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Flags removal already underdevelopment and no discussion or information?

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Elfin
On 12/19/2016 at 6:22 PM, capco said:

R&U.  Awesome.

I'll more than likely stick around at least until we start hearing about 1.36.X developments.  I'm becoming more cautiously optimistic about the future thanks to the relative transparency you and your team provides.  

S!

No...I think you should leave as soon as possible.

That way I will live a lot longer in game.

;)

Though you haven't killed me recently....but I might be wrong about that...I don't check stat's much.

:)

I do remember some awesome battles before flags were introduced and it was all town based. Not sure if that will return but allowing players/squads to take action on their own likely has more chance at success than what is happening now. "Kill or cure" as the old saying go... what they do will either cure it  or kill it.

Guess we shall see. There are some interesting ideas from people though about getting to "purchase" stuff for a squad etc....

Anyway...don't leave for a good long while.....once the "fixed" 109 is in I might be able to actually shoot you down when you do get in the air.

S!

 

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biggles4

I'm disappointed by the change. The situation in game seemed more an opportunity rather than a problem. Empty towns are like fallow ground waiting to be sown with FMS/FRU/MSPs. Making PPO positions permanent (via permanent missions for example) extending their range from the parent brigade potentially several towns, perhaps with spawning regulated by distance, allowing them to be switched between brigades, etc., maybe even making capture of empty towns dependent solely on destroying the enemy PPO presence taking flags out of the picture, that could have led to a much more various and more warlike battlefield. Would have covered empty and rear towns without flag movement, and allowed attackers to drive deep into enemy territory without needing to move a flag up. I reckon you could advance the mobile spawn tech with town based supply as well, but the empty ground seemed like the ideal laboratory for experimentation, and for possibly getting the game get away from cap the flag, which has always been my biggest gripe. Visions of a real wargame had started dancing in my head, but I guess we'll have to wait. :(  So basically, if in charge I might try and extend the reach of Flags incrementally via the PPO tech. That said, I don't have CRS' knowledge and perspective, and their reasons for the change are understandable and well put, so godspeed to'em. 

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Capco
2 minutes ago, elfin said:

No...I think you should leave as soon as possible.

That way I will live a lot longer in game.

;)

Though you haven't killed me recently....but I might be wrong about that...I don't check stat's much.

:)

I do remember some awesome battles before flags were introduced and it was all town based. Not sure if that will return but allowing players/squads to take action on their own likely has more chance at success than what is happening now. "Kill or cure" as the old saying go... what they do will either cure it  or kill it.

Guess we shall see. There are some interesting ideas from people though about getting to "purchase" stuff for a squad etc....

Anyway...don't leave for a good long while.....once the "fixed" 109 is in I might be able to actually shoot you down when you do get in the air.

S!

 

This post made me smile very much :D  Although you give me too much credit; I'm definitely an LTAP through and through!

S!

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Capco
7 hours ago, pbveteran said:

@capco

Don't you think the current number of brigades amplify mistakes ?

Softcaps are a byproduct of the reduced number of brigades... What is trying to be achieved with town supply could be achieved with more brigades and smaller supply per brigade.

I also disagree with one moic.. think it's too much of burden having distributed control would make it less demanding and add more teamwork among players who had control of these.

That idea still needs someone to manage it 24/7, which is the big reason why it wouldn't work.

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pbveteran
15 minutes ago, capco said:

That idea still needs someone to manage it 24/7, which is the big reason why it wouldn't work.

That's why every subscriber would be eligble to own and move one of those brigades. 

It already works on Heroes & Generals no reason why it wouldn't here. 

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OHM

Over the years i have seen the progression of officers drop off for many reasons. The biggest that i hear is " I do not want to get stuck at map" .  

I also see officers online and not one talking to each other or to the players.  They just are doing whatever let things just flounder about.  This happens on both sides. When this happens it hurts the game.  

Running the map is not an easy thing to do.  It takes great experience to be good at it and calling on map movers is far and few these day.

So removing the brigades will help relieve some of the stress of being a map mover.  There will still be the need of effective map movers to lead the battles!

 

The current High Command should be in contact with squads and players setting up attacks now! But that really does not happen.....what happens is an officer logs on and if he wants he will become map OIC and start one or maybe two attacks and then logs off and not tell the next officers logging in nothing.

Read very carefully at what CSM308 is saying here !!!!!! He understands  exactly what is going to take place! The real old time Vets will know what to do and that will be getting SQuads growing. Now is the time to start getting YOUR  Squad prepared for the future.  The ones that do not prepare will suffer.   WE are going the route of being more squad friendly!!! The game is better with squads growing and being active. 

  

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PITTPETE
Quote

WE are going the route of being more squad friendly!!! The game is better with squads growing and being active. 

Wooohoo, this vet can't wait..:wub:

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gsc

 

...and just exactly WHAT is stopping Squads / HC and whatnot from engaging in all those pre. 1.27 Fun Activities WITH Flags - ie. NOW - on the board?

 

Srysly, everyone NEEDs to be FORCED to go back to pre-historic mechanisms or else..?

 

"Remember when..." ....right

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Bierbaer

Personally, as a player and squad CO, I'm looking forward to 1.36. I hope it is going to bring back some pre TO&E feelings. However, while the 1.36 patch is going to be implemented within hours on deployment day, the transition of the community will take a couple months to adapt to it.

As CSM said, there's no guarantee that more officers are going to join, that more are going to log in. But I certainly am positive that exactly this is happening. Because it makes room for those natural born leaders in the field who haven't stepped up in the past because they did not want to end up on map and burn out after a short period of time. With the huge responsibiltiy of babysitting the flags being off the table, it will give the high command more opportunities to re-shape themselves, doing what they are "supposed" to do - leading! This has nothing to do with HC driving FMS's or busting FBs. It's about communicating and organizing squads and people.

If you are honest to yourself, when have you seen that the last time? This cannot be done by one person running the map. It is a 24/7 process in game and out of game, which will have to be carried on multiple shoulders.

It opens the way to greater overall communication and organization. It though aint going to happen right after deploying 1.36. It will take the community time to adapt, leaders will have to be found and the playerbase has to grow to make it happen. It won't be there all off the sudden just because CRS deployed a patch. Everyone will have to contribute to make it a success. Slowly but steadily.

 

bb

 

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Capco
1 hour ago, BIERBAER said:

If you are honest to yourself, when have you seen that the last time? This cannot be done by one person running the map. It is a 24/7 process in game and out of game, which will have to be carried on multiple shoulders.

Look.  I understand why we are going the direction of 1.36.  There are good reasons being brought forth.  But then there are outright false statements like these being touted as fact.  

 

The last time I saw this was the last time I played regularly: during my CinC term.  My staff and I spent countless hours leading in game and out of game, organizing squads, in the forums, on social media, in game, while MOIC and while not MOIC.

 

Having someone managing brigades did not affect our ability to organize the Allies into a victory for the record books.  C118 was the only campaign in at least the past 30 campaigns where the underpop side was the victor.  That was accomplished by doing all the things you guys think are going to be automatic in 1.36, in the environment of movable brigades.  

 

I get that I lost the TOEs battle.  But I'm also not going to stand by idly while misinformation is being passed around.  

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delems

*** WE are going the route of being more squad friendly!!!

Pardon my skepticism, but what exactly is being done in this direction.  Not words, actual changes.

Squad missions?

Squad HQ PPO?

In game member rank, CO assigned?

Squad flag/supply?

Sub team within squad (like rifle team, LMG team)

I like to see you saying that, but don't believe it.  Need specifics.

Edited by delems

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bmw
23 hours ago, csm308 said:

I get the feeling that many of those (not all of course) posting negatively about 1.36, simply either weren't playing the game from 2001 to 2007 (Pre-TO&E's) or weren't in the HC's at that time. 

Even without flags to move, HC officers were incredibly busy.  Busy doing what you may ask?  Planning and conducting operations with your squad, or with the squads in your unit, or HC-wide if it was a side-wide operation.   The GHC at the time had an organization based upon timezones.  My unit, the 3rd Panzer Division, had a EURO command team and a US command team.  HBD250, the squad CO of 250 Hispana, was the EURO commander of 3rd PD EURO and Soldat10, Panzer Lehr CO, was the 3rd PD US commander.  They shared command and planned and conducted operations for their timezones, and/or cooperated to initiate an operation in EURO time and carry it through into the US timezone.

Without flags, the biggest part of operational planning was overstocking the units in preparation for the attack.  Overstocking could take place up to a week in advance, 24/7, before the actual attack.  Normal overstock was 2-3 days before an attack.  Huge amounts of equipment were overstocked to make them available for an attack.  I don't know what the overstock limit will be for 1.36 but the current overstock limit will have to increased markedly to get people to actually do it.

Operations were going on constantly, so you and your squad were either leading an operation or were participating in another unit's operation.  Tactical expertise was the coin of the realm for squad and HC leadership.  You couldn't be considered a good leader if you didn't know how to conduct an attack or a defense of a town.  1.36 may bring that back. 

Those who are saying that people won't join the new HC simply don't understand what it was like pre-TO&E's.  My Kampfgruppe, KG-2 of the 3rd PD US, had a CO, XO, XXO and OIC 1-10 positions within it.  That's thirteen HC officers for just one KG.  Those positions were almost always full and there was competition to be added as people were promoted up.  I kid you not! 

No doubt it will be a painful few months as 1.36 is initiated.  HC's are so depleted that it won't be fixed over night.  I imagine it will be up to a year before the new system takes hold and squads realize the full potential of the system.

As for towns being "owned," my squad, Panzer Lehr, chose Andenne as our home town, in addition to what ever town the GHC selected as our KG frontline town.  Coincidentally, the Allied Squad, 3rd Canadian Division, had also chosen Andenne as THEIR home town.  For several years it was a constant battle for ownership of Andenne.  It was a point of honor as to who owned Andenne.  It became quite manic as the squads battled back and forth their home town.  You had to be playing in those years to understand the intensity of "owning" your town. That sense of "ownership" can be made to come back with help from CRS in the public relations department.

The possibilities for 1.36 could be immense if approached and enacted properly.

VR

^^^^^ All true.  I was there, I was in HC and it was a great time for the game in that regards and hopefully 1.36 can return some of that.

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Capco

Okay, I actually think I understand now...

 

It is the out of game organizing that might be the difference maker.  In the current system (one entirely reliant on humans moving brigades), moving brigades in game gets in the way of people getting involved with out of game organizing by compelling them not to join HC, with HC being the major conduit for organizing your side.  Some people just don't want to put in the effort of organizing out of game if they have to take map when they log on.  In my example above, I put together a team who didn't mind moving brigades and thus were able to overcome that hurdle.  It's a hurdle that is entirely perception based unfortunately, but it's still a hurdle nonetheless.  

 

More organization out of game may indirectly affect the amount content creation in game.  

 

I still think it's a hopeful gamble and wishful thinking, but at least I understand the line of logic now.  All these people fighting for this change better put their money where their mouth is and start organizing once 1.36 comes out!!!!  The only way this works is if people step up to the plate!

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vasduten1
13 minutes ago, capco said:

Okay, I actually think I understand now...

 

It is the out of game organizing that might be the difference maker.  In the current system (one entirely reliant on humans moving brigades), moving brigades in game gets in the way of people getting involved with out of game organizing by compelling them not to join HC, with HC being the major conduit for organizing your side.  Some people just don't want to put in the effort of organizing out of game if they have to take map when they log on.  In my example above, I put together a team who didn't mind moving brigades and thus were able to overcome that hurdle.  It's a hurdle that is entirely perception based unfortunately, but it's still a hurdle nonetheless.  

 

More organization out of game may indirectly affect the amount content creation in game.  

 

I still think it's a hopeful gamble and wishful thinking, but at least I understand the line of logic now.  All these people fighting for this change better put their money where their mouth is and start organizing once 1.36 comes out!!!!  The only way this works is if people step up to the plate!

I, for one, will certainly join GHC if they'll have me.

 

The biggest reason I left was because I got stuck moving flags all the time. Nobody was on, or didn't want to take map or both.

 

You log in to have some fun and play this game, and instead have to keep moving stuff around, and set all kinds of fallbacks while you're at it.

 

I always liked just getting action going by setting AOs after a conference on TS and then driving FRUs in.

I liked being there in the mix and leading on the ground.

 

When the former outweighed the latter, I got grumpy and left.

 

Whenever  I logged in and asked, "What do you need me to do?" it was "take map."

 

Blecch.

 

 

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saronin

I have been here since the beginning and have played under both systems.  Both have their positives and negatives.  I respect the decision CRS made and I understand why they made it. 

I personally never completely liked the way TOEs were implemented but did see the cool strategic appeal for some of the player base.  However, from a tactical perspective I always felt they dumbed the game down.  Town completely surrounded and out of supply? No problem.  Just warp in a new brigade that appears like magic to bolster the defense from the inside.  No need to organize a tank column and drive to try and come to the rescue.  I never much cared for that dynamic.

Then there was trying to teach new players the brigade system.  Not much of a big deal for those of us who grew up along side all the changes as they were implemented.  To a new player though, the UI can turn them off.  The original UI was simple.  Click on town and see list of missions.

As I understand HC will still be in control of AOs which is by far the most important dynamic.  AOs are what funnel people into one place to attack and defend. 

There still will be a strategic layer to the game.  Cut offs will still be technically possible but more difficult to achieve.  Now instead of having a free run of soft caps every town will have to be fought over.  I don't think that's a bad thing.  One thing that has plagued this game at times is a lack of real action.  Soft caps are the most glaringly obvious example of this.

I say give the new system a chance.  You might actually like it.  HC can still lead but they just have to do it in a different way.  The will have to...GASP... communicate with people to do so.

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monsjoex

@capco

I ran a squad ops last tuesday playing for like 6+ hours straight. We managed to cap rocroi and chilly and busted a hole in the enemy line. Then axis waa scrambling to get their brigades back.

In this time i was doing map oic with the excellent help of alvar and other hc. But it was really exhausting. Im a long time map mover but it takes a lot of time and effort to check all the .ne's and .du's(will be there in the future but per town and doesnt effect that much, other than "guys please spare supply in that town)

It is 'fun' in a sense. But the most fun is actually just playing the game with friends and capturing towns/killing stuff.

Those minutes i spend worrying about the flags i could -all- put in chatting on ch33 instead to coordinate an attack.

We would lose the chess game but the chess game is only really fun for the guys playing it. Not really for the pawns on the board. And often its not even fun for the chess players. 

Yes TOE did give us the unique opportunity to make a worthless town suddenly strategically important ( stopping a snake) and everyone would play more. But as soon as this high action event is done then 1 side's population goes into the crapper because of the huge loss of ground.  I feel TOE gives too much up and downs in gameplay and is not constant enough. Its a 8 or a 4 not constantly 7.

Edited by monsjoex
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stankyus

HC pre TO&E separated true leaders from the ones who joined ocs and got their HC tag. HC constantly required attention from the pb directly which developed real leaders. You got to follow those you wanted to, not be forced into action by funneling.  

 

Another up side idle as an allied player... the Metz cutoff is no longer a cakewalk. There will never be a soft cap spree again, and you will have the ability to start overstocking strategic towns of importance were cities like Antwerp, lux etc will require pb effort... that part I love. 

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Quincannon

AS someone who has been MOIC many times...I would love to know how to  communicate better with squads and players when they refuse to communicate back.

I'm not insulting anyone, but I can't count how many times I was on the map and NO ONE would respond in chat to questions I asked, and Teamspeak was a ghost town.

How is Town supply going to change that? Lots of people are saying how well Squads will work together with HC, but no one is saying how. Will squads start using TS because of the change? Will each HC have to download a bunch of different comm programs because one uses program X and another uses program Y and neither will use teamspeak? I'm sorry, but nothing I have heard will make it easier for HC or Squads to communicate with each other in game, and to be homnest i have zero idea how out of game comms are goign to work when people are in game.

Also...I have asked, and no one has answered... What's going to happen to new players who don't understand the squad system and those who can't or won't join Squads? I have said before: You can't make people join squads, and a lot of people won't join squads until they understand what's going on in a game. If nothing else, i think HC needs to be around to help these folks figure out what to do and where to go. Saying 'join a squad or else' isn't always taken very well.

(On a personal note, while I love supporting the game...no way I spend days of my too tiny playing time doing nothing but driving tanks from one town to another. That would be about 100 times worse than being stuck running the map. Why anyone would want to do nothing but drive vehicles from one town to another for hours on end is a mystery to me)

S!
 

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gsc
1 hour ago, Quincannon said:

AS someone who has been MOIC many times...I would love to know how to  communicate better with squads and players when they refuse to communicate back.

I'm not insulting anyone, but I can't count how many times I was on the map and NO ONE would respond in chat to questions I asked, and Teamspeak was a ghost town.

How is Town supply going to change that? Lots of people are saying how well Squads will work together with HC, but no one is saying how. Will squads start using TS because of the change? Will each HC have to download a bunch of different comm programs because one uses program X and another uses program Y and neither will use teamspeak? I'm sorry, but nothing I have heard will make it easier for HC or Squads to communicate with each other in game, and to be homnest i have zero idea how out of game comms are goign to work when people are in game.

Also...I have asked, and no one has answered... What's going to happen to new players who don't understand the squad system and those who can't or won't join Squads? I have said before: You can't make people join squads, and a lot of people won't join squads until they understand what's going on in a game. If nothing else, i think HC needs to be around to help these folks figure out what to do and where to go. Saying 'join a squad or else' isn't always taken very well.

(On a personal note, while I love supporting the game...no way I spend days of my too tiny playing time doing nothing but driving tanks from one town to another. That would be about 100 times worse than being stuck running the map. Why anyone would want to do nothing but drive vehicles from one town to another for hours on end is a mystery to me)

S!
 

...."Remember when..." ...good old times - join the nostalgia already

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Mosizlak
1 hour ago, gsc said:

...."Remember when..." ...good old times - join the nostalgia already

I member'! 

 

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B2K

It's kind of amusing - just reading through the comments you can tell who was HC prior to flags and TO&E and who is wasn't.  There are pro's and con's to both.  PERSONALLY I'm concerned that the battles will be a bit stale as each town will have similar supply sets (for Army (and yes size dependent)).  Though on the other hand as each sides 'set' will be known, the counting of killed units to determine battle success may make a comeback.  

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Capco
7 hours ago, Quincannon said:

AS someone who has been MOIC many times...I would love to know how to  communicate better with squads and players when they refuse to communicate back.

I'm not insulting anyone, but I can't count how many times I was on the map and NO ONE would respond in chat to questions I asked, and Teamspeak was a ghost town.

How is Town supply going to change that? Lots of people are saying how well Squads will work together with HC, but no one is saying how. Will squads start using TS because of the change? Will each HC have to download a bunch of different comm programs because one uses program X and another uses program Y and neither will use teamspeak? I'm sorry, but nothing I have heard will make it easier for HC or Squads to communicate with each other in game, and to be homnest i have zero idea how out of game comms are goign to work when people are in game.

Also...I have asked, and no one has answered... What's going to happen to new players who don't understand the squad system and those who can't or won't join Squads? I have said before: You can't make people join squads, and a lot of people won't join squads until they understand what's going on in a game. If nothing else, i think HC needs to be around to help these folks figure out what to do and where to go. Saying 'join a squad or else' isn't always taken very well.

(On a personal note, while I love supporting the game...no way I spend days of my too tiny playing time doing nothing but driving tanks from one town to another. That would be about 100 times worse than being stuck running the map. Why anyone would want to do nothing but drive vehicles from one town to another for hours on end is a mystery to me)

S!
 

Good post Quin.  

I also agree 100% about the driving tank chat room saga that everyone is looking forward to.  I did resupply missions in the past, but only because I didn't know what the hell was going on.  My time will be spent on actually creating content, not Euro Truck Simulator: 1942 AFVs Edition.

Is this going to be a job left for the deplorables?  Because if I see guys driving around backline who could actually make a difference on the front (jsilec, lob12, etc) I'm going to lose my [censored].  The game pop is just too low to have any portion of the PB doing overstocking missions.  The only side with the man-hours to do it is going to be the more generally overpop side.  That means that once one side has momentum and people on the other side stop logging in, you only further cement the Cycle of Suck because the overpop side is essentially able to "store" man-hours of work until it is most opportunistic for them to use that supply.  

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XOOM
15 minutes ago, capco said:

Good post Quin.  

I also agree 100% about the driving tank chat room saga that everyone is looking forward to.  I did resupply missions in the past, but only because I didn't know what the hell was going on.  My time will be spent on actually creating content, not Euro Truck Simulator: 1942 AFVs Edition.

Is this going to be a job left for the deplorables?  Because if I see guys driving around backline who could actually make a difference on the front (jsilec, lob12, etc) I'm going to lose my [censored].  The game pop is just too low to have any portion of the PB doing overstocking missions.  The only side with the man-hours to do it is going to be the more generally overpop side.  That means that once one side has momentum and people on the other side stop logging in, you only further cement the Cycle of Suck because the overpop side is essentially able to "store" man-hours of work until it is most opportunistic for them to use that supply.  

No one will be forcing people to drive up, and although it may not be an every day occurrence, maybe that's something they want to do to take a break from the norm and still help contribute?

If you wish to receive constructive and professional responses you need to reciprocate that. It's abundantly clear that you're skeptical and not approving of all of this, and while the forums are a place to share your thoughts I think this above post was probably the least tasteful I've ever read of yours.

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monsjoex
26 minutes ago, capco said:

Good post Quin.  

I also agree 100% about the driving tank chat room saga that everyone is looking forward to.  I did resupply missions in the past, but only because I didn't know what the hell was going on.  My time will be spent on actually creating content, not Euro Truck Simulator: 1942 AFVs Edition.

Is this going to be a job left for the deplorables?  Because if I see guys driving around backline who could actually make a difference on the front (jsilec, lob12, etc) I'm going to lose my [censored].  The game pop is just too low to have any portion of the PB doing overstocking missions.  The only side with the man-hours to do it is going to be the more generally overpop side.  That means that once one side has momentum and people on the other side stop logging in, you only further cement the Cycle of Suck because the overpop side is essentially able to "store" man-hours of work until it is most opportunistic for them to use that supply.  

Actually this would help the underpopulated side because these "stored" man-hours probably are not worth an equal amount of hours on the frontline.
 

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