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Sparre

PPOs to make the Navy game be turned into a true strategic asset

17 posts in this topic

Well… Xoom the ol’salty seadog already spilled the beans in the last RatChat… He too is now pondering similar idea that I have suggested every now and then since the first PPO mobile spawn was introduced to the game. So to boil it down to make it concreate into what will make the naval game count as the real strategic asset as it was during WWII and make a different in the game do I therefore, …again… propose a number of PPO’s placed by navy vessels.

First do I suggest set of unique PPO for each vessel from where we can spawn various units.

1) The Freighter (who can ship any heavy ground units, and in mass too) should be able to place a Fortified Mobile Spawn (FMS) from where all ground equipment can  spawn‚ including heavy armor, trucks and heavy artillery.
• The Frieghter placed FMS (FFMS) should have a wider resupply range then we are used to. I suggest a range of 75 meter.
• The FFMS should supply all vessels including naval vessels as well as aircrafts.
• One FFMS should be considered to be a minor beach head.
• The FFMS could be named Beach Head (Base), which is exactly its purpose.


2) The Destroyer should be able to place a FMS with the same function as the current FMS that trucks place. Id est, from it can we spawn all infantry and light guns. (Destroyers was on a regular scale used to launch attacks behind enemy lines being able to embark good numbers of troops including substantial equipments.)
• The Destroyer placed FMS should have a good resupply range.
• I suggest a supply-range of 40 meter.
• The DFMS should be considered to be a small beach head.


3) The Fairmile should be able to place a FRU (the old infantry FRU) from where infantry only can spawn. (A Fairmile can load more troops then a truck)
• I suggest the Fairmile FRU (FFRU) is a couple of wooden crates in a dark green colour.
• The Fairmile should also be able to place a Forward Supply Point (FSP). This FSP should have a supply range of 30 meter.
• I suggest the Fairmile FSP is a couple of wooden crates and one or two oil barrels (or something else that separate them from the FFRU) all in dark green colours.


Second, and most important… I suggest that a spawn point (FFMS, DFMS and FFRU) as well as a FPS placed by naval vessels isn’t limited by the same distance rules as the ground spawn points.

Since navies is operating on a strategical level being able to operate all over the world (in stark contrast to trucks and ground brigades) should the spawn range be limited only to their theatre origin. Id est a vessel from any naval brigade located in a certain theatre should be able to set up a spawnable PPO as well as a resupply point within the whole theatre. We now have one theatre; Western Europe. Other future theaters is Eastern Europe (including Black Sea) and Mediterranean Sea et cetera… Then we have the rest of the world, but that is another story.
• In other words, the navies should be allowed to set up a PPO spawn point at any coastline (or river for the Fairmiles) regardless how far (or close) from the originating point they are.


Third, I suggest the navy PPO’s is placed with a 360° aim mechanism

This  mechanism was briefly introduced in the first open beta for v1.35. It allowed us to aim a hand grenade throw with an arc showing where the throwed grenade will land. With this very same mechanism can we place a PPO from either side of the vessel in a very smooth way.

• I suggest it is the Commander (aka lookout in-game) position who places the PPO.

• Freighters should have a range of ~8-100 meter to place a PPO
• Destroyers should have a range of ~8-60 meter to place a PPO
• Fairmiles should have a range of ~5-40 meter to place a PPO


Forth, (This is probably redundant from 1.36 since brigades and divisions will be gone) …I suggest that Army Brigades can be attached to a Navy Brigade.

This in order so that an Army brigade can be enabled to spawn from a FFMS or a DMFS. This will make the Naval Forward Bases operating as true beach heads.

I realize this demands some coding. So, again if it won't be redundant after 1.36, to compensate for that should the naval brigade housing Freighters for the time being be beefed up to be equipped as a combined Infantry and Armour brigade.
• Id est the navy brigade should be more balanced having both a good number of armour and infantry compare to the current Army Brigades.

 

Edited by Sparre
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I like most your ideas. I especially like the FMS placement ability. I would suggest trucks have a similar FMS aim function for greater fidelity.

 

Instead of attaching army units to Navy, I suggest attaching Marine divisions or their equivalent to Navy brigades.

 

I also think that in FMS placement, you should not be stuck at build screen but be able to man your guns while it builds. Guns have recoil, I would suggest that you build is unaffected by movement of the FMS, but is only determined on if your movement puts you out of max range of building placement.

I disagree with a unlimited FMS placement distance from your origin with the exception of the Islands as long as the origin is a coastline facility.  However no linky no supply unless it has a port that can support navy units. All other towns located on the river should have minimum distance FMS placement and a link.

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To attach only naval infantry would drastically limit a Navy's strategical purpose. Look at it from a historical/realistic perspective. Churchill who was Sealord in April 1940, didn't send navy infantry to Norway in order to stop Germany. The Royal Navy had troops from the Army onboard that was sent to Norway. So in order to enable a navy to play a strategic role, sending troops to any coastline should all ground units be able to spawn from a Freighers FMS. But if it would be difficult to "add" other brigades and with the new supply rules around the corner is this mere speculations. Most important is that all ground units in same numbers as an army unit should be available from a Freighters FMS/Beach Head.

Very good point about being stuck when building PPO and movements. I just assumed that it would be possible to switch between positions when you are commanding a ship. It has to be possible to switch to all positions during a PPO building process. A ship that rocks from giving and taking fire shouldn't stop the process. If necessary should it be possible to cast the anchor to secure the build process.

My suggestion still demands a frontline link to be able to attack a CP, or there won't be any AO. So before there is a link between France and Britian can't there be any AO placed on UK. But Freighters can sail out from any deep water port to participate and support any ground attack/defense with an amphibious operation. Remember that the Freighters is sailing very slow and is big juicy targets for all aircrafts. It is rather easy to sink them on their way to the destination.

Today is there a distance limitation from eithter the origin or the target. It is set to ~3000 meter (3 km). If the limit for Naval PPO's is set to indefinite, or at least a very long distance (say 900 km) will that allow you to place a Navy PPO where ever you like, near the water. Links would then be of no relevance for the Navies to participate and assist in the ground war, as it shouldn't be.

On ground is 3000 meter a reasonable distance to your origin or target. For a naval operation isn't it reasonable. Your navy should be allowed to support any ground attack in a coastal area. Same when your navy operates on a river. The Fairmiles should be able to set up FRU's and Supply Points by a river. These naval PPO's is still limited to be set up next to the water.

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4 minutes ago, Sparre said:

To attach only naval infantry would drastically limit a Navy's strategical purpose. Look at it from a historical/realistic perspective. Churchill who was Sealord in April 1940, didn't send navy infantry to Norway in order to stop Germany. The Royal Navy had troops from the Army onboard that was sent to Norway. So in order to enable a navy to play a strategic role, sending troops to any coastline should all ground units be able to spawn from a Freighers FMS. But if it would be difficult to "add" other brigades and with the new supply rules around the corner is this mere speculations. Most important is that all ground units in same numbers as an army unit should be available from a Freighters FMS/Beach Head.

Very good point about being stuck when building PPO and movements. I just assumed that it would be possible to switch between positions when you are commanding a ship. It has to be possible to switch to all positions during a PPO building process. A ship that rocks from giving and taking fire shouldn't stop the process. If necessary should it be possible to cast the anchor to secure the build process.

My suggestion still demands a frontline link to be able to attack a CP, or there won't be any AO. So before there is a link between France and Britian can't there be any AO placed on UK. But Freighters can sail out from any deep water port to participate and support any ground attack/defense with an amphibious operation. Remember that the Freighters is sailing very slow and is big juicy targets for all aircrafts. It is rather easy to sink them on their way to the destination.

Today is there a distance limitation from eithter the origin or the target. It is set to ~3000 meter (3 km). If the limit for Naval PPO's is set to indefinite, or at least a very long distance (say 900 km) will that allow you to place a Navy PPO where ever you like, near the water. Links would then be of no relevance for the Navies to participate and assist in the ground war, as it shouldn't be.

On ground is 3000 meter a reasonable distance to your origin or target. For a naval operation isn't it reasonable. Your navy should be allowed to support any ground attack in a coastal area. Same when your navy operates on a river. The Fairmiles should be able to set up FRU's and Supply Points by a river. These naval PPO's is still limited to be set up next to the water.

I understand what you are saying about using Navy FMS to access the army. The way the game is set up, you cant cross branches. Therefore instead of Navy infantry, you use the marines or equivalent as its own brigade - similar to paratroops stationed at AFs. 

As for using Navy as a long distance force, I can understand the open ocean. I prefer baby steps to allow this for inland waterways. I would hate for FMSs from several naval locations along a river line do a 100km mission to set FMSs accessing a AO especially if they are 5 towns behind the current lines and capable of overstock. I can see this gamed hugely especially if they have been maxed out from a large towns brigade.  For an example lets say we sent Navy FMS to Geel from Antwerp? The navy there would be one of the large Navy brigades, possibly the size of a regular towns infantry. Now max it out by overstock and send them forth. They amount of infantry ESPECIALLY if attached to regular army units would be overwhelming. The large cities would be the new factories for supply and much more important then the RDP factories themselves.

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I been thinking about your comments on the Fairmile Stankyus. Even though the Fairmile was used in some long distance operations was that with a low number of troops. This plus it can create unwanted effects in the game if the Fairmile had the same unlimited range to place a PPO as I believe the Freighter and the Destroyer should have. I therefore alter the suggestion for the Fairmile for at which distances it can place a PPO.

• The maximum distance from the target (that has a link from its origin) where a Fairmile can place an infantry FRU (the PPO we hade before FMS) should be 15 km. Todays maximum distance for Fortified Mobile Spawn is 3 km. It would still give the Fairmile a good flexibility when it placing FRU's.

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I'm all in. Transports, DD's and FM should all be able to place their own unique FMS/FRU.

Since Transporters carry all heavy equipment does it only make sense we can spawn all types of ground equipments from a FMS placed by a Transport.

During D-day operation was it army units that was launched in Normandy, not US Marines or Royal Marines. So it makes perfectly sense if Army units could "attach" to these FMS, or be able to spawn the same type of equipment as from an Army Base (AB).

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This is an awesome idea. It is actually strange that no boat can place spawnable PPOs yet. It it should have come soon after the first FRUs was introduced.

This wont not only be an extra for the navyboys. It will add extra dimension for the whole game. The airgame will have more targets too look for and to hunt down. It will also add an extra dimension for the land game. The off-shore area will with this addition be an open threat. Suddenly can the enemy open up a new flank of attack or defense.

Great suggestion sir!

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Most of what you suggest is good.

Second, and most important… I suggest that a spawn point (FFMS, DFMS and FFRU) as well as a FPS placed by naval vessels isn’t limited by the same distance rules as the ground spawn points.  <<<<THIS one is a bit much.

Having the map as max distance is too much.

10 klicks would be what I would suggest. That is a long drive in the game parameters.

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That argument is understandable when you compare how long distance trucks places their spawnpoints. However, the Navys needs to be able to attack from any deep port to any coastline CP. We still need to have an open link to place an AO and to be able to capture the CP. That rule is still in.

However the range for an amphibious attack shouldn't be limited, or at least not very much.

Remember Germany's invasion of Norway 1940. The Kriegsmarine sailed out from Germany with almost the whole invasion force (minus a few paratroopers) and attacked Norway along most of its coastline. Same with UK's response. UK launched a major operation along Norways northen coastline in order to establish several beachheads and halt the German invasion. The whole expedition force was on board the Royal Navy warships and a few transports.

Also think the Pacific theatre. That was a really long stretched battle theatre where the operations had a very well planned logistic plan. But it was possible to pull it off with the high amount of load the ships can carry very long distancies.

From the games ground game perspective it might seems like a far stretch. But this is one of the strategic purposes and strenghts that these nations navy had during WWII. To be able to launch amphibious attacks at long distances.

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ive never seen the navy do any attacks I wish we could do more attacks with the navy  

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*** 10 klicks would be what I would suggest. That is a long drive in the game parameters.

That is nothing in regards to navy play.  At minimum, I'd go with 60km from target, and that might even be too short w/o looking at map again.

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why not develop landing craft and treat the Freighter at anchor as a FMS! can spawn inf and Higgins boats as long as it isn't sunk. While theyre at it let it spawn LSTs for spawning tanks etc in limited numbers

 

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You have to see it as the establishment of an beachhead. To lift of heavy equipment takes forever and the Transport ship is very vulnerable.

Just to get there in one piece with the Transport should be rewarded.

Laying there for a longer time to unload is like an unicorn, almost a myth. To set up a PPO that takes a few minutes (the truck do it in 3 minutes) will prove to be almost impossible unless you have lots of aircover or you can do it in a very sneaky way (these ships are huge).

All pilots wants to sink you. And when they have find a Transport doen't it take much an effort to sink the poor sod.

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This is the MAJOR Naval addition that will make the Navy game for the first time strategically relevant for the rest of the game. It will give each Navy the strategical ability to open up new front lines. Just as they did in real life. Compare the Pacific theatre 1942-1945, Operation Overlord 1944, Operation Torch 1942, Operation Weserübung 1940, the British and French Expedition forces to Norway in 1940.

With the new Divisions (3 per side) from 1.36 do I see new possibilities to the above suggestion. What if these Divisions could use naval placed spawn points as well, one way or the other (I don't now what is possible/impossible to do with the code).

If it's impossible to have Army Divisions attached to Naval spawn points is another alternative to add 2 Naval Divisions to each side with the same heavy equipment as an Army Division (only 2 on each side is needed at the moment since no US Navy exist yet).

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Not a huge fan of the heavy FMS concept... one freighter spawning an entire armored division? I can see how you could easily game the system with that kind of setup.

Historically you wouldn't be able to land tons of heavy armor and artillery on a beachhead. Even today the Marines aren't able to land very heavy equipment in large numbers on a beachhead.

IMHO we should work to model landing ships, and if we do create a TT FMS, it should be on the "loaded in, spawn out principle" where you say load 4 tanks into the hold, and the can spawn what you loaded. This means you actually put your supply at risk when it's not the ship. And not safely back in base while players send wave after wave of TTs until one finally managed to slip through a proceeds to warp an entire army across the English Channel.

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On 3/20/2019 at 5:03 PM, aismov said:

Not a huge fan of the heavy FMS concept... one freighter spawning an entire armored division? I can see how you could easily game the system with that kind of setup.

Historically you wouldn't be able to land tons of heavy armor and artillery on a beachhead. Even today the Marines aren't able to land very heavy equipment in large numbers on a beachhead.

IMHO we should work to model landing ships, and if we do create a TT FMS, it should be on the "loaded in, spawn out principle" where you say load 4 tanks into the hold, and the can spawn what you loaded. This means you actually put your supply at risk when it's not the ship. And not safely back in base while players send wave after wave of TTs until one finally managed to slip through a proceeds to warp an entire army across the English Channel.

Consider if this was a feature in the game. As soon as one side hears about a Freighter is out sailing I'm pretty sure lots of Air will be scrambled to sink the Freighter. They are big and very slow. These ships top speed was 12-13 knots and then we talking about the really modern ones. Most of the merchants used in convoys couldn't sail faster then 8 to 10 knots. Nothing like the in-game version which top speed is a blitzing 20 knots.*

So it should be rewarded if a Freighter with max speed of 12 knots* is able to place a FFMS. The concept is the same as for any PPO spawn point.

However, the spawn should of course be throttled so we can't spawn as if it was an AB or FB. If CRS likes this concept is it up to them to decide.

Also, don't forget we can to take out any of the PPO spawn points with bombs, shells from Destroyers, or HE charges. Just because a Freighter has been able to place a FFMS doesn't mean it can't be taken down.

* Yes I argues for taking down the Freighter's top speed to a historical speed.

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While I agree that in theory players would spawn in to sink it if it got spotted or reported, but the issue is in the reporting business. You need people to be flying constant air patrols over the Channel (not that I am against this BTW). It because a risk-reward question. If the only think you risk is one TT ship for a potentially huge reward people would simply game the system by spamming TTs out of every port they could and seeing which one happens to slip through. Its not that hard to set up a 2nd account, map your throttle, set a course and simply walk away for 45 mins. The reality of how games are played is that more of this scenario would happen than of actual thoughtfully planned out mission/operations.

It would be the equivalent of moling England... keep on spamming TTs and see if you get lucky because a pilot happened to log off to run to the bathroom and didn't notice your TT slip by. By forcing players to have more skin in the game (the load-on, spawn out principle) you would see less of the above nonsense and more actual operations since players will think twice about draining supply with senseless suicide runs across the channel. I think the idea is a good one, but it just needs more work to eliminate some of the obvious exploits the army-out-of-a-box model has.

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