rodsantos

Marines/Naval Infantry

19 posts in this topic

If you're fighting in an army-held town, you'll be fighting British Army/Armee De Terre/Heer soldiers, wearing the requisite uniforms. 

If you attack an airfield held by para units, you'll be fighting Airborne Infantry/Infanterie de l’Air/Fallschirmjäger troopers, all with a distinctive look which differentiates them from the Army troops. 

But if you fight in a Navy-held town, the naval infantry all resemble regular Army troops, wearing Army uniforms, which is inaccurate. Naval troops should have their own look and feel to them, to distinguish them from Army and Airborne units. 

Why don't we remodel naval infantry, giving them different uniforms from the Army soldiers, and then name Naval Infantry units Royal Marines/Troupes de Marine/Why don't we remodel naval infantry, giving them different uniforms from the Army soldiers, and then name Naval Infantry units Royal Marines/Troupes de Marine/        Seebataillon Kriegsmarine? 

Edited by rodsantos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The German Küstenjäger units (trans. Coastal Rangers) - which was the closest you come to US Marines, or British Commandos - had the same uniform as the Heer. Maybe I'm wrong, but didn't the Marine had more or less the same field uniform as the US Army?

Then was there Kriegsmarine units which was sent to do land duty when their ships was grounded. IIRC had they too the same uniforms as the Heer.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This would be cool, as it would also allow you to identify where the supply is coming from - if they are using their naval units to attack/defend, their army etc. It would also be cool if they had unique weapons common more with the Naval Units, such as the British Landchester, or the American Reising.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have always thought that the way the Navies are deployed that their land forces are less Marines and more Naval shore forces defending their port. As such they would have  a more regular naval uniform with combat gear. Here is what I have found and how I have always thought they should look:

Kriegsmarine

64f07b9f529f96dfd2fb15470f3145be.jpg



Royal Navy (Left image)


30479afe53362972d0ae43e86c828d50.jpg


French Navy (Far Right)

17547b65a4337c9c4fa02f0e2d1c3f84.jpg


United States

post-9787-1274365400.jpg


Yes, there were more combat oriented units: US Marines, Free French Marines, Royal Marines, et al... but I don't usually envision that when I think about our game's Naval forces.

S!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bump. I definitely would S! to this! It seems like the models are already in game. We need that marine feel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No sensible ground forces commander since WWI or earlier wanted his troops to go into battle wearing white or blue. That'd be just dumb in real life, and in-game too. US shore-stationed sailors wearing blue chambray work shirts and blue drill pants were there to do logistics and maintenance work and man AA guns, not to fight enemy infantry in a green-brown environment.

From Wikipedia "Uniforms and Insignia of the Kriegsmarine" (yeah, Wikipedia has to be considered carefully, but I believe this to be correct):

"Kriegsmarine personnel permanently assigned to shore stations, to include coastal artillery, wore a grey green uniform in the same style as the German Army."

This included late war Kriegsmarine garrison infantry battalions that consisted of the enlisted and junior-officer crew of out-of-service or sunken warships.

French WWII fusiliers marins wore ordinary combat infantry uniforms. In combat they wore ordinary helmets. When parading they combined the ordinary combat uniform with a special white sailor cap labeled for their branch.

The British Royal Marines wore ordinary infantry combat uniforms, both in their ordinary units and those men and units that formed elements of the Commandos, Special Boat Service and other combat specialists.

American Marines of the early to mid war period wore mostly older stock of Army uniforms. They also were armed with older Army weapons, i.e. it's well known that the Marines whol initially invaded and then defended on Guadalcanal had to fight with Springfield rifles rather than Garands.

Edited by jwilly
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There could be some debate on which uniforms would be used. In game, there could also be debate about the land forces used by the navy. We have often referred to them as Marines, but in all actuality, the way they are designed in game, these would simply be land garrisons to support and protect the various fleets, rather than dedicated marines. In such cases it is quite possible that both types of uniforms would have been used, as land combat uniforms would not have normally been issued for shipboard use, or even for general shore duty; rather, they would most likely have been issued in advance of planned inkland assaults, or to those assigned specifically to base security. In general, most sailors in the various navies would have worn normal Navy uniforms on duty. If their base were attacked, they would likely simply have grabbed weapons and combat gear and worn it over their normal duty uniforms. That is what I imagine in our game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 14/01/2017 at 10:50 PM, jwilly said:

French WWII fusiliers marins wore ordinary combat infantry uniforms. In combat they wore ordinary helmets.

Several sources point to a dark-blue version of the usual capote and assorted pants. I'm not sure how often this was used though.

14e49lh.jpg

2dt85zl.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In WWI they worn the then army standard blue-grey capote over their navy uniforms though.

sap01_ca000616_p.jpg

sap01_ca000619_p.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One notable fusiliers marins officer (note the cap) during WWII...the son of Charles de Gaulle:

240px-Philippe_de_Gaulle.jpg

Photos of Kieffer Commando, a WWII fusiliers marins  combat unit. These photos are from actions where Kieffer Commando fought...Dieppe, the V2 raid into Holland, D-Day Sword Beach, Walcheren, etc....and obviously they depict the men in mostly British-provided uniform pieces, since the unit fought with the British. Nonetheless I think they are sensibly representative of what such fighting men would have worn into combat if under French command, for the simple reason that a blue uniform during WWII land combat would get you killed:

2015-06-07-08-14-56.jpg?w=900

image_140.jpg

71413773.png

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/26/2017 at 1:49 AM, Quincannon said:

There could be some debate on which uniforms would be used. In game, there could also be debate about the land forces used by the navy. We have often referred to them as Marines, but in all actuality, the way they are designed in game, these would simply be land garrisons to support and protect the various fleets, rather than dedicated marines. In such cases it is quite possible that both types of uniforms would have been used, as land combat uniforms would not have normally been issued for shipboard use, or even for general shore duty; rather, they would most likely have been issued in advance of planned inkland assaults, or to those assigned specifically to base security. In general, most sailors in the various navies would have worn normal Navy uniforms on duty. If their base were attacked, they would likely simply have grabbed weapons and combat gear and worn it over their normal duty uniforms. That is what I imagine in our game.

This is exactly how I vision the navy to be uniformed in game. Naval towns under attack quick response while in their uniforms. The idea of determining navy from army should have been done a long time ago. Italians are nice but navy needs some love even if it's a uniform change for start.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree, would be nice to see KM infantry in sea blue uniforms and LW infantry in medium blue uniforms.  Maybe darken them a tad if need to so they don't stand out as much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be very happy to have my opponent in a blue uniform.

WWII Fusiliers Marins:

Narvik:

ccb1b002753a752f62b98a7243b90d69.jpg

Re-capture of France:

4d15bbee4dfe499a46b27b8e112f9a2d.jpg

Naval officer:

les-fusiliers-marins-de-la-france-libre-

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/26/2017 at 2:49 AM, Quincannon said:

In general, most sailors in the various navies would have worn normal Navy uniforms on duty. If their base were attacked, they would likely simply have grabbed weapons and combat gear and worn it over their normal duty uniforms. 

Except in rare instances, naval personnel with an existing ship were not used as infantry. Naval bases close enough to enemy ground forces to potentially come under direct attack either were defended by armies, or were abandoned by the naval forces, who after all could sail away as long as the crew existed. Fritter away the skilled crew as infantry, though, and you were guaranteed to lose the ships as well.

German naval infantry units toward the end of WWII no longer had ships. They were formed into infantry units because they were available manpower. And, they wore normal infantry combat uniforms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/22/2017 at 11:12 PM, jwilly said:

Except in rare instances, naval personnel with an existing ship were not used as infantry. Naval bases close enough to enemy ground forces to potentially come under direct attack either were defended by armies, or were abandoned by the naval forces, who after all could sail away as long as the crew existed. Fritter away the skilled crew as infantry, though, and you were guaranteed to lose the ships as well.

German naval infantry units toward the end of WWII no longer had ships. They were formed into infantry units because they were available manpower. And, they wore normal infantry combat uniforms.

I am not arguing your point on the German land units of the Navy; and I admit that i have not researched too closely into the British and French, beyonf finding the images that I have shown in this thread, but I KNOW that the United States Navy DID use shipboard Naval personnel as infantry.

Point of fact:

Sailors as Infantry in the US Navy ~ Patrick H. Roth (Captain, US Navy, Ret.)
 

Some quotes:

" On June 7 2005 Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Vern Clark, directed development of a “Navy Expeditionary Sailor Battalion Concept” with the goal of standing up a combat battalion in fiscal year 2007. This is return to the past. Up through the 1970s, competency as naval infantry—sailors performing as infantry, and sometimes providing land based artillery support—has been an integral part of the Navy’s operations.

While this competency has been gone from the fleet for a generation, its return can be facilitated by an examination of a rich history. "

" In 1891, the Bureau of Ordnance issued “Instructions for Infantry and Artillery, United States Navy."

Besides providing instructions for drill and tactics for infantry and artillery, “Instructions” general regulations directed that:

"Each ship and squadron will have a permanently organized landing force composed of infantry and artillery….”
“ The section, consisting of one officer, two petty officers, and sixteen men, is the unit of organization. All sections are drilled both as infantry and artillery."

" The largest operation during the early years of the 20th century involved the occupation of Vera Cruz Mexico in 1914. A seaman brigade of some 2,500 bluejackets conducted the landing and infantry assault alongside a 1,300 man marine brigade. "

" Guidance on amphibious landings continued to be included in Navy Landing Force Manuals until 1938. By then amphibious landing tactical doctrine had been subsumed by publication of the Marine Corps developed “Tentative Landing Operations Manual” of 1935, which was adopted by the Navy in 1938 as “Fleet Publication 167.” Landing party organization continued to be required and infantry drill and tactics continued to be part of the Landing Force Manuals. Bluejacket infantry continue to have a role, albeit much more minor than it had been decades earlier. In China, infantry operations ashore by sailors continued as an integral part of the Asiatic Fleet’s operations along the Yangtze River even though the marines had taken over the bulk of activity. "

During WWII: " ...a Naval Battalion, formed from the remnants of the shore establishment of the 16th Naval District in the Philippines, performed bravely and effectively on Bataan in late 1941 and early 1942. The USS Philadelphia landed a landing party to assist the 47th Infantry in capturing airport at Loa Senia, Morocco, during Operation Torch. Admiral Halsey’s Third Fleet sailors, organized as three battalions of infantry, assisted marines and a British Landing party with the occupation of Yokosuka Naval Base at the end of World War II. "


1454423278706.jpg

USS Houston (CA-30), ship's landing force reembarks from a motor launch, after exercises ashore at Dumanquilas Bay, Mindanao, circa 1931-33
Note that they are not dressed in Marine OD or camo uniforms, but Navy ones.

https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/s/sailors-as-infantry-us-navy.html

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dated early 1930s.

In a more pertinent time period, certainly naval personnel were temporarily onshore at Guadalcanal during the initial landing, and left there when the invasion group abruptly pulled out. From photographs, they were commonly dressed in naval blue fatigues. They did logistics work, and manned some AA guns. They didn't go into the jungle and fight Japanese infantry. If they had, it would have been insane for them to be wearing blue (or white!) instead of green. Some things are obvious.

Here are the mid- to late-war US Navy uniform pieces that were provided to naval units that were intended to operate in the vicinity of ground combat:

http://www.usww2uniforms.com/USN_N3_Utility_Trousers.html

http://www.usww2uniforms.com/USN_N3_Utility_Shirt.html

Other combat gear if needed would be the same as used by Marines, or obtained from the Army if need be.

The N-3 helmet was basically the M-1 Army helmet. Often shore parties would have "USN" stencilled across the front of the helmet in a faintly contrasting lighter green so that the branch of the wearer could be distinguished from a close distance.

 

Edited by jwilly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jwilly said:

Dated early 1930s.

In a more pertinent time period, certainly naval personnel were temporarily onshore at Guadalcanal during the initial landing, and left there when the invasion group abruptly pulled out. From photographs, they were commonly dressed in naval blue fatigues. They did logistics work, and manned some AA guns. They didn't go into the jungle and fight Japanese infantry. If they had, it would have been insane for them to be wearing blue (or white!) instead of green. Some things are obvious.

Here are the mid- to late-war US Navy uniform pieces that were provided to naval units that were intended to operate in the vicinity of ground combat:

http://www.usww2uniforms.com/USN_N3_Utility_Trousers.html

http://www.usww2uniforms.com/USN_N3_Utility_Shirt.html

Other combat gear if needed would be the same as used by Marines, or obtained from the Army if need be.

The N-3 helmet was basically the M-1 Army helmet. Often shore parties would have "USN" stencilled across the front of the helmet in a faintly contrasting lighter green so that the branch of the wearer could be distinguished from a close distance.

 

I am well aware that some naval personnel were issued  OD uniforms under certain circumstances, and that the Navy wore a version of the M-1 helmet. They also often stenciled their OD uniform blouses and jackets with USN as well. The standard US Navy utility jacket was the same OD color as that used by the Army or Marines . However, the fact remains that the USN DID use shipboard personnel for infantry and artillery, when necessary, and it was not guaranteed that they were always issued ODs.

I still believe that if a naval base were attacked, that any naval infantry would have had a good chance of being in the normal naval uniform of the day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd still like to see our sea blue navy KM uniforms.  But, as a compromise, and probably a tilt more towards reality:

What if the navy wore these sea blue uniforms only if it was a defensive mission based out of a deep water port?

All other KM infantry missions would use the standard heer one.

This would simulate the navy in the normal battle gear most of the time, but when a deep water port was under attack, it would represent the hasty defense.

 

Could do same for LW infantry, medium blue uniform only if a defensive mission from an AF, otherwise normal heer uniform.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.