Quincannon

Den Haag: Naval RDP Target

35 posts in this topic

Hi Folks!

I was thinking about the fact that of all the services, the Navy seems to have the biggest disconnect with the Campaign, especially, as it seems that, unless they are fighting in the Zees, the only real option is on the rivers.

So how do we create a Navy situation where the Navy can have a real effect on the Campaign itself?

My suggestion is to make Den Haag an RDP target for the Allies.

Since Den Haag tends to be a primary DD port for the entire campaign, it could reasonably be considered a source for Axis naval supply. So, if the town were fleshed out with a full blown naval base containing warehouses that are programmed to affect RDP in the same way factories do, they could be bombed or shelled by Allied naval forces, and have the same effect on Axis supply that Axis raids on Whitstable do.

This idea would give Allied ship Captains a target, and a way to let them feel that they are an actual part of the overall campaign. In addition, since Den Haag is not a capturable target, it would allow for naval battles for the entire campaign, long after the Zees and English Channel are out of the picture.

It would definitely give Naval forces on both sides more of a reason to set sail into the North Atlantic than just the desire to see how many ships they can find and sink.

I think it would breathe new life into the Naval game.

I honestly don't know if this has been suggested before... so if it has forgive me for being late to the table.

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Not a bad idea, but nary an allied destroyer would ever get near the place. They'd simply fly bombers there and bomb it and axis would suffer a permanent RDP disadvantage as they have no AF anywhere near. Would be a complete disaster.

If only destroyers could damage that factory, bombers and engrs having no effect, then maybe.

Would also need the port of Den Helder added so Den Haag couldn't be camped, give an opportunity for DDs to come from 2nd direction.

Edited by delems

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Hi Folks!

I was thinking about the fact that of all the services, the Navy seems to have the biggest disconnect with the Campaign, especially, as it seems that, unless they are fighting in the Zees, the only real option is on the rivers.

So how do we create a Navy situation where the Navy can have a real effect on the Campaign itself?

My suggestion is to make Den Haag an RDP target for the Allies.

Since Den Haag tends to be a primary DD port for the entire campaign, it could reasonably be considered a source for Axis naval supply. So, if the town were fleshed out with a full blown naval base containing warehouses that are programmed to affect RDP in the same way factories do, they could be bombed or shelled by Allied naval forces, and have the same effect on Axis supply that Axis raids on Whitstable do.

This idea would give Allied ship Captains a target, and a way to let them feel that they are an actual part of the overall campaign. In addition, since Den Haag is not a capturable target, it would allow for naval battles for the entire campaign, long after the Zees and English Channel are out of the picture.

It would definitely give Naval forces on both sides more of a reason to set sail into the North Atlantic than just the desire to see how many ships they can find and sink.

I think it would breathe new life into the Naval game.

I honestly don't know if this has been suggested before... so if it has forgive me for being late to the table.

I'm down with that, and would even suggest the addition of an airfield (though then it'd be 111's V allied air in cross channel/bombing action rather than a naval focus)so as to allow for air defense. (my line in the sand is a ground flag as then it'd be a never ending engineer spawnathorium to get to the allied factories cross channel)

Edited by B2K

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Not a bad idea, but nary an allied destroyer would ever get near the place. They'd simply fly bombers there and bomb it and axis would suffer a permanent RDP disadvantage as they have no AF anywhere near. Would be a complete disaster.

If only destroyers could damage that factory, bombers and engrs having no effect, then maybe.

Would also need the port of Den Helder added so Den Haag couldn't be camped, give an opportunity for DDs to come from 2nd direction.

Well, I assumed that if this were done, that better shore and air defenses would be put in. I could also see a small Fighter squadron (Not bombers) being placed there just for air defense. I serious;ly doubt that another entire port would be necessary.

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Another thing to consider, Whitstable doesn't effect French RDP. Den Haag will effect all of the Axis. Unless it's only one facility, this won't be a fair compromise.

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Another thing to consider, Whitstable doesn't effect French RDP. Den Haag will effect all of the Axis. Unless it's only one facility, this won't be a fair compromise.

When the Italians arrive it'll balance back out.

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Another thing to consider, Whitstable doesn't effect French RDP. Den Haag will effect all of the Axis. Unless it's only one facility, this won't be a fair compromise.

Why not? True, the Allied RDP is split, but the British and the French RDP combine, ane it should all work out in the end.

RDP works that way now anyway... How would it be less fair?

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====

How would it be less fair?

====

It would be much less fair, as it is currently now:

When axis destroys one Brit factory, allied RDP average goes down by 3.7%

When allies destroys one German factory, axis RDP average goes down by 11.1%

A factory near Den Haag would just exasperate that issue, making it even more unfair.

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====

How would it be less fair?

====

It would be much less fair, as it is currently now:

When axis destroys one Brit factory, allied RDP average goes down by 3.7%

When allies destroys one German factory, axis RDP average goes down by 11.1%

A factory near Den Haag would just exasperate that issue, making it even more unfair.

I thought that there were the same overall number of factories on each side, and that each factory, regardless of location, was worth the same amount of RDP.

It makes no sense, as I thought there were 6 factories on each side, and that destroying one, in theory, would have a 15-16% effect.

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===

I thought that there were the same overall number of factories on each side, and that each factory, regardless of location, was worth the same amount of RDP.

===

There is a saying, I don't know it exactly or where it comes from, but it is something like this: "It is not what you know that hurts you, it is what you think you know, that you don't, that gets you". (this is the reason the pursuit of truth is so important, if one does not have the truth, they can never reason correctly or arrive at the proper conclusion (well, except blind chance)).

There are 18 allied factories and 9 axis factories; the 18 allied factories are 9 brit and 9 french; don't forget brit is 1/3 of the supply on map while french is 2/3 of the supply (army, not navy which is 50/50, unsure about air).

Armed with the correct information, redo your calculations and conclusions.

PS to complicate issues, when USA arrives it changes, USA RDP is calculated as the average of brit and french (as I understand it - even more unclear is if it's a weighted average or simple -- here even I do not know the truth); then, the distribution of army supply is 1/9 brit, 1/9 french, 7/9 USA; navy is 50/50 brit, french and again unsure on air.

Edited by delems

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On 7/26/2016 at 4:58 PM, Quincannon said:

I thought that there were the same overall number of factories on each side, and that each factory, regardless of location, was worth the same amount of RDP.

It makes no sense, as I thought there were 6 factories on each side, and that destroying one, in theory, would have a 15-16% effect.

Each nation has 9 factories (except USA).

That means allies (UK + France) get 18 factories, while Germany gets 9.

 

And while I support the idea of DH as naval taget, you also need to have an allies counterpart (already have in Whitstable), DH will need an Airfield, AND the travel distance is roughly the same.

Balance on both sides.

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This idea is ridiculous.

You would need to add like 30 shore batteries to come even close to the number near Whitstable.  You'd also need an AF right next to it... like Whitstable.  Then you'd need some 30 more AI AA batteries.  Finally, you would never see an allied destroyer near it, just squadrons of bombers flying up from Vliss or Antwerp and possibly England.

RDP is already egregiously slanted against axis by 2 to 1 with the current factory layout.  Do none of you know how to calculate stuff and reason?

Now, I suppose if the said factory was immune to air strikes, and had an AB (to defend against engrs), it might promote some navy action.

Edited by delems

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4 hours ago, delems said:

This idea is ridiculous.

You would need to add like 30 shore batteries to come even close to the number near Whitstable.  You'd also need an AF right next to it... like Whitstable.  Then you'd need some 30 more AI AA batteries.  Finally, you would never see an allied destroyer near it, just squadrons of bombers flying up from Vliss or Antwerp and possibly England.

RDP is already egregiously slanted against axis by 2 to 1 with the current factory layout.  Do none of you know how to calculate stuff and reason?

Now, I suppose if the said factory was immune to air strikes, and had an AB (to defend against engrs), it might promote some navy action.

I understand your point, Delems. I even looked to try to see if there was ever any sort of sub base at Den Haag, but I couldn't find anything. My thought was thet a hardened 'submarine base' would have made a tempting target for Allied Navy, but prove pretty much impossible to destroy by air. Unfortunately, while the Axis has a Naval presence, it wasn't anything that  would really have been considered a hardened target.

 

4 hours ago, delems said:

This idea is ridiculous.

You would need to add like 30 shore batteries to come even close to the nuer near Whitstable.  You'd also need an AF right next to it... like Whitstable.  Then you'd need some 30 more AI AA batteries.  Finally, you would never see an allied destroyer near it, just squadrons of bombers flying up from Vliss or Antwerp and possibly England.

RDP is already egregiously slanted against axis by 2 to 1 with the current factory layout.  Do none of you know how to calculate stuff and reason?

Now, I suppose if the said factory was immune to air strikes, and had an AB (to defend against engrs), it might promote some navy action.

I understand your point, Delems. I even looked to try to see if there was ever any sort of sub base at Den Haag, but I couldn't find anything. My thought was thet a hardened 'submarine base' would have made a tempting target for Allied Navy, but prove pretty much impossible to destroy by air. Unfortunately, while the Axis has a Naval presence, it wasn't anything that  would really have been considered a hardened target.

 

 

 

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*** my line in the sand is a ground flag as then it'd be a never ending engineer spawnathorium to get to the allied factories cross channel

This makes absolutely no sense at all in any way shape or form.  Ludicrous comes to mind.  No one is going to spawn engrs from Den Haag to England, when we can just spawn from Helle.....

We been able to do this for 10+ years now..  In all my years here, I've seen it done maybe 2 to 4 times.  As about as a pure navy guy as there was the last few years, I've never even done it myself.  It is the last thing one would ever worry about regarding anything to do with game, naval or otherwise imo.

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*** I understand your point, Delems. I even looked to try to see if there was ever any sort of sub base at Den Haag

Well, more navy action would be fun.  But not with RDP at Den Haag.

Couple sub bases somewhat close would be Bergen (though, think just off N of map, so maybe could use Haugesund to represent it), Kristiansand, and Horten.

They were the 5th, 12th and 13th most important u-boat bases for operations.

I'm pretty sure S-boats operated out of Den Helder, could make for a possible target too.

Other key uboat bases would be Kiel (wrong spot on our map and not deep water), Brest (not deep water on our map) and Wilhelmshaven;  - 1st, 4th and 6th most important sub bases for operations; but they would be hard to integrate into play with distances to them. (still be nice to have them on map correctly though)

Edited by delems

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1 hour ago, delems said:

*** I understand your point, Delems. I even looked to try to see if there was ever any sort of sub base at Den Haag

Well, more navy action would be fun.  But not with RDP at Den Haag.

Couple sub bases somewhat close would be Bergen (though, think just off N of map, so maybe could use Haugesund to represent it), Kristiansand, and Horten.

They were the 5th, 12th and 13th most important u-boat bases for operations.

I'm pretty sure S-boats operated out of Den Helder, could make for a possible target too.

Other key uboat bases would be Kiel (wrong spot on our map and not deep water), Brest (not deep water on our map) and Wilhelmshaven;  - 1st, 4th and 6th most important sub bases for operations; but they would be hard to integrate into play with distances to them. (still be nice to have them on map correctly though)

i understand. On the other hand, If the Allies don't get a Naval RDP target, why does the Axis? I have never understood why this unbalanced situation exists. I know you have talked about the disparity of the numbers of factories, but the fact remains that the game is set up where Axis Navy has a mission target that can have an effect on the war, and the Allied Navy gets, in relation... ZIP.

Now before someone brings up things like convoys, I want to point out that such things require an effective AI, and an amount of resources that would not be liktly to garner a decent return for the effort.

TBH, I really feel at times that Navy should have it's own system similar to rdp,  that affects the war, making naval missions an integral part of the war.

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What about tying in big  and mid range RR stations into the RDP mix . More targets for Bombers more things to do for the Airboys then just bombing FBs, UMs and FMS

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10 hours ago, delems said:

*** my line in the sand is a ground flag as then it'd be a never ending engineer spawnathorium to get to the allied factories cross channel

This makes absolutely no sense at all in any way shape or form.  Ludicrous comes to mind.  No one is going to spawn engrs from Den Haag to England, when we can just spawn from Helle.....

We been able to do this for 10+ years now..  In all my years here, I've seen it done maybe 2 to 4 times.  As about as a pure navy guy as there was the last few years, I've never even done it myself.  It is the last thing one would ever worry about regarding anything to do with game, naval or otherwise imo.

It makes perfect sense if you pause for a second and re-read the thread before where the original comment was.  

IF an airfield is put into den haag

AND IF engineers are able to spawn - a likely outcome will be engineers flying over to sap the factories (which the allies do to Frankfurt on occasion).  Yes you can spawn from Helle - but anything there has to float over - flying takes a bit, but is significantly faster than boat travel. 

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***  flying takes a bit, but is significantly faster than boat travel

Flying engrs to England is completely worthless (more so than sailing engrs over), AF in Den Haag or not. So you fly 8 engrs over, they all succeed in placing charges.  (not that easy considering AWS and AA AI)  Then they MIA as unable to rearm HE or RTB.

All you've accomplished is damaging allied factories by 0.296%......  That is 2 minutes and 30 seconds supply delay....  And the factory repair rate would have it repaired in 4 minutes and 26 seconds...   Hardly worth the what, 30 min flight???  (not to mention tying up 9 people for some time)

Trust me when I say, engrs going to England is the last thing one ever has to worry about in regards to game features.

Edited by delems

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*** i understand. On the other hand, If the Allies don't get a Naval RDP target, why does the Axis?

Maybe the same reason allies never have the option to invade a foreign shore across a sea?  Game design.

Edited by delems

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Along the lines of sub bases - putting a factory facility in Wilhelmshaven, Kristiansand and Horten (along with deep water port and AB) might work.  But, we have no AFs nearby to defend with.

Another option might be, with town supply, is only have say 6 DDs per deep water port.  And their resupply time like 240 hours (or refill when tier changes).  Then, the close ports would run out of DDs, and give reason for people to sail in resupply - and thus a reason for other DDs to interdict?  One issue there, is allies have many more ports I think and are closer, so would need Den Helder, Wilhelmshaven, Kristiansand and Horton added to help offset that.

 

Another variation on the town supply might be.  All deep water ports get like 6 DDs to start, and no resupply for the entire map.  But, each side gets one 'home port', with say 12 DDs, that resupplies at normal RDP timers.  Brits would be Scapa Flow, German Kiel, not sure French.  Then, both sides would have to run DDs to their ports (once close ports DDs sunk), kinda like a relay, to resupply them (German could go Kiel, Kristiansand, Wilhelmshaven, Den Helder, Den Haag, Helle).  Not sure we have enough dedicated navy players, though, maybe this would increase the numbers, but that might be an interesting option and give lots of chances for navy action.  A just captured deep water port would get 'new' DD supply like other units in a town.

 

To encourage resupply, make rank to use DD dependent on where the port is in the chain of supply.  So, rank 1 to sail out of Kiev, rank 2 to sail out of Kristiansand, rank 3 to sail out of Wilhelmshaven... till rank 5.  And give some rank points for resupply of DD.

 

Edited by delems

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Why not make AI convoys, of  transport ships, running around the coast of the UK and between UK france and for germans, between somewhere far up north too the zees? let dd captains hunt convoys.

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11 minutes ago, optik said:

Why not make AI convoys, of  transport ships, running around the coast of the UK and between UK france and for germans, between somewhere far up north too the zees? let dd captains hunt convoys.

It's on my wish list, I think it would add a serious new dimension to naval game play. I just don't know the feasibility, we certainly don't have the ability to divert resources to it until we get onto Steam, like many things.

I need more full time devs dag nabbit!

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*** Why not make AI convoys

That would be great, but as zoom says, takes coding to do that.  I'm trying to come up with ways using our existing code (terrain/ports, resupply, RDP, etc.) to make the navy game more fun.  Adding ports should be relatively easy, we have many in game already and adjusting the RDP tickets for DD may be easy, then adjusting supply numbers can create a whole new outlook for the navy.

The idea basically being make DDs a relatively scare item, so both sides will want to hunt them to eliminate them; but allow resupply which could be interdicted.

Edited by delems

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1 hour ago, optik said:

Why not make AI convoys, of  transport ships, running around the coast of the UK and between UK france and for germans, between somewhere far up north too the zees? let dd captains hunt convoys.

why should someone use DDs for it ? it is faster and more deadly to simply spawn a DB7 and suicide bomb the ships then ...

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