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nozlen

A video that will help you fly a 109 without flopping.

76 posts in this topic

I walk you through some settings that may help you fly the 109 without falling out of the sky non stop.

 

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Nice vid

i never tried to set those settings,thought im gonna make more kaputt then it would help me

question: if i set it could i do then the twister with the spits?i mean the twister they do when i try to get on their 6?

I think im gonna try this if i get the time to.

thx man

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2 hours ago, bersi said:

Nice vid

i never tried to set those settings,thought im gonna make more kaputt then it would help me

question: if i set it could i do then the twister with the spits?i mean the twister they do when i try to get on their 6?

I think im gonna try this if i get the time to.

thx man

First off props to you for being a Piggy pilot, I flew only 110's for my first couple years and was always told "You will never be a Bersi" lol, so salute to you on that.

Now to the question, ABSO freaking LUTELY....I would suggest dropping flaps, and cutting into their turn and taking a lead approach rather then a chase approach, well that is atleast what I do. 

A few things I failed to mention in the video....ooh heck let me just make another vid real quick rather then type it all out... :)

Give me one sec and I will make another video....I might add I never edit, so my vids will come across as silly at times lol.

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3 hours ago, bersi said:

Nice vid

i never tried to set those settings,thought im gonna make more kaputt then it would help me

question: if i set it could i do then the twister with the spits?i mean the twister they do when i try to get on their 6?

I think im gonna try this if i get the time to.

thx man

Lol Bersi asking for tips on how to fly a 109 is like Trump seeking advice for a holes...........I enjoyed the vid till my head started hurting at the cfml files. Thinking about trying the yaw piece to a D520 and see how that goes (offline of course)

and to my friend Bersi......move along, nothing for you to see here

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Bersi here is some more tips with the CFML file and more footage of me flying with the trim setting.

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2 hours ago, sideout said:

Lol Bersi asking for tips on how to fly a 109 is like Trump seeking advice for a holes...........I enjoyed the vid till my head started hurting at the cfml files. Thinking about trying the yaw piece to a D520 and see how that goes (offline of course)

and to my friend Bersi......move along, nothing for you to see here

Thnx Sideout. The rudder fix does help the Dewo and HUGELY helps the flop machine the Bell as well.

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12 hours ago, delems said:

The fact that a video like this even needs to be made says volumes.....

No doubt.

 

The 109 is a piece of crap without using elevator to turn.

Being able to fly it without flopping horribly depends on using a trim function as a main flight control.

I have ailerons mapped to go alongside my x axis and it gives you a nice flat roll.

I will be mapping my elevator somewhere on my x52Pro soon.

 

CRS, I hope you are paying attention to this thread and have concluded that the 109 needs real and lasting change.

 

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21 hours ago, delems said:

The fact that a video like this even needs to be made says volumes.....

 

9 hours ago, vasduten1 said:

No doubt.

 

The 109 is a piece of crap without using elevator to turn.

Being able to fly it without flopping horribly depends on using a trim function as a main flight control.

I have ailerons mapped to go alongside my x axis and it gives you a nice flat roll.

I will be mapping my elevator somewhere on my x52Pro soon.

 

CRS, I hope you are paying attention to this thread and have concluded that the 109 needs real and lasting change.

 

HOPEFULLY CRS wakes up before the release it on Steam and fixes the 109. I made a video of how bad the plane is compared to flying others.

 

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lol, Yeah, never knew about this one Nozlen. Though I have heard some tales about it being out there.  Does it take away from the max envelope potential though I wonder. Like you might flop less but the amount of roll/yaw/pitch is decreased in some circumstances.   I get by without this thus far, ( though Im sure the hard core allied pilots swear 100% of LW does this anyway and were all hacks or something.)

That being said, i wonder how many Lw 109 ninjas truly rely on this. And thats the key to consistent Acedom in the 09. 

To be rid of the flop would be glorious, Just yesterday I thought Id be a hotshot and try to turn with Makosharks Hurri 1, sad ending, flop City. Chances go way down against a quality raf pilot with out flopping if you are gonna abandon the vertical perks of the 09.

Apparently, like a fool, I have practiced learning CRS's messed up 109 flight model the way it is and now feel silly for missing this boat.  But is it cool to mess with that stuff and not lose some integrity?

As someone else mentioned, the fact that there even needs to be a video or a "fix" to the problem says alot about the missed mark that is the ww2ol 109 flight model.

I put incremental flaps into my cfml years ago and never touched it since. Thats all.

How many exceedingly successful Luftwaffe pilots have come to rely on this to stay alive?   Are those that don't do this at a big disadvantage to those who do?

Anyway, well explained Nozlen.

Edited by Mingus

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5 hours ago, Mingus said:

lol, Yeah, never knew about this one Nozlen. Though I have heard some tales about it being out there.  Does it take away from the max envelope potential though I wonder. Like you might flop less but the amount of roll/yaw/pitch is decreased in some circumstances.   I get by without this thus far, ( though Im sure the hard core allied pilots swear 100% of LW does this anyway and were all hacks or something.)

That being said, i wonder how many Lw 109 ninjas truly rely on this. And thats the key to consistent Acedom in the 09. 

To be rid of the flop would be glorious, Just yesterday I thought Id be a hotshot and try to turn with Makosharks Hurri 1, sad ending, flop City. Chances go way down against a quality raf pilot with out flopping if you are gonna abandon the vertical perks of the 09.

Apparently, like a fool, I have practiced learning CRS's messed up 109 flight model the way it is and now feel silly for missing this boat.  But is it cool to mess with that stuff and not lose some integrity?

As someone else mentioned, the fact that there even needs to be a video or a "fix" to the problem says alot about the missed mark that is the ww2ol 109 flight model.

I put incremental flaps into my cfml years ago and never touched it since. Thats all.

How many exceedingly successful Luftwaffe pilots have come to rely on this to stay alive?   Are those that don't do this at a big disadvantage to those who do?

Anyway, well explained Nozlen.

Great post, answered your questions in this video.

 

 

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My favorite part: "Get a damn joystick!" 

Amen.

Good stuff here, thanks for putting the effort into it. S!

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8 hours ago, XOOM said:

My favorite part: "Get a damn joystick!" 

Amen.

Good stuff here, thanks for putting the effort into it. S!

Lol, yeah some of the silly crap that I say is just idiotic but funny, my daughter tells me ALL the time how stupid I sound, but I do it just to embarrass her..LOL That's what us dads do!!!!

On a different note anyone who has ever followed what I have said since my time here should know, I without a doubt have been completely Anti-Xoom, and stated the game was doomed with you at the helm, but I am man enough to say I was 10000% wrong and will gladly eat some crow when it comes to that. I am still not at the trust point to resub or financially support the game yet, but you have made advances and getting some older people back in the fold as a way to add new weapons, was a good move, and props to you on that move.

I will warn you though going to Steam with the 109 as is, will not go over well and you only get one shot on steam for first impressions and if it flops their is no mercy or recovery from a bad kickoff on Steam...ala No Mans Sky

S!

 

 

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I only modified my cmfl file to add incremental flaps and then mapped aileron to the X axis -that's it.

I tired mapping the elevator to various different sliders, etc on my stick set up and couldn't return to "zero" reliably enough to keep it. Also, I LIKE the twisty rudder, it helps me take off and snap shots off sometimes.

 

Honestly, if the 109 flies like this when the Steam release happens, this game will NOT keep any flight sim people that try it.

 

It's just so bad. Not even comical.

 

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7 minutes ago, vasduten1 said:

I tired mapping the elevator to various different sliders, etc on my stick set up and couldn't return to "zero" reliably enough to keep it. 

That's odd, I have never had a issue with mapping it. Only thing I can tell you that might be the cause is if you edited deadzone on the front and end of your joystick axes, it can limit your joystick to some degree but it should never prevent it from going to "0" though.

Sad, because it is a huge help for me and without it I doubt I even played the game because I would feel I would just be giving the enemy a even more advantage then I already do, sad but true.

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20 hours ago, Mingus said:

lol, Yeah, never knew about this one Nozlen. Though I have heard some tales about it being out there.  Does it take away from the max envelope potential though I wonder. Like you might flop less but the amount of roll/yaw/pitch is decreased in some circumstances.   I get by without this thus far, ( though Im sure the hard core allied pilots swear 100% of LW does this anyway and were all hacks or something.)

That being said, i wonder how many Lw 109 ninjas truly rely on this. And thats the key to consistent Acedom in the 09. 

To be rid of the flop would be glorious, Just yesterday I thought Id be a hotshot and try to turn with Makosharks Hurri 1, sad ending, flop City. Chances go way down against a quality raf pilot with out flopping if you are gonna abandon the vertical perks of the 09.

Apparently, like a fool, I have practiced learning CRS's messed up 109 flight model the way it is and now feel silly for missing this boat.  But is it cool to mess with that stuff and not lose some integrity?

As someone else mentioned, the fact that there even needs to be a video or a "fix" to the problem says alot about the missed mark that is the ww2ol 109 flight model.

I put incremental flaps into my cfml years ago and never touched it since. Thats all.

How many exceedingly successful Luftwaffe pilots have come to rely on this to stay alive?   Are those that don't do this at a big disadvantage to those who do?

Anyway, well explained Nozlen.

its probably helpfull for noobs not to flop a 09.maybe should be a sticky in da hangar.

for me its too much work/programming/testing i dont want to spend.

 

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wasn't there something about a third invisible wing being removed? read a post about it somewhere,,,

I've given up on the 09, it's a fricken chicken-fish flapping it's wings and whipping its tail all over the place.

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What tells you that the 109 flight models is dorked is the fact that he tells you in the video to turn off yaw.  I solved the problem by getting a joystick that does not twist at all.  The fact that everyone creates a work around should say something.  I can't imagine that German flight manuals said  "Warning!!! Any use of the rudder means certain death".  I mean... why even have the rudder on the plane then?  Shouldn't common sense tell us that the thing is mis-modeled if the rudder can't be used.  By the way... this applies to the Bell too. 

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The 09 isn't borked per se, I believe its behavior is a result of having the torque reduced. Now don't hold me to this, I'm no aerodynamicist, and perhaps someone else knows better, but this is as best I can figure what is going on.

Do you remember long ago when the allied aircraft used to snap in an accelerated stall? Do you remember when takeoff was more difficult and newbs complained all the time that they couldn't get off the ground?

Those 'problems' were functions of torque. They went away because in the big air audit, round about version 1.19 or so, torque was reduced. I believe the reason for that change was in fact hoping to keep more newbs in a game that desperately needed them. The change however also affected what is called static directional stability, making it worse. Static directional stability is the tendancy of aircraft to return to their heading after a force skews the craft. While more torque adds more yaw moment in a given direction to the plane, it also increases the tendency of the plane to quickly right its flightpath.

Think of a gyroscope, when it spins fast it stands up straight, when it slows it wobbles.  It is harder to deflect when its moving fast as well, it rights itself better after being hit. 

Thats the problem with the 09, which lost its stability in that audit; It wobbles for want of torque. If you increase the torque the wobble, the fishtailing, will be reduced. 

I believe the reason the 09 and p-39 suffered more noticeably than the other planes is because they are by nature less stable than the others, the airacobra having its engine aft, and the 09 not only having the fuel tank behind the pilot, but being relatively short as well, the tail lacking leverage. Also I believe the 09 has the highest power to weight ratio, meaning torque effects come into play all the more.

Anyway, just ask hatch, who iirc did the audit, to give you axis vets a /realmode command, which would load real torque values into your ride, and voila you'll have your stability back, though you might struggle to get airborn. ;)

As I said, don't hold me to it, but thats as best I can figure what happened. I'd love to have a realmode option, the p-39 and 190 supposedly had some wicked stall behavior, and It'd be cool to see their fully torqued departure characteristics and to have to deal with them.

Edited by biggles4

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Great posts......waaaaay above my pay grade wrt how these things work. I tried Noz idea and it helped me on 109s, 110s, he111s, dewos, and cobras in the training mode. Sadly, nothing will help me actually be good in any of those, but I try. Noz I played resolutely from 02 to 2012, just came back about six months ago. The rats are trying, they actually listen now, and for that they have my full support. 

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8 hours ago, biggles4 said:

The 09 isn't borked per se, I believe its behavior is a result of having the torque reduced. Now don't hold me to this, I'm no aerodynamicist, and perhaps someone else knows better, but this is as best I can figure what is going on.

Do you remember long ago when the allied aircraft used to snap in an accelerated stall? Do you remember when takeoff was more difficult and newbs complained all the time that they couldn't get off the ground?

Those 'problems' were functions of torque. They went away because in the big air audit, round about version 1.19 or so, torque was reduced. I believe the reason for that change was in fact hoping to keep more newbs in a game that desperately needed them. The change however also affected what is called static directional stability, making it worse. Static directional stability is the tendancy of aircraft to return to their heading after a force skews the craft. While more torque adds more yaw moment in a given direction to the plane, it also increases the tendency of the plane to quickly right its flightpath.

Think of a gyroscope, when it spins fast it stands up straight, when it slows it wobbles.  It is harder to deflect when its moving fast as well, it rights itself better after being hit. 

Thats the problem with the 09, which lost its stability in that audit; It wobbles for want of torque. If you increase the torque the wobble, the fishtailing, will be reduced. 

I believe the reason the 09 and p-39 suffered more noticeably than the other planes is because they are by nature less stable than the others, the airacobra having its engine aft, and the 09 not only having the fuel tank behind the pilot, but being relatively short as well, the tail lacking leverage. Also I believe the 09 has the highest power to weight ratio, meaning torque effects come into play all the more.

Anyway, just ask hatch, who iirc did the audit, to give you axis vets a /realmode command, which would load real torque values into your ride, and voila you'll have your stability back, though you might struggle to get airborn. ;)

As I said, don't hold me to it, but thats as best I can figure what happened. I'd love to have a realmode option, the p-39 and 190 supposedly had some wicked stall behavior, and It'd be cool to see their fully torqued departure characteristics and to have to deal with them.

Bingo!

 

I believe that the lowered torque is what causes this flop, but is there NO way to find a middle ground?

@HATCH

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4 hours ago, sideout said:

Great posts......waaaaay above my pay grade wrt how these things work. I tried Noz idea and it helped me on 109s, 110s, he111s, dewos, and cobras in the training mode. Sadly, nothing will help me actually be good in any of those, but I try. Noz I played resolutely from 02 to 2012, just came back about six months ago. The rats are trying, they actually listen now, and for that they have my full support. 

I agree ALOT of good posts in here.

If you ever see me in game feel free to ask me to help you out with some piloting skills. I have trained NUMEROUS people how to get better and some now stay in the top 20ish range in fighter pilots. I think one of the biggest things for most people is keeping a eye on the enemy plane and it can be easy fixed with some practice and setting up the correct views on your joystick.

Once I see some fixes in the air game that are SERIOUSLY borked I will gladly resub, but I do agree they are headed in the right direction.

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11 hours ago, biggles4 said:

The 09 isn't borked per se, I believe its behavior is a result of having the torque reduced. Now don't hold me to this, I'm no aerodynamicist, and perhaps someone else knows better, but this is as best I can figure what is going on.

Do you remember long ago when the allied aircraft used to snap in an accelerated stall? Do you remember when takeoff was more difficult and newbs complained all the time that they couldn't get off the ground?

Those 'problems' were functions of torque. They went away because in the big air audit, round about version 1.19 or so, torque was reduced. I believe the reason for that change was in fact hoping to keep more newbs in a game that desperately needed them. The change however also affected what is called static directional stability, making it worse. Static directional stability is the tendancy of aircraft to return to their heading after a force skews the craft. While more torque adds more yaw moment in a given direction to the plane, it also increases the tendency of the plane to quickly right its flightpath.

Think of a gyroscope, when it spins fast it stands up straight, when it slows it wobbles.  It is harder to deflect when its moving fast as well, it rights itself better after being hit. 

Thats the problem with the 09, which lost its stability in that audit; It wobbles for want of torque. If you increase the torque the wobble, the fishtailing, will be reduced. 

I believe the reason the 09 and p-39 suffered more noticeably than the other planes is because they are by nature less stable than the others, the airacobra having its engine aft, and the 09 not only having the fuel tank behind the pilot, but being relatively short as well, the tail lacking leverage. Also I believe the 09 has the highest power to weight ratio, meaning torque effects come into play all the more.

Anyway, just ask hatch, who iirc did the audit, to give you axis vets a /realmode command, which would load real torque values into your ride, and voila you'll have your stability back, though you might struggle to get airborn. ;)

As I said, don't hold me to it, but thats as best I can figure what happened. I'd love to have a realmode option, the p-39 and 190 supposedly had some wicked stall behavior, and It'd be cool to see their fully torqued departure characteristics and to have to deal with them.

GREAT POST!!!

 

I was not playing the game when all that happened but if you go and mess with torgue in a flight model, you are ABSOLUTELY asking for trouble in alot of aspects of the sim.

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I honestly believe the AoA readings are off, and that is what is causing alot of the issues. Go nose up and your AoA is at 1 degrees...."?????????"...seriously wth.

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