monsjoex

LMG's: improve them and weaken them.

37 posts in this topic

What needs to be done:
1. Reduce muzzle flash on all LMG's.
2. Make them heavier/slower to carry around and  slower to look around a corner than SMG.
3. Slow down MG34 reload time, it is simply unhistorical so fast it is.
4. If infantry is still unbalanced, lower axis supplies/increase allied ones just like with the armor and air games.With the below stats, how can we ignore that infantry supplies or even infantry gun performance needs to be balanced out just like the other aspects of the game?
5. Reduce ammo on the MG34, why does it have 6 times 50 bullets?  Same for the allied LMG's, 12 mags thats an enormous load. Now we have ammo caches we should force the use of them. 
Standard packing was 1 ammo drum for the gunner and 4 drums for the assistant gunner on the MG34. Yet we have 1 guy with 6 drums or 12 mag's? Rambo much?

 

 

MG34

Campaign History
  Kills Deaths K/D Kills Deaths K/D
French Rifleman 997 399 2.5 908,331 551,92 1.65
French Submachine Gunner 706 395 1.79 693,201 383,227 1.81
British Rifleman 394 169 2.33 559,598 302,643 1.85
British Submachine Gunner 347 218 1.59 406,127 248,648 1.63
French M3A1 Submachine Gunner 311 184 1.69 8,282 5,893 1.41
French Light Machine Gunner 275 150 1.83 350,685 258,158 1.36
French Limited M3A1 Submachine Gunner 162 103 1.57 5,243 3,358 1.56
British Light Machine Gunner 115 78 1.47 182,38 135,014 1.35
British Sten Mk II Submachine Gunner 107 45 2.38 4,186 2,542 1.65

 

French LMG

Campaign History
  Kills Deaths K/D Kills Deaths K/D
German Submachine Gunner 285 301 0.95 416,025 316,819 1.31
German Rifleman 248 222 1.12 557,104 460,887 1.21
German Light Machine Gunner 150 275 0.55 258,158 350,685 0.74
German Limited MP34 Submachine Gunner 84 48 1.75 1,831 1,548 1.18
German MP34 Submachine Gunner 77 59 1.31 2,335 2,161 1.08

 

British LMG Campaign History
  Kills Deaths K/D Kills Deaths K/D
German Rifleman 156 106 1.47 305,204 259,418 1.18
German Submachine Gunner 135 138 0.98 217,684 159,312 1.37
German Light Machine Gunner 78 115 0.68 135,014 182,38 0.74
German MP34 Submachine Gunner 37 22 1.68 1,566 1,232 1.27
German Limited MP34 Submachine Gunner 21 27 0.78 1,167 909 1.28

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Soon as armored cars are balanced, I'm all for looking at LMGs.

232, 6 kills, 56 deaths = 0.107

pan, 51 kills, 89 deaths = 0.573

That is over 5x better.

I do agree though, if ammo load outs and reload times (all weapons, not just axis LMG) are off, they should be changed to be more real life like.  Under the heat of battle, there are some pretty fast reloads going on imo.

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You have take that with a lot of salt.. MG 34 has been nerfed a couple of times. Campaign Overpopulation and Underpopulation also takes a toll.

I don't want a blind balance like they do in Heroes & Generals like actually changing damage and historical rates of fire or change the supply, in WW2ol every soldier can kill a LMG with one shot and terrain and position has a lot to do with how many kills you get.

- MG 34 was a very good weapon

- It had a semi-fire option and was very accurate.

- Could be used while standing and aiming for short burst and on semi-auto

- You could use a Dual Drum Magazine to increase the ammo count.

 

What agree:

- Seriously reduced the number of muzzle flash per bullet.

- Ability to look down iron sights while standing & firing (MG 34 takes a toll here since it's heavier)

- Heavier mouse movement when using any LMG (MG 34 takes a toll here since it's heavier)

- Reduce to 150-200 rounds for MG 34

- Semi-Auto Fire for MG 34

- Reduced accuracy when shooting while standing & looking down iron-sights compared to other LMGs

- Both Bar and MG 34 have higher reload times.

- Barrel Overheating & changing for MG 34.

- Redorchestra force walk hip fire requiring tripod deploy. ( no more hip fire while running possibly for all LMG)

 

Edited by pbveteran

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I agree with lower equip loadouts.

I'd like to see muzzle flash reduced, even eliminated if firing single bullets.

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This is hard to swallow.

Where is the counterpart to the Laffy15, counterpart to the tier0 Allied ATG that take any panzer out, and I'm talking small mobile ATG , counterpart to the Dac and Pan cause the 232 and P2 ain't it. 

May I quote DOC.

"Learn to adjust , learn to flank " 

This was his quote many many years ago when the Tank vs Tank discussions were going on in these forum to the Axis Panzer playerbase.

Yes the MG34 is a beast when used in the right manner , just like the Matilda and Char are, but with one difference 1 Bullet from a rifle will silence the MG34 .

One round from any Panzer will not silence the Char or Matilda .

The MG34 was the machine gun so much so that the modern counterparts like M60 and German M3 still resemble the MG34.

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, delems said:

Soon as armored cars are balanced, I'm all for looking at LMGs.

232, 6 kills, 56 deaths = 0.107

pan, 51 kills, 89 deaths = 0.573

That is over 5x better.

I do agree though, if ammo load outs and reload times (all weapons, not just axis LMG) are off, they should be changed to be more real life like.  Under the heat of battle, there are some pretty fast reloads going on imo.

What do LMG's have to do with armored cars?

Tit for Tat?

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Thank you for the additional suggestions pbveteran. Especially the "bring up your gun to fire" so you cant run and fire should be brought back in. And the muzzle flash reduction would probably do the most to balance since i suspect the allied LMG is hurting the most by it. You need to see the target more than with the mg34 where you can spray and move the gun slightly left/right and trust on the high ROF. Or you shoot a salvo of 4-5 bullets and then look. With the allied lmg a 4-5 bullet salvo takes too long for you to not see what you aim for.

I don't really follow posts on the comparison with panhards and claiming the mg34 was simply a good gun. The tiger was simply a good tank -> axis get few of them. The matty is a good tank -> allied get few of them. The tank numbers are altered to also cope for the AT capabilities of the panhard. The mg34 however is in same supply as the allied lmgs. That does not make sense.

You can claim that the tank game is still unbalanced, but everyone agrees that the tank numbers per side are to be different. With the infantry game however we suddenly assume its a red vs blue game.

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The 1944 grease gun (most accurate in game), in 1940.... kinda makes up for the LMG imo....

And now Brits get the garand in tier 1, while already having the best fastest bolt rifle.  Not only that, all your LMGs will be shoulder fireable, unlike the mg34.

Ya got RDP advantage and the best fighter, bomber, tanks, SMG, ATGs and armored cars..... can't we keep the LMG at least ?

 

Edited by delems

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3 minutes ago, delems said:

The 1944 grease gun (most accurate in game), in 1940.... kinda makes up for the LMG imo....

And now Brits get the garand in tier 1, while already having the best fastest bolt rifle.

Ya got RDP advantage and the best fighter, bomber, tanks, SMG, ATGs and armored cars..... can't we keep the LMG at least ?

 

I dont really buy into the argument that for some reason the infantry supply is currently -perfectly- balancing the game with 1:1 supplies. Like the holy grail of balance.

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I think if you want to make LMGs more realistic and weaken them by making it more of a burden to move them, reload them, and  (or) fire them while standing up, then you also should strengthen the lmg by given it better suppression fire when it is in a good well-deployed position .

I mean in real life a well-placed and deployed LMG could pin down a whole squad from moving around without killing anyone.  (So could mortars).  You dont really have that in this game. Direct hits are modelled in this game but realistic suppression fire is not.   Everyone is a Rambo in this game - naturally - since there is little concern about death.

 

Not sure how (or if) its possible to model suppression fire in this game.   Maybe the ability to slow down the movement of enemy infantry a little  if a deployed LMG near misses them to simulate a pinning down effect.  Butt that might get annoying too.  Not sure.

I also think the LMG should be able to be deployed from more  locations in game (like windows in buildings) .  And maybe the background lighting inside buildings should be darker so people don't spot LMG deployed in a window so easily.  (Hopefully CRS can do this when  they can edit terrain).

Just some thoughts.

 

Edited by krazydog

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4 hours ago, krazydog said:

I think if you want to make LMGs more realistic and weaken them by making it more of a burden to move them, reload them, and  (or) fire them while standing up, then you also should strengthen the lmg by given it better suppression fire when it is in a good well-deployed position .

I mean in real life a well-placed and deployed LMG could pin down a whole squad from moving around without killing anyone.  (So could mortars).  You dont really have that in this game. Direct hits are modelled in this game but realistic suppression fire is not.   Everyone is a Rambo in this game - naturally - since there is little concern about death.

 

Not sure how (or if) its possible to model suppression fire in this game.   Maybe the ability to slow down the movement of enemy infantry a little  if a deployed LMG near misses them to simulate a pinning down effect.  Butt that might get annoying too.  Not sure.

I also think the LMG should be able to be deployed from more  locations in game (like windows in buildings) .  And maybe the background lighting inside buildings should be darker so people don't spot LMG deployed in a window so easily.  (Hopefully CRS can do this when  they can edit terrain).

Just some thoughts.

 

You pinpoint 1 of the main issues with the lmg yeah. It should be used for deploying in the field and mowing down scores of infantry. But it is used mostly as a replacement for the smg.

In the field the lmgs lack performance. Its too easy for a single rifleman to snipe you.

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None of the rifles, pistols, submachine guns and light machine guns could be reliably reloaded at the rate they are in game by the average soldier in combat conditions, whilst accurately depicting how they would actually reload. The MG34 is perfectly fine as it is - don't forget the other advantages the Allies get, like the British Lee Enfield which bolts twice as fast as other rifles with twice the magazine capacity, the Grease Gun which is the most accurate, and powerful SMG in the game, the Matilda and B1, which are the strongest Tier 0 tanks in the game, the Panhard which has much more armour than the 232, and a higher caliber gun etc.

THe Axis deserve to keep the MG34 just as it is - it is accurately depicted as the devastating weapon it was in the right situation. I see no changes that should be made, besides maybe a universal increase to reload time for all infantry guns in general.

Edited by rule303
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Those of you trying to bring up Allied tank/AC advantages in T0/T1:  those advantages are balanced out by giving the Axis a [censored] ton more armor than the Allies.  

 

Why not apply the same rule to infantry?  Just because they are infantry, they should have a 1 for 1 balance?

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@ delems

your biased agenda is glaringly obvious in your posts.

you are the first reply to a thread about LMGs, by posting about a scout car imbalance.??

You follow that up with a post about how the axis have inferior equipment in everything.

The only saving grace being the axis LMG. However, that advantage is balanced by the allied grease gun.

Im wondering (without checking stats) how much time you've spent with the allied grease gun to determine its quality?

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*** your biased agenda is glaringly obvious in your posts.

Instead of just making a claim, refute any one of my assertions with facts.  For I can provide evidence of every one of my assertions. 

And, talking about bias, I notice you disregard the fact that the grease gun isn't even available in 1940, and go right to the accuracy issue, interesting.....

I don't have that much time on the grease gun, but I do have more than one would guess; that is all I will say about that.  It is a superb SMG imo.

 

And, in case one forgot logic, if disease A kills 5 people per day, and disease B kills 1.5, which one you going to cure first?

That is the armored car and LMG ratio... which should we fix first?

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Dear Capco

Here is why your theory is wrong .

Park Matilda on exit 1 , spawn every Axis Panzer and drive out exit 1 = Axis Panzer spawn list empty and dead.

Drive Panzer out exit 2 come around to Matilda = Panzer still as dead do that over and over = Axis Panzer spawn list empty.

Now to LMG,  run Allied Inf out exit 1 , Allied Inf dead. 

Run Allied Inf out  exit 2 one shot onto lmg = LMG dead and you still have plenty of INF in spawn pool .

I don't think I can explain it any easier . 

The tier 0 Panzer does not stand a chance vs Matilda and only the Stug3b has a slight chance vs Char .

On Matilda you have to hit the main gun at the right spot just to degun it ,or come within 50 meters onto his sapper spot to make him flame with an AP round.

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15 hours ago, monsjoex said:

You can claim that the tank game is still unbalanced, but everyone agrees that the tank numbers per side are to be different. With the infantry game however we suddenly assume its a red vs blue game.

Because...all infantry have the same hitpoints, travel at the same speeds, nearly all weapons can kill infantry in one shot and all infantry have direct counterparts on the other faction. No faction gets a special infantry type that the others don't. There are multiple generic infantry classes that play exactly the same and just have rifles and grenades switched out. The different LMGs don't get special abilities or resistances. The only practical differences are magazine size, rate of fire, recoil and reload times. Even the differences in accuracy, ballistics, and caliber turn out to be irrelevant details most of the time.

 

There are tanks meanwhile that are invulnerable or practically invulnerable and there are many tanks with no direct counterpart. Some tanks will also reliably defeat everything else below them. You can literally park a tank in the right position and lord over an entire brigade's spawn list. Every faction's LMG on the other hand has the same vulnerability.

 

I can't believe that people are trying to talk about balance without mentioning health or time-to-kill. I mean it must require willful ignorance. The last time the allies theorycrafted the axis LMG numbers down it was hilarious, I think it was Kilemall or someone who convinced Doc that the MG34 was equivalent to a tank because it had a higher rate-of-fire and suddenly one map there were a lot less MG34s.

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36 minutes ago, delems said:

And, in case one forgot logic, if disease A kills 5 people per day, and disease B kills 1.5, which one you going to cure first?

That is the armored car and LMG ratio... which should we fix first?

The current list as is balanced now considers Allied ACs vs other armored vehicles, not Allied ACs vs the 232.  

 

IF you got your 5-1 ratio, that would mean you are balancing the ACs of both sides in a vacuum, and thus it wouldn't be fair to continue to consider the Allied ACs vs other armored vehicles (meaning we would get some more A13s/H39s/S35s or you would get fewer 3fs/38ts).  

 

It's better for the Axis the way it is now.

Edited by capco

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*** It's better for the Axis the way it is now.

It may be, not sure... unless you happen to want to play armored car more.  Then it isn't.  I'd love to drive a 232 around the flank and kill a sherman 76, the way a silent DAC flanks 2 Tigers and flames them in seconds.  Seen it done, haven't got to do it.

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5 hours ago, delems said:

*** your biased agenda is glaringly obvious in your posts.

Instead of just making a claim, refute any one of my assertions with facts.  For I can provide evidence of every one of my assertions. 

And, talking about bias, I notice you disregard the fact that the grease gun isn't even available in 1940, and go right to the accuracy issue, interesting.....

I don't have that much time on the grease gun, but I do have more than one would guess; that is all I will say about that.  It is a superb SMG imo.

 

And, in case one forgot logic, if disease A kills 5 people per day, and disease B kills 1.5, which one you going to cure first?

That is the armored car and LMG ratio... which should we fix first?

We have differing numbers of tanks. In this equation the panhard is taken into account. Just ask XOOM.
In the meanwhile its 30 axis lmg vs 30 allied lmg (tier1, think tier0 has more?)

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On 22/12/2016 at 5:02 AM, monsjoex said:

1. Reduce muzzle flash on all LMG's.

Will this make it easier to look thru the sights and see the target? I can't see anything when firing with the LMG.

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Great Post! This kind of play offers a very needed aspect to the game that would help bond players to squads and offer some context that the other million FPS games don't have.

But all this is mute until players have a way to organize before spawning.  We need a UI with a Ready Room that allows squad leaders to organize team members, assign load-outs, tasks, transportation, etc..  - because doing it in the field is like herding cats.

Edited by carlz

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I think the Axis LMG is fine just as it is. In fact, I'd support beginning in Tier 3 that the MG34 becomes a reserve LMG and is replaced with the MG42, with a faster firing rate and larger drum. I want actual realistic and authentic brigade loadouts, rather than this, 'let's all have every unit the same in balance,' crap. Nobody complains about the balance of the Lee Enfield's super fast bolt, the G43s higher capacity magazines and fast reload times, the 2-Pounders 360 degree traverse, the FG42s insane firepower, the fact that German grenadiers explode on impact etc etc...

Yet everyone gets so anal about Matildas and MG34s, and I just don't get it. They all were there and all are depicted as the devastating weapons they really are. Just adapt, it's really easy.

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12 hours ago, rule303 said:

I think the Axis LMG is fine just as it is. In fact, I'd support beginning in Tier 3 that the MG34 becomes a reserve LMG and is replaced with the MG42, with a faster firing rate and larger drum. I want actual realistic and authentic brigade loadouts, rather than this, 'let's all have every unit the same in balance,' crap. Nobody complains about the balance of the Lee Enfield's super fast bolt, the G43s higher capacity magazines and fast reload times, the 2-Pounders 360 degree traverse, the FG42s insane firepower, the fact that German grenadiers explode on impact etc etc...

Yet everyone gets so anal about Matildas and MG34s, and I just don't get it. They all were there and all are depicted as the devastating weapons they really are. Just adapt, it's really easy.

Actually, everyone does whine about all that stuff lol

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