rodsantos

Satchel Placement

15 posts in this topic

Placing HE/HEAT satchels can be hard to place precisely, especially when sapping tanks or blowing a CP.

What I think should be put into the game (and I don't think would be too hard for the programmers) would be an indicator on where you're going to put the satchel. 

I'm thinking it should look like the ones in game that show you where you're going to place a PPO like an FMS or sandbags, (the red/green one,) except shaped like the satchel you're going to place. 

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Silly question why is it hard to place on a cp? It's a big building and no matter where you place them after enough charges the building explodes. 

Now for tanks it's a different story. If the Tank sits on a hill or crooked on a berm then the satchel placement becomes tricky from time to time cause it either will not go where you want it to go or it clips through onto the other side.

There sometimes it just pays to blow both tracks getting the kill credit and making it immobile and not going through the task of trying to blow the tank up . Cause in the end the Heat charge ends up where u don't want it and it has no effect at all. I have been there and done that.

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An even better idea would be to eliminate HEAT satchels. Nothing with their magnetic-attachment function and power existed until 1944, and then only for the Germans. The earliest German hand-placed HEAT device was fielded in 1941. It glue-attached, wouldn't stick to dirty/cold/wet/oily surfaces, and therefore could only be reliably placed on horizontal surfaces such as engine decks. Nothing like them existed at all for anybody in 1940.

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I would love to see HEAT satchels eliminated. They should be used for taking out engines and blowing tracks/wheels only.

Next time you hear someone talk about historical accuracy, remember this fantasy unit:D 

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On 1/19/2017 at 11:00 PM, Pittpete said:

I would love to see HEAT satchels eliminated. They should be used for taking out engines and blowing tracks/wheels only.

Next time you hear someone talk about historical accuracy, remember this fantasy unit:D 

Historically, satchels could not be "stuck" to tracks or wheels either. Heat satchels did exist and were used to combat tanks, though. One version was powerful enough to destroy a medium tank. Unfortunately, in our game, it's not really viable to place satchels on the inside of the tracks. (I tried that early on when I first started playing  and it did bupkiss, as did placing the satchel to the outside front of the track) As far as wheels, I can't see how anyone could attach a satchel to a tire... To be honest, if we wante realism, a satchel should be able to be placed on the inside of a tank's tracks, on the engine deck, or UNDER the tank, where the armor was supposedly thinner, at least on some tanks.

Other than that, satchels in the game are basically just for blowing up structures, and lack the best capabilities they would have there as well. One wonderful tactic to blow a bridge would ave been to rig it to blow (A la Bridge over Ramagen), but we can't do that. we can't  set a bridge to blow with plungers and wait for that tank to start crossing and then BOOM! drop the bridge and tank, and potentially infantry , most of whom should be killed if they are on an exploding bridge.

But our tanks aren't designed to allow the historical use of satchel charges. We can't try to toss a grenade inside an open tank hatch. The AT rifle is designed well which makes it almost useless against later tanks...and of course, we can't make molotovs, which were more effective in anti-tank combat than satchel charges and much more common.

The problem is that if CRS nerfed satchels against tanks completely, and failed to fix placement so that thye tanks could be tracked, then, other than what 2-3 Piats or Bazookas per brigade, or town after 1.36, Infantry would be completely helpless against any and all tanks. Considereing that we commonly filed a LOT more tanks than historically accurate, a few tanks at any battle would effectively just end the game. It would be a game of tank combat, with some infantry around the edges. Unfortunately, the numbers of tanks could not realistically be nerfed that much or we would lose tank players.

Currently, those 'fantasy satchels' are one of the only equalizing limitations infantry have to combat armor. ATGs can do it to a point, but historically they would have been in preset emplacements and we rarely have anough people who know how to set up such organized fortifications, even if our ATG players would use them, so they tend to get eaten by tanks i the open.

 

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7 hours ago, Quincannon said:

Heat satchels did exist and were used to combat tanks, though. One version was powerful enough to destroy a medium tank.

AFAIK, the German HHL device family was the only normally issued HEAT infantry weapon that could be described that way.

Certainly infantry did fight tanks by putting much larger HE charges on engine decks or against tracks/suspensions, or by pouring five gallons of flammable liquid over a tank engine and igniting it, or with track-breaking AT mines. None of those were HEAT, though, and none were used by sprinting lone-wolf soldiers.

The first generation HHL infantry-HEAT device, fielded I think in 1941, attached with a sticky pad that was revealed by pulling off a sheet metal cap. It would not stick to surfaces that were cold, wet, oily or dirty, and the adhesive wasn't strong enough to keep the rather long and heavy device attached to a vertical surface for the time of the ten second fuze, so it was mostly suited for engine decks. Its penetration was not much...comparable to the British #68 HEAT RG, which had much less performance than the game-modeled version.

The HHL3 version, first significant in field use in 1943, had much better performance and magnetic attachment. Per the Rats when the "sapper charge" was developed, it was the conceptual basis for that weapon, even though the historical device was German-only with no Allied equivalents. But it most certainly didn't exist in 1940-41. It only went into manufacturing at the tail end of 1942. 

Edited by jwilly

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.You can lay the explosive on a track or a wheel

Edited by Pittpete

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Tom Hanks said sticky bombs work so if he said it, it must be true..................lol :P

 

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On 1/20/2017 at 3:00 PM, Pittpete said:

I would love to see HEAT satchels eliminated. They should be used for taking out engines and blowing tracks/wheels only.

Next time you hear someone talk about historical accuracy, remember this fantasy unit:D 

If you want to talk about historical accuracy, a lowly little rifleman or SMG should be able to climb on top of your tank, stick his gun through the entry hatch and mow your whole crew down with automatic fire or a dropped hand grenade. So don't complain about HEAT satchels being historically inaccurate until we can do this.

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Whos complaining? 

Tanks could also defend themselves from infantry. 

Heat satchels are unrealistic but i understand the lack of other ways to deal with tanks makes up for this.

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1 hour ago, Pittpete said:

Heat satchels are unrealistic but i understand the lack of other ways to deal with tanks makes up for this.

A good game doesn't result from trying to offset unrealisms and ahistorical combat-interactions with other unrealisms and ahistorical combat-interactions.

Edited by jwilly

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2 hours ago, jwilly said:

A good game doesn't result from trying to offset unrealisms and ahistorical combat-interactions with other unrealisms and ahistorical combat-interactions.

I think that this is probably the best WWII game around and it is made up of tons of unrealisms and ahistoric combat-interactions. Do you want the game to be ONLY historic accurate, and have nothing historically inaccurate? Because it would not even be recognizable if that were done; and that is if it COULD be done in a game.

You could start by there being no such thing as a spawn point anywhere on the map. All resupply would have to be driven or flown by players from the rear of the map.

A time ratio would have to be set, unless each campaign is supposed to last 6 plus years.

Vehicles would require a full crew of players each to function. We would need fuel depots and players to play mechanics and ground crews.

Vehicles would be much more limited. Case in point, the Tigers would be almost nonexistent for Axis players to use, based on their incredibly small historic numbers, and that most used in combet were deployed to the Eastern front.

Squads would nto be by choice... players joining would be assigned to a brigade and would have to fight wiht the folks from their brigade, and players who gained more rank in game would be the ones in charge.

There would be no in game communications besides a local voice chat and radio communications between units.

The list would go on and on and on.......

We want this to be a game... we have to accept  the compromises that allow the game to be played...

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Somewhere in between {every player only getting one game-life, ever, and actually dying when his avatar dies}, and {World of XYZ} is where a realistic-feeling-but-fun-to-play game should be.

We differ on whether a particular entirely-fantasy-in-T0/1/2 weapon is a good idea. 

I'm sure the HEAT satchel isn't going anywhere right now. CRS has other development priorities. It doesn't need to be here, though...a fully realistic, side-specific combination of rifle grenades, fire weapons, HE charges and HEAT weapons could replace it from T0. I hope someday CRS will remodel it into the German-only T3/4 HHL-3, and make it go away otherwise.

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On 1/22/2017 at 9:21 PM, jwilly said:

Somewhere in between {every player only getting one game-life, ever, and actually dying when his avatar dies}, and {World of XYZ} is where a realistic-feeling-but-fun-to-play game should be.

We differ on whether a particular entirely-fantasy-in-T0/1/2 weapon is a good idea. 

I'm sure the HEAT satchel isn't going anywhere right now. CRS has other development priorities. It doesn't need to be here, though...a fully realistic, side-specific combination of rifle grenades, fire weapons, HE charges and HEAT weapons could replace it from T0. I hope someday CRS will remodel it into the German-only T3/4 HHL-3, and make it go away otherwise.

I'd be fine with that if they also changed the Allied version to one that could be stuffed into the tracks of a tank and be powerful enough to actually destroy some lighter tanks. The Allies did have such satchels, and there is no reason to completly remove them from the game and leave the Axis one in.

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