not sure how well the axis would like them? I have a KAR88 and a GEW88, i like the KAR best

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