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nozlen

A video that will help you fly a 109 without flopping.

76 posts in this topic

11 hours ago, nozlen said:

I might add Hatch, I would not mention something as "Easy Mode" in this game, because you have (how do I say) certain people, that like nothing more then belittling their fellow pilot gamer's, and it would make new players leave quickly if they had to hear Capt. Awesome blab on about how noobs suck and he is the bestest of the best.

Dude, Not sure what you expect from me here...

I am the LAST person to stand up for political correctness. The bottom line is that flying is a skill and dogfighting is hard. It isn't for everyone. Doing it online cant help but to invite public scrutiny from within that community. The person that takes the time to get good at ANY skill deserves his chops. Not that he should be an asshole about it to beginners as he was once one too, but how offensive he gets goes to the TOS guidelines, Forum Moderation, and the GM areas.

It doesn't really matter what words I choose to use as a descriptor for an "easy mode". No matter what I call it, it's still an artificial substitution for an otherwise acquirable skill and will never hold respect from those that have put forth the effort to acquire it. As far as the ribbing, that just goes with online gaming and the camaraderie and competitiveness it promotes. It's why we login rather than boot up a stand alone game. As part of that, newbies should understand that every person ribbing them was at one time a green behind the ear unskilled pilot just like them, but has taken the time and effort to grow beyond that. They should too... Then they will have earned the same respect. In real life there are no trophies for just showing up.

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5 minutes ago, nozlen said:

Just going to say alrighty then...no idea what that was all about.

Not calling easy mode easy mode because it could be used by someone to pick on them? I don't know either then... I must have missed the joke :P   In any case, there are my thoughts on record about flying easy mode with the big dogs. lol!

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So adjusting your sensitivity is easy mode??? Would that actually make it harder, because like you said you never get the full range, but hey live the dream my friend live the dream.

Edited by nozlen

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2 hours ago, HATCH said:

Not calling easy mode easy mode because it could be used by someone to pick on them? I don't know either then... I must have missed the joke :P   In any case, there are my thoughts on record about flying easy mode with the big dogs. lol!

I'm pretty sure it's a reference to the general complaint of "EZMode(tm)" in dealing with Allied aircraft.

 

We've been using that term for years hahahaha.

 

When you see a DB-7 and a Havoc over a town pulling flight circus maneuvers without fear of wing stress at ALL, and taking cannon rounds from both the air and AAA guys set up, you start to assume that Allies have EZMode(tm) planes.

 

:)

That's all it was.

 

You make great points about people having to earn the respect and skill, as well as vets not chiding less skilled players for being n00blets.

 

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16 minutes ago, vasduten1 said:

I'm pretty sure it's a reference to the general complaint of "EZMode(tm)" in dealing with Allied aircraft.

*Ding *Ding WINNEERRRR!!!! :D

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Well, @HATCH has been away for a while.

 

I might have assumed the same thing.

 

 

 

LOL @ EZMode(tm)

 

Those pilots think they're SO good, too... which makes it even funnier.

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3 hours ago, nozlen said:

So adjusting your sensitivity is easy mode??? Would that actually make it harder, because like you said you never get the full range, but hey live the dream my friend live the dream.

Ahhhh... LOL! I was thinking more along the lines about an actual "Easy Mode" implementation like I mentioned in my first post in this thread. We obviously don't have one here, but we put one in WarBirds that limited your AOA so that you could never stall. You could definitely tell when you got into a turn fight with one of them. A lot like clubbing baby seals I'd imagine. We constantly used to give them all a good natured chiding about flying with training wheels! :lol:

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15 hours ago, vasduten1 said:

 

What they didn't do was make the plane audible as they got behind Allied pilots as they flew along at 200mph.

 

:P

 

Is this the same as the bionic ears thing?

 

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Please make a copy before you fix something.

 

Edit:i hate the new forums

Edited by bersi
Fking forums

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51 minutes ago, bersi said:

Please make a copy before you fix something.

 

Edit:i hate the new forums

LOL Agreed. I would doubt very seriously he wouldn't already do this though, in fact I bet he/CRS has NUMEROUS copies.

I still wish they would add back the 110C4/B and 109F1, they had these in the game before I played, so I never got to fly them.

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On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 0:44 AM, HATCH said:

Weeeeelll! Xoom evidently blew my first big surprise... Dag Nabit!! Anyway...

I have been following along and taking notes for when the time would come. A plane audit is HIGH on my "Want To Do List" but currently been a little busy with marketing and promotional things. Couple of things about all the birds in this game and with the 109 as compared to the other fighters in the context of this "control" thread. First off, all of the planes are built in specialized components for each, all the way down to airfoil design type and area, percentage of chord for control surfaces, and degrees of "throw" as per the design blueprints or testing reports from each plane. In other words, I don't tell the model control surface how much force to apply (in particular yaw or elevator control for the 109 rudder in this context) we build the airfoil to spec and add it to the model. Quick visual check on the current control surfaces and watching them make the plane react in the WWIIOL virtual world doesn't indicate anything obviously out of the ordinary as far as the control surfaces in operation go. But there is quite a bit more to it than that.

The initial premise of this thread is basically instructions how to "de-tune" the joystick so that when you pull full deflection on the control stick, or rudder pedals, the planes elevator or rudder will not move to its max capable deflection. Another initial part of this thread is teaching pilots to use elevator trim rather than the elevator for changing AOA. Because the 109 has a variable incidence "flying tail" and this is a game with programmable "fly by wire" controls rather than trying to dogfight with the trim wheel as you would be if trying that in real life, the the trim "workaround" does help to pull AOA more slowly and in a far more limited fashion than the elevator can, and "detuning" the stick still lets you move the elevator up or down more quickly than the trim, but in the end, it is still just eliminating the full elevator potential. Bottom line is that both are artificial limitations to keep from accidental over control and the "detuning" specifically writes off some of the fidelity with control capabilities, primarily very close to, or at post departure flight regimes in the model. Better for newbies, limiting for experts... Still this "need" obviously has it's place here or we wouldn't be talking about it. Maybe one day we can figure out some sort of easy mode that does that limiting for you instead of having to do the trim and control thing. Better yet, I have always wanted to figure out what happened to that particular model that makes it behave so badly that people are afraid to push it to its absolute limits in fear of cartwheeling out of the sky... 

Part of the 109's "control problem" in relation to all of the other fighters that I do not want to change because it IS part of the historical design that makes the 109 the 109, specifically in relation to the spit in this instance, is that it has a higher wing loading than the spit, has operational leading edge slats to help compensate for that higher wing loading and to maintain aileron control at higher AOA than the spit and most all of the other planes, and at the same time, has around twice the rudder and somewhere around 30% more elevator throw control than the spit does... That has two primary consequences that has to do with being able to pull more AOA and yaw than the spit can simply because of the extra control authority in the elevator and rudder. In RL, most pilots would appreciate that because higher AOA can be the difference in a tighter instantaneous turn at the right speed, or even be the difference in the lead needed for a gun solution at the right time. Those attributes are good things, but they come at a cost. Because of the higher wing loading and ability to pull more controllable AOA, it is MUCH easier to push past the "edge" into accelerated stall territory where you pass the lift "sweet spot" and start piling on the drag and burning up your energy, getting worse the slower you go and the more AOA you pull slowing you down even faster and getting ever more detrimental right up to the point of stall and departure from controlled flight. Then to compound that, BANG! one of the slats opens or closes on you in an asymmetrical fashion and now you ALSO have an unexpected yawing moment thrown into the mix, right at the worst possible time when the airflow over your control surfaces might not be adequate to maintain control of the aircraft. All of that is historically accurate in the 109 design and I intend to make sure to keep it that way.

That said, there is a LOT more to the flight model that can, and I am sure quite frankly IS making the plane go from a "workable" yawing moment into that crazy vertical flop, and that is where I am going first. The long and short of it is that every single component that makes up the model, and I mean everything, from the engines/superchargers and propeller disk, fuselage, all the wing and airfoil components, the, guns and cannon, right down to the pilot, his armor plate, and the radiators, besides each applying mass or weight at their proper x, y, z, coordinates within each plane model, they also have x, y, and z, axis rotational inertia's based on their size shape and mass that have to be computed and entered into the model by hand and that all come together to determine the rotational inertia totals for the model. I have already run across a few anomalies here, and this is pretty much where I think we'll find the rest of our gremlins. I had always wanted to check into that since I first started building and auditing the planes after Mo. And I was solely responsible for the 109 and the way it flew from that time up until my departure in Dec 2005. Unfortunately I got "cut" before I could get around to fixing it, and as a result, that SoB has bothered me for the last 15 years... (You ended up getting the P38, FW190, and the C47, an Opel audit, a couple of new tanks, and a tank mass, inertia, and suspension audit instead if I remember correctly)

Anyway, Xoom gave me the tools I needed to do that awhile back for another project (sorry, "top secret"), but in the need to bolster marketing to take advantage of the new capabilities you are seeing this new team produce, and Badger temporarily having RL override his WWIIOL time, I have been putting all my WWIIOL time into filling in for Badger and helping the new marketing team (friggin subscribe already people and let me get back to building vehicles and planes full time!!!! ;-)). But between that damn bird being a major friggin "itch" I have not been able to scratch for 15 years, and after running across these same old "floppy 109" threads while researching the last two community reports, I couldn't help myself. I was reading this thread and actually started replying to it regarding the 109 characteristics that are different than the other planes in the first part of this post and bam! I had to go look. Guilty as of last night and this morning cross referencing 135.3 109 FM files with the ones I still have on my "homework" hard drives from 2001-2005. I was sorta thinking about fixing it and then turning it in as a "oh, by the way" surprise, but like Xoom mentioned about the marketing meeting on soundcloud, I had the "presenter" screen and sorta got caught with "my hand in the cookie jar" still having a couple of flight model files open on my desktop. So I went ahead and showed/told him a few issues I had already found between last night and this mornings meeting. Fortunately he wasn't too perturbed at me for playin' 109 hooky before my marketing meeting... ;-)

So to make a long story short, I am indeed going to get her sorted out and get that "flop" wonkyness fixed. Once I get it sorted out in the E3, because they are all so closely related, it's trivial to apply the same changes to all of the current 109 models. But be warned, I do not intend to be changing ANY historical aspects like control surface throws, wing areas, overall weights or wing loading, climb rates, top speeds, or anything else of that nature. For instance, the spit mk1 will always have a little bit tighter "yank and bank" sustained turn radius than the 109e, but the majority of the "flop" will surely be eliminated, (remember, some of the initiators of unexpected yaw that I spoke of earlier like asymmetrical deployment of the slats, and the ability to pull high angles of AOA will definitely remain).  But I have already checked some and will be double checking all the other airfoils, frontal areas, and deployed slat drag, and indications are there that it might hold on to its energy a little better if not too pushed too far for too long beyond that AOA "sweet spot".

Merry Christmas!!! HO! HO! HO!   
 

Great post HATCH.  I don't think anyone is looking for anything that would be a departure from the historical reality of the 109.  I wouldn't want that and neither would most of the people who play the game.  However, the fact that the game as become Allied pilots vs a few 109 "Experts"  (Vader... looking at you) speaks volumes.  It's actually frustrating for both sides.  The Allies start threads begging for the Axis to come down and dog fight and the Axis seem to put up only those few 109 gurus who have mastered some crazy deflection shots (ahem.. Vader).  When I play Axis I generally don't bother with anything other than the E-1 because I am certainly an LTAP in the 109 and when I play Allied I cut the grass with my propeller and just avoid Zulu and look for ground targets. I'm glad this is getting looked at.

If you did just slip up and mention some secret development on the E-3 that is some true awesomeness.  If I am not mistaken the E-3 is the E-1 with some cannons strapped on the wings.  Given that the E-1 is the best turning ride of the Axis I would predict that a bunch of LTAPs like myself would fly the thing for the entire campaign. 

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12 hours ago, monsjoex said:

Is this the same as the bionic ears thing?

 

Yep, probably another sound issue that needs to be looked at.

I've heard Opel trucks running along as I flew in low in a Hurricane, and have also heard Laffies over the sound of the 109 sometimes.

 

Nobody should EVER be able to hear a 109 behind them while their engine is cranking along at even 40% and at speeds more than 100mph.

I hate the idea that as I'm lining up a shot on an Allied plane, they can hear me approaching behind them. Something is broken there and needs a fix.

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33 minutes ago, saronin said:

If I am not mistaken the E-3 is the E-1 with some cannons strapped on the wings.

not strapped on the wings, MG-FF cannon in the wings instead of the mg15(mg17?) machine guns. E3 would make more sense as the 'noob' ride vs the E1 IMO. Since the E3 has no mine rounds it has roughly half the firepower of the E4 but significantly more than the E1 which is basically worthless.

 

i'm still in favor of having the spit1b in tier0 too. brit pilots whine way too much in tier0.

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I'm glad most seem to be appreciative of what I'm trying to do. Apologies for the confusion... I AM talking about the E4. For whatever reason when Mo first built it he named its directory e3. but it definitely is the E4 with the additional pilot armor as you can see when you look behind you and a little extra weight. Maybe I can fix that while I'm in here...

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Thanks Hatch. I think most pilots don't want any type of dumbing down of the 109 realism....just a close look at that strange twisty flop reality.

If that was the 109's reality ....ok....but I can't really think it was that bad.

Good luck with the marketing hat. 

S!

 

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Something wrong here,we are talking about fixing the 09 and i dont see any allie coming in to cry.

where are they?bus0 on vacation?

 

 

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1 hour ago, bersi said:

Something wrong here,we are talking about fixing the 09 and i dont see any allie coming in to cry.

where are they?bus0 on vacation?

 

 

I will cry. Here is Spit1 vs 109E4 stats:

Bf 109E-4    101    135    0.75    Dec 12 17:55    170,570    194,119    0.88

Spit, the best allied air has to offer, is gettin whooped. Don't make the 09 too uber!

Or make it an E3, and take away the minengechoss and the armor. It'll turn much better! :)

 

 

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5 minutes ago, biggles4 said:

I will cry. Here is Spit1 vs 109E4 stats:

Bf 109E-4    101    135    0.75    Dec 12 17:55    170,570    194,119    0.88

Spit, the best allied air has to offer, is gettin whooped. Don't make the 09 too uber!

Or make it an E3, and take away the minengechoss and the armor. It'll turn much better! :)

 

 

Well it is a known fact most pilots who fly....well lets just say, who fly the other side wait till the spit2b comes out then they take to the air. Not really what this thread is about though. :)

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next tier will be the absolutely useless F2 vs the cannon spit.

then the F4 vs the invincible-bug VB.

with their current play style the 09's have too much trouble covering the stuka and 111, or even each other sometimes.

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13 minutes ago, biggles4 said:

I will cry. Here is Spit1 vs 109E4 stats:

Bf 109E-4    101    135    0.75    Dec 12 17:55    170,570    194,119    0.88

Spit, the best allied air has to offer, is gettin whooped. Don't make the 09 too uber!

Or make it an E3, and take away the minengechoss and the armor. It'll turn much better! :)

 

 

take away minengeschosse? what are u smoking? the cannons are already damn weak

dont change the e4!!

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09 seems much more stable. Hatch if you happen by, I would be curious to know what all was changed. Guess that bodes well for the Bell.

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I'll write up something a little more detailed for the report on Friday. But main things:

Researched and re-verified proper weights, dimensions, and placements for all of the components (engine, prop and hub, radiators, armor plate, etc) within the airframe and recalculated x,y,z rotational inertias of each based on those numbers using motioneering inertia calculator.

Checked all airfoil components for proper areas, aspect ratios, and drag areas (small issue here with wing drag area and fuselage aspect ratio causing the uncharacteristic speed loss with increased AOA as well as higher yawing effects from slat deployment). Made aileron, elevator, and rudder throws historical again as well as reduced control input response times back to original (pre-1.29). Verified same overall weight, speed, and climb performances as before my edits. Pretty much it. No power, thrust, wing/stabilizer areas, or overall weights were changed, so turning radius (mass vs max Cl) are still the same.

Can't speak for the bell. Remember, it has the majority of it's mass (engine) behind the CG and the pilot, where the 109 and all the other planes have it hanging well out front forward of the wings and CG. Its going to be somewhat more unstable by design as it was historically. How much so remains to be seen after the same treatment as the 109's.

As mentioned in the road map, after a quick pass with the P38, P39, and 110's, ALL FM's will get a review but on a tier by tier schedule, and as it fits within the rest of the production priorities.

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