brandl

Repair Vehicles?

23 posts in this topic

Maybe the idea isnt new, but why cant Engineers repair vehicles?

They can repair Bridges and KI...but damaged tanks are valuable while limited, so shouldnt they be able to repair them?

At least broken tracks or a damaged Motor so the tank can RTB. Im sure the tankcrew would be very thankful because they still cant leave the tank and RTB by foot.

 

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Maybe, but it has to be a discussion about the required timer (or number of "kits") needed to make the repair work happens. We should not see a tank magically repaired from one second to the next.

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How long does it take to repair a Bridge?  Honest I do not know but in game it's a whole lot faster then in real life that's for sure. 

So let's say a track repair takes 20 repair packs from an Engineer and an Engine 30 packs. 

Now u need to find a player that will come out to you and do so . I think that is the harder thing to overcome then figuring out how long and how many repair packs you would need. 

I think it's easily implemented in the game if CRS would want to , but do we have enough dedicated players?

Just look how hard it is to get a tow in game and I do have to say the Allies are awesome in that aspect of it. 

Just my 2cents.

 

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I'd go as far as repairing a 'non killed tank' so not repairing blown engine, not repairing, double tracked, single track only, as that now is not a kill.

 

 

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Perhaps we could have new game mechanics simulating vehicles getting "bogged down" in forest terrain  and on rainy days,  and also have vehicle  "mechanical failures" . 

And repair vehicle could simulate freeing up the vehicles in these type of situations.   It would be realistic.

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Before that happens we need tanks actually going over those stone walls taking down trees and going through buildings and not flipping on these said road hazards.

Also an Inf feeling save between building walls is laughable too , an AP should do the trick ;). 

I could get behind the one track repair even both as I like to drive the Stug and without at least on track Stug is useless. 

So having said that dual detracking would not be counted as a kill any longer. 

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Use trucks. Trucks already have an area-of-effect coded in to them for ammunition resupply. When a truck goes near a tank start a timer and reset the damage state on the tank tracks/motor after a reasonable ingame time passes.

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This. It is by far the easiest to implement, but balancing timers would have to be fiddled with. Consider a truck is pretty way to kill in the middle of a tank fight.  Would anyone like to be camped by a S76 or tiger that auto repairs itself tho?

Edited by droptow
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On 9/20/2016 at 7:15 PM, brandl said:

Maybe the idea isnt new, but why cant Engineers repair vehicles?

They can repair Bridges and KI...but damaged tanks are valuable while limited, so shouldnt they be able to repair them?

At least broken tracks or a damaged Motor so the tank can RTB. Im sure the tankcrew would be very thankful because they still cant leave the tank and RTB by foot.

 

CRS try it but never managed to make repair work correctly in the game.. at least when it came to tank tracks repairs.. So it never was implement.

Edited by pbveteran

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In a tactical timeframe, substantive repair of anything is wildly unrealistic. Repair of tanks, repair of bridges, healing of soldiers. All unrealistic.

There should be no bridge repair process. Instead engineers should install pontoon bridges near downed permanent bridges. That'd be realistic.

Tank repair doesn't happen near combat. No one in their right mind would stand outside a tank that was disabled already by enemy fire and therefore remains within enemy fire range, and work on whatever is broken. Tanks get repaired after the battle, by the side that holds the battlefield. Or they get towed back to a repair depot, same difference. During the battle, they should sit there empty, abandoned by their crew.

Soldiers don't get healed during battles either. Medics should stabilize wounded soldiers so they can be moved off the battlefield still alive, and (implicitly) evacuated to a rear area hospital. 

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a tracked tank wasn't always 100% lost, a tracked matty is the same as killing it in the game.

 

giving them a "Rescue token" instead of a MIA from medic's and engineers would be good.

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14 hours ago, major0noob said:

a tracked tank wasn't always 100% lost, a tracked matty is the same as killing it in the game.

 

That would be false when it came to track repair and even damaged track wheels this could be repair on the field (without the need of recovery vehicles especially if the zone was undercontrol) and the tank crew members could do this with ease, depending on the damage it could take between 30mins to 3 hours .. Most panzers carried spare wheels and tracks on themselves. And when it came to the German side mid and late war many repairs were done on the field(not on the battlefield, but on reserve territory and ZoC and field repair shops) including replacing entire tank turrets, engines and suspensions with specialized vehicles for that.

16 hours ago, jwilly said:

In a tactical timeframe, substantive repair of anything is wildly unrealistic. Repair of tanks, repair of bridges, healing of soldiers. All unrealistic.

There should be no bridge repair process. Instead engineers should install pontoon bridges near downed permanent bridges. That'd be realistic.

Tank repair doesn't happen near combat. No one in their right mind would stand outside a tank that was disabled already by enemy fire and therefore remains within enemy fire range, and work on whatever is broken. Tanks get repaired after the battle, by the side that holds the battlefield. Or they get towed back to a repair depot, same difference. During the battle, they should sit there empty, abandoned by their crew.

Soldiers don't get healed during battles either. Medics should stabilize wounded soldiers so they can be moved off the battlefield still alive, and (implicitly) evacuated to a rear area hospital. 

This argument makes me sick , it's so backward and lack any real thought or understanding of what a game is and what isn't... Warthunder tank game is much better than WW2ol and it has repairs... this being a more realistic game and with larger and a seamless map some smaller repairs could be done by the tank crew alone like repairing tracks and more significant would required a heavy truck and more time.

There is a huge gameplay design flaw when it comes to tanking, too often you are required to make over +20min ride to go to a battle and if you get detrack even with all crew members alive and the rest of tank working, those 20mins were wasted and you are also forced to despawn and loose the vehicle, the same applies to have the gunner dead or driver but still have the tank operational, you should be able to switch for example the radioman to the driver or gunner... also degunning must be removed from the game it's so silly...

 

"On 17. January 1944, during a night operation, she continued showing extreme prowess, taking out several artillery nests and a self-propelled gun. However, an anti-tank gunner managed to score a hit into the tank’s tracks. Defying orders yet again, she jumped out of the tank and started making repairs right in the middle of enemy territory. This time, unfortunately, another shell hit the tank, exploding into fragments. One of them hit Mariya in the head, and she fell into a coma. "

https://warthunder.com/en/news/2788-ace-tanker-mariya-vasilyevna-oktyabrskaya-en/ 

Was it stupid? yes... but if she exit the tank and started making repairs it means she was comfortable with that procedure and probably similar things had be done.. If you know the least about WW2 soldiers, you would know a lot done very stupid things, some succeeded others died but many of those are branded as heroes..

I also found out about this thread on WoT, the last comment seems to be the most knowledgeable about the specific German and USSR tracks.

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/245027-how-do-you-repair-a-track-on-a-real-tank/page__st__20#topmost

 

My view on tank repairs and tank recovery:

- Tracks should be repairable by tank crew should take 10-15mins a hvy truck that would park near it would reduce the repair time by 50%.

- White and orange smoke could be repair by the tank crew similar timer, truck again would reduce by 50%.

- Engine Disable, Turret could only be repair with truck between 10-20mins.

- Any truck, heavy or not could replace any killed crew member this would take 60 secs or so.

- With a heavy truck park near you, you could RES the tank and it would get back to the pool after X time, there should be a timer for Rescuing the tank so players could immediately leave the game 5 minutes seems fair.

- when a crew died switching back and forth from his seat would take around 20 secs.

 

My view on Soldier healing:

For me when it comes to soldier healing, it wouldn't see the need for medic but you should at least clear the blurry vision with a first aid kit but kept the penalty to running and spiriting.

 

Some photos of on field repairs:

tumblr_lt6r424ehr1qg5z8jo1_500.gif

PzKpfw_III_during_the_repair_of_engine.j

Seems like a track repair on a recent battlefield

wQEa518.jpg

02_russia__repair_of_one_panzer_v_by_wolpz12-8-Panzer4GH-repair.jpgd330047cb385ae5e206f4b6d5d4560bb.jpg7ab325946e3d9d1684268ad78bd52992.jpg

2916d0cf2ed74e795b4996c21dc4c7ce.jpg

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It is certainly a great idea. It would add some serious changes to game play.

The hard part would be recoding the kills. If someone gets tracked and repaired that shouldnt be a kill.

The questions start coming in like this:

How many times can a track be repaired?
Does it slow down a tank after being repaired?
can a double track be repaired?
How long does it take to repair?
Should it be repaired by a truck or a engineer?

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5 hours ago, FOHDRON said:

It is certainly a great idea. It would add some serious changes to game play.

The hard part would be recoding the kills. If someone gets tracked and repaired that shouldnt be a kill.

The questions start coming in like this:

How many times can a track be repaired?
Does it slow down a tank after being repaired?
can a double track be repaired?
How long does it take to repair?
Should it be repaired by a truck or a engineer?

My 5 cents as a self-propelled gun commander in the past.

Track can be repaired as many times, as many spare track links do you have. It's usually attached outside the armor and works as additional 5mm protection in the battle.

As long as wheels and transmissions have not been damaged, repaired track will be like new, i.e. doesn't slow the tank down.

The hardest thing is not to replace the damages link with a new one. The problem is to roll the track back on wheels. Usually all tracked vehicles use a leading star-like wheel to roll the track back on, but if the tank run out of track completely, the process became really painful.

It takes about 20 minutes to fix the broken track, if the vehicle still stands on it and you have at least 3 crew members alive. If the tank run out from track completely and you don't have at least 2 crew members alive, I think it's impossible to put the track back on.

You definitely don't need an engineer for that: our crew members were trained to replace broken track by themselves. But you need an engineer track with crane to fix broken wheels or light transmission issue.

 

My own opinion: don't make a track fixes, as it depends on too many things. Give us an ability to tow broken vehicle back to the spawn area, so it could be despawned and not lost in action.

Edited by xpamobhuk

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17 hours ago, FOHDRON said:


The hard part would be recoding the kills. If someone gets tracked and repaired that shouldnt be a kill.
 

Nope...ist pretty easy...if there is something to repair, its not completely dead ;)   so no kill at all....btw thats how it is now. If only my Driver is alive, Commander dead, tracks down, etc.... then my tank is no kill for the attacker.

 

And for the repair times...well...someone stated that it takes a really Long time to repair a Bridge...all i can say to that is, it takes no time to rebuild the KI.

I agree that the repair of a tank should take a Little time, but dont Forget that this is a game. It should be realistic but it shouldnt be a waste of time. I would say that e.g. track repair should take 2-3 minutes...thats Long enough if you think about it. I disagree that the tankcrew can repair the own tank...i think noone like the idea of selfrepairing battletanks in the middle of the fight.

Lets do Opel/Beddys (or equal) or engies do this Job. Better for teamplay and not so easy to do in the middle of a fight.

i like the idea of tow a broken tank back to AB/FB too...at least you can RTB and not MIA when your not dead.

 

 

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Hello All.

Here is my understanding of Kills and RTB etc.

A “Kill” is awarded to a player that FIRST causes the target critical component damage.

 

A “Kill”:

  • The target vehicle explodes as a direct result of the critical component damage.  A vehicle may also explode on despawn as a result of a previous critical component damage that didn’t cause the vehicle to outright explode outright. The client/server decides (unsure which) whether you just disappear or explode when you despawn at the time.

 

A “Firepower Kill”:

  • Main Gunner Dead. Not sure about the Bow Machine Gunner on vehicles that have them. For the Char 1B bis the hull 75mm gunner is the driver.
  • Main Gun Destroyed. (De-gunned)

 

A “Mobility Kill”:

  • Driver Dead.
  • Engine Dead.
  • Both Tracks Destroyed. (Double Tracked)


In Game the ONLY kill, that really causes a player to despawn his vehicle, is a “Main Gunner Dead  - Firepower Kill”. On the Stug III family a “Both Tracks Destroyed - Mobility Kill” is also likely to cause the controlling player to despawn than on any other vehicle in game, except for possibly the “Wacky Laffy”, which I have very little experience with. If a vehicle has a “Main Gun Destroyed - Firepower Kill”, the current in game situation warrants it and the players vehicle has another operational weapon (commonly a co-axial mg or even a bow mg) the player may elect not to despawn and use the remaining available weapons.


When you despawn, your fate is recorded. KIA, MIA, Rescued and RTB in the AAR.

  • KIA: unit is destroyed, i.e. has suffered critical component damage, see above.
  • MIA: the unit didn’t qualify for either of the following (Rescued / RTB) regardless of the unit’s current damage state.
  • For KIA and MIA, the unit returns to the spawn list in accordance to the usual unit replacement process based on the current factory state.
  • Rescued (RES): the unit despawned within a distance of a friendly spawn point but further out than the RTB distance. The despawned unit will return to the Spawn list sooner than a KIA/MIA unit that despawned at the same time. However if the unit has critical component damage recorded against it at that time, your stats have you recorded as KIA/MIA I believe.
  • RTB: the unit despawned within the RTB distance from a friendly spawn point in an undamaged condition. I.e. no critical component damage has been recorded against the unit at the time it despawns. The RTB distance for a vehicle is approximately 500m from a friendly AB or FB. Infantry may be shorter.

If you RTB a unit, that unit is usually reserved for you and available for you to respawn instantly if you desire. It is completely functional and resupplied as long as it has not had critical component damage recorded against it.


Relating to Repair Vehicles.

I would have to agree with jwilly on this. Repairs under combat conditions DID NOT HAPPEN. Citing one person, even if that person was a “she”, I would suggest doesn’t really qualify as proof of concept. I would also note here, she was plainly unsuccessful and did not survive the engagement. I would suggest that in BGE there is no time that should not be considered combat conditions as the game is all about combat, regardless if some is shooting at you or not.

I have no doubt that Field Repairs happened. None doubt what so ever. Field Repairs under combat conditions, well with only one cited example showing the folly of such an act I would be reasonably confident in saying Field Repairs did not happen under combat conditions. This is a combat game so combat conditions are always in play, even if no one is shooting at you at the time.

 

Cheers

James10.

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5 minutes ago, james10 said:
  • This is a combat game so combat conditions are always in play, even if no one is shooting at you at the time.

Yes, thats true but dont Forget too that tankcrews cant leave a damaged tank to RTB like Inf can do. A single damaged track and the tank is lost completely...including Crew...and the Points ....and thats pretty wrong imo.

CRS told us 10 years ago already they try to work on the possibility for tankcrews to leave tanks...but nothing happened until today. So here is the alternative to rescue at least some tanks/Crews.

 

 

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Just now, brandl said:

Yes, thats true but dont Forget too that tankcrews cant leave a damaged tank to RTB like Inf can do. A single damaged track and the tank is lost completely...including Crew...and the Points ....and thats pretty wrong imo.

CRS told us 10 years ago already they try to work on the possibility for tankcrews to leave tanks...but nothing happened until today. So here is the alternative to rescue at least some tanks/Crews.

 

 

Hello How are you doing.

 

The point you seem to be missing is that the "Tank" is the unit. The "Crew" is part of the "Tank" unit. Yes Infantry can RTB unlike the tank crew because the Infantry are the unit.

In the Real War any "Crew" was more valuable than any other component of a tank, gun, ship, aircraft pick one really. Experience is a valuable commodity. In BGE experience is with the player that spawns a unit and not the separate components of that unit and is recorded as Rank Points.

 

Cheers

James10

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On ‎03‎.‎10‎.‎2016 at 6:52 PM, james10 said:

Hello How are you doing.

 

The point you seem to be missing is that the "Tank" is the unit. The "Crew" is part of the "Tank" unit. Yes Infantry can RTB unlike the tank crew because the Infantry are the unit.

In the Real War any "Crew" was more valuable than any other component of a tank, gun, ship, aircraft pick one really. Experience is a valuable commodity. In BGE experience is with the player that spawns a unit and not the separate components of that unit and is recorded as Rank Points.

 

Cheers

James10

Hmm...well...good Point of view. But we have to devide realism from ingame then.

Is it ok, when a tank with only a broken track (all crewmembers are still unharmed) have to make a MIA when they cant move anymore? The tank is lost then...thats not realistic. There should be a way to make the tank RTB if hes not dead. If a crewmember is dead the "shooter/killer" get the kill (imo ok) but the tank isnt lost completely when 3 members still alive and can make RTB.

And i really disagree with your last sentence. What about multicrew Tanks?

Salute James10 ;)

 

 

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On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 2:54 AM, brandl said:

Hmm...well...good Point of view. But we have to devide realism from ingame then.

Is it ok, when a tank with only a broken track (all crewmembers are still unharmed) have to make a MIA when they cant move anymore? The tank is lost then...thats not realistic. There should be a way to make the tank RTB if hes not dead. If a crewmember is dead the "shooter/killer" get the kill (imo ok) but the tank isnt lost completely when 3 members still alive and can make RTB.

And i really disagree with your last sentence. What about multicrew Tanks?

Salute James10 ;)

 

 

 

Hello branbl, how are you doing today?

From what I do see there is already quite a “divide from realism from in game”. The real question is; what is the point of having a unit “killed”, only to RTB? Citing that something is “not realistic” while espousing “dividing realism from in game” is at best just a little contradictory don’t you think? In game the components of a unit are of no importance. The unit is either combat functional or not. If the unit is combat functional than it can RTB, if it cannot RTB than its combat functionality has been impaired to a greater or lesser extent.

When players join a multi crew vehicle, the players in that situation will suffer the fate of the unit they have both joined together to operate. I have had very little experience with multi crewed vehicles so I am unaware of the exact mechanics dealing with that situation.

From a purely “Game” perspective the only kill that should be counted as it is the only one that has any in game value is a “Main Gunner Dead - Firepower Kill”. Pretty well all of the rest of the available “kills” are more of a controlling player inconvenience. From a “Realism” perspective any of the listed kills would result in the vehicle if possible, retreating from the combat area or being abandoned if immobile. The net result is that vehicle is out of action for the remainder of the battle. It may or may not be recovered and repaired, depending on who controls the battle field after the battle has concluded in that area.

Something to consider; a RTB in game already performs the functions of an extended Refuel, Rearm, Repair and Replacement of some crewmembers as well. Commanders, Loaders and Bow MG Gunners fall into this category. This is also unrealistic as well, but this is only a game and we are attempting to “divide from realism from in game”.

Cheers

James10

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Well, being that it's a game it should be obvious it'll be somewhat unrealistic.  If 20 people attack a town with a supply of 200 riflemen, it makes no sense that only 7 will come out at a time while the rest apparently sit in a depot waiting for one of those 7 to die.

As far as vehicles, I just think that it's a shame that vehicles can be list so easily sometimes.  Maybe at the very least gain them back quickly if you're near a friendly town, OR a town that becomes friendly after the AO is resolved.  You can just imagine that the vehicle was repaired sometime after the battle.

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On 10/8/2016 at 2:26 PM, rinzello said:

You can just imagine that the vehicle was repaired sometime after the battle.

OK, follow the timeline you propose:

1. A battle is ongoing. The fight is for a town. A tank is hit and "killed".

2. Battle continues. Dead tank is still dead.

3. Battle eventually ends. Define the end as no kills in that vicinity for say ten minutes.

4. The side that holds the town "won" the battle. That side gets back some percentage of the tanks they lost in the battle, because they hold the battlefield and can recover the wrecks and abandoned disables for salvage and sometime repair.

5. The side that "lost" the battle gets back nothing. Their wrecks and abandoned disables are in the enemy's hands, and are towed away to be scrapped, repaired for use on secondary fronts, etc.

Sure, some percentage of dead tanks are repairable, as long as they didn't burn...but for use in the next battle, not the same battle.

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I would define the end of the battle as the AO being dropped.  I wouldn't even say ALL tanks are recovered, but ones with lesser damages like being detracked and maybe missing a crew member should be somewhat simple.

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