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Population Imbalance & Goals

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pbveteran

The main problem with population imbalance is spawn camping... this is the single reason why players quit, it's so frustrating because you can't kill or enjoy the game. There needs to be more spawn protection, underpop has to be more deadly and the OP must be slowed down, so they can't overrun the defenders and spawn camp them.

Edited by pbveteran

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xpamobhuk

You can not protect spawns in any way. Even if devs make you appear undergrund where you totally safe, you ll be shot when you try to get out of it. You can create as many proyection layers around it, there will be a last door anyway.

The only reasonable thing is to warn players somehow that spawn is camped. Usually it supposed to be a pkayers job, but underpopped side could have only few muted ones. So simple alarm saying that you are about to spawn where 5 players have been killed in last 10 seconds...

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schweize

Spawn camping is an unfortunate part of this game, and is really frustating but I fear it is something that can't be removed from the game.
What can you do? Give a 10 second immunity to a player spawning in to give them a chance to run away from the campers?
10 seconds of being able to see what is going on and move but not have the ability to shoot, even if used as an idea, it would be quickly used in a way it was not meant to.

Multiple FMS per mission where you would spawn in at a random one, the frustation would come where squads can no longer spawn in together, or if you want to work a specific part of town and you spawn on the opposite side.

Built in trench leading away from FMS, that way tanks can no longer just sit at a spawn and shoot MG as the fear of a panzerschreck popping up would be too great?

Would be great if one day we found a solution and when that day comes, hopefully FMS/FRU or whatever system is used become much harder to destroy.

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jwilly
1 hour ago, schweize said:

Spawn camping is an unfortunate part of this game, and is really frustating but I fear it is something that can't be removed from the game.

Envision a game world with no ABs, depots, FBs, mobile spawns/FRUs/similar stuff, or fixed location spawn points.

The game world is divided into tactical zones on the size-order of a couple of hundred meters, capture of which occurs when the zone is adjacent to a friendly zone with a contiguous link to a friendly road, and your side has enough of your troops in the zone and there are few enough of the enemy's for long enough.

In this game world, troops have a morale parameter, which depends strongly on being proximal to a sufficient number of friendlies. If your morale is too low, you don't contribute to capture and you have more gun shake/aiming uncertainty. So, players tend to operate in tactical groups because it makes them more efficient and survivable...kind of like in real war. Those groups can be based on Squads, or they can be whoever else is playing when you play.

The game auto-displays which zones contain enemy troops. Secrecy and sneaking are designed-out to achieve the essential marketing goal of assuring that every player can find targets to shoot at.

Troops can spawn in any friendly zone that doesn't contain any enemy troops and isn't adjacent to a zone that does. Every zone has a spawn location, located out of direct observability if possible. 

That's it. No more spawn camping, no more defending-in-the-round. No more concentration of fighting only in cities and towns.

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lipton

Whenever the Axis is overpop.... nerf the rudder on the 09, reduce the number of stugs and Tigers to 1 and make the axis rg/shotgun fire backwards.   :popcorn:

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thm000

Only two things have ever won a battle at better than 3 to 1 odds. Superior equipment and/or terrain that canalized the fight.  I don't think CRS has the technology to make a 1KM long 20m wide minefield pop up when one side becomes OP. You need some way to mass affect terrain from passable to impassable. That allows a small force to concentrate on the defence.

 

There was  two things a long time ago which did work. Back when there were no FRus all the infantry had to walk to town or use trucks. Because the attack came from a specific direction the defenders could focus on defending a smaller area. The other thing was the ability to store up extra good equipment. If you had a reserve of quality equipment then you could fight on longer

Edited by thm000

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Kilemall
On 1/17/2017 at 8:00 PM, thm000 said:

Only two things have ever won a battle at better than 3 to 1 odds. Superior equipment and/or terrain that canalized the fight.  I don't think CRS has the technology to make a 1KM long 20m wide minefield pop up when one side becomes OP. You need some way to mass affect terrain from passable to impassable. That allows a small force to concentrate on the defence.

 

There was  two things a long time ago which did work. Back when there were no FRus all the infantry had to walk to town or use trucks. Because the attack came from a specific direction the defenders could focus on defending a smaller area. The other thing was the ability to store up extra good equipment. If you had a reserve of quality equipment then you could fight on longer

Agreed on the defense sector issue, but I don't think the modern gamer would sign up for the 10 minute drive/30 second fight paradigm to service that 'solution'.

 

As to overstocking, if your side is short of people, it is likely they are not overstocking, the overpop side is.  That helps accelerate overpop campaign victory, not make for underpopped tactical relevance.

 

Which brings up a point- part of this game is somebody needs to win and somebody needs to lose.  The traditional overpop/morale method works to achieve this, but I submit that this mechanic is counterproductive as it drives people away from having a chance to win as their chances of victory are predicated on what enough of their side or the other side decides to pony up and put in the hours.

 

Steam will no doubt boost numbers, but it won't solve the Cycle of Suck tearing at subs. 

 

We need to do better then that.

 

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sorella
On 1/10/2017 at 0:27 AM, jwilly said:

Envision a game world with no ABs, depots, FBs, mobile spawns/FRUs/similar stuff, or fixed location spawn points.

The game world is divided into tactical zones on the size-order of a couple of hundred meters, capture of which occurs when the zone is adjacent to a friendly zone with a contiguous link to a friendly road, and your side has enough of your troops in the zone and there are few enough of the enemy's for long enough.

In this game world, troops have a morale parameter, which depends strongly on being proximal to a sufficient number of friendlies. If your morale is too low, you don't contribute to capture and you have more gun shake/aiming uncertainty. So, players tend to operate in tactical groups because it makes them more efficient and survivable...kind of like in real war. Those groups can be based on Squads, or they can be whoever else is playing when you play.

The game auto-displays which zones contain enemy troops. Secrecy and sneaking are designed-out to achieve the essential marketing goal of assuring that every player can find targets to shoot at.

Troops can spawn in any friendly zone that doesn't contain any enemy troops and isn't adjacent to a zone that does. Every zone has a spawn location, located out of direct observability if possible. 

That's it. No more spawn camping, no more defending-in-the-round. No more concentration of fighting only in cities and towns.

listen to jwilly - sector maps and area capture and zone spawning. 

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patriot

How about making the AI more effective so there is a real advantage to defending?   Could be a simple as making the AI with a much wider arc of fire.  Or upgrade to an extra heavy piece of equipment.   How about making the extra heavy piece of equipment be manned by real players... but keep it statically placed.

Sounds simple and effective .... thoughts?

Patriot

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PITTPETE

In a player vs. player game i really don't think it's a great idea to make AI stronger.

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pbveteran
On 1/10/2017 at 2:54 AM, xpamobhuk said:

You can not protect spawns in any way. Even if devs make you appear undergrund where you totally safe, you ll be shot when you try to get out of it. You can create as many proyection layers around it, there will be a last door anyway.

The only reasonable thing is to warn players somehow that spawn is camped. Usually it supposed to be a pkayers job, but underpopped side could have only few muted ones. So simple alarm saying that you are about to spawn where 5 players have been killed in last 10 seconds...

Take for example the old Bunker, if everyone spawned there you could not be killed while still having a better chance at killing the enemy attackers.

What I'm referring is turning the AB in a bunker design wise, have no walls holes, have height advance, single or two exit/entry. Allow tanks to spawn with side view over entrance, directly exiting the AB there should be a wall at hull level that would allow you to set up with direct view over entrance while only exposing your turret, multiple flanking spawns points.. 

Spawn camping gets harder or even impossible the more places and from different directions you spawn from.

 

BTW in Warthunder if you kill the same player twice he gets invulnerability when he spawns for like 10 secs on which allow him to kill you.

Edited by pbveteran

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