Mosizlak

Flak30 to Flak38

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Any word of getting the Flak30 changed to the Flak38?

They look very similar, they fire the same round but the difference is that flak30 fires at 120 rounds per minute where as the flak38 fires at a rate of 220 rounds per minute. 

It doesn't even require an art rework, just needs a rate of fire increase and you have the flak38. 

It still wouldn't be on par with the cmle38 but it would close the considerable ga[ in performance. 

 

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They actually look fairly different, but it'd still be a reasonable change for now. The game contains a bunch of less-good stand-ins. This would a minor one by comparison.

Realistically more effective AA is a necessary step if the game is going to introduce realistically more effective mid-war-and-beyond air to ground ordnance.

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From wiki "The Flak 38 was accepted as the standard Army gun in 1939"; so yes, the flak 38 should be in game, no question.

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IMHO if/when (tm) the RATs add new AC or FB into the game the addition of a Flak38 should be paramount even if they just increase the ROF of the flak30 and call it a flak38 until modeling work can be allocated along with a new TRIAD of upgraded AA systems like SPAA in the tri and quad mount variations. The flak30 is not bad and it has AP rounds but its not a mle38.  I think if the recoil could be eliminated it would be a better AA gun but like all weapon systems there is no reason why we should add the flak38 for balance purposes - like the lack of allied 88s style weapons.... The ONLY reasons that would be logical would be to keep up with the advancement in air capacity or a simply just adding new content.  If your looking at adding it for a balance off of the mle38 its a downward spiral from there into balance oblivion hell.  So in that respect, there is zero reason to upgrade it for the earlier tiers logically unless some sweet allied loving happens in the process.

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You might look on this as a why to "balance" the game. You can also look on it as in what is the most historical representation. First, the production of Flak 30 was halted in 1940 and replaced with Flak 38. If my sources is correct was some 7.000 Flak 30 built till then.

Second, Flak 38 with single barrel model was built in over 40.000 numbers. Flak 38 Vierling (quad-mount) was built in almost 3.800 which equals ca 15.000 more barrels with Flak 38. A total of ca 45.000 Flak 38 guns compared to the less effeciant Flak 30's 7.000.

Then can you also look at if from the plans CRS had when the game was launched in 2001. The plan was to introduce more or less every weapon that was relevant and saw action. So the Flak 38 was on the list to replace quickly the Flak 30 in tier 1. This plan is still there but the development has slowed down dramitically.

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On 1/26/2017 at 10:34 AM, Sparre said:

This plan is still there but the development has slowed down dramitically.

C'mon, it's barely been ten years!  Changing a single line of code takes a while, man!

whats-it-like-to-be-an-internet-famous-s

Also, buy more hero accounts.  Because reasons.

 

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With all this new SPAA talk, I got to thinking about how come we don't have the Flak 38 in game yet?

 

Also, I found in wiki this statement "The gun fired the "Long Solothurn", a 20 × 138 mm belted cartridge that had been developed for the ST-5 and was one of the most powerful 20 mm rounds in existence."  Does our Flak 30 have this good round, or a gimped version? (kinda like our 88 using old 1939 ammo...)  Sure hope the upcoming audit reviews our Flak 30.

 

Also, we need the Flak 38 for a nice set of SPAA on trucks and HTs.  FPA could use the Flak 30 versions maybe, others Flak 30 or Flak 38.

 

Since we have the trucks and guns (mostly) getting the single gun truck SPAA might not be too hard??  Then, it would just be a matter of creating the Sd Kfz 10 so we could form the 10/4 and 10/5 versions.

 

I'd rather not see some other 20mm (say FMB) on a truck or Sd Kfz 10 down the road, but rather the Flak 30 and Flak 38.

 

Finally, since the Flak 38 was accepted as the standard army gun in 1939, we kinda need it to supplement the Flak 30.

 

Edited by delems

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Give them both a cyclic rate of 220 - 260 and be done with it.  Different but equal. 

They had similar muzzle velocity of about 900 m/s.

BUT...  the Flak 38 had an effective range of 2200 m and the Hotchkiss  3 times that effective range at  6800 m. (Not that anyone could hit a moving target at that distance) But it's a hell of a sniper rifle. :-)

Edited by lipton

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The Flak 38 needs to be introduced sooner, not later.  The Flak 30 came in 1934 and was replaced by the Heer in 1939 with the Flak 38.

 

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Yatta! CRS made it with 1.35.16. Awesome work lads. Thanks!

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What do you suggest the allies get in response to the Flak 38??

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The Pom-Pom aka Quick Firing 2 pdr AA gun was the Britons equivalent at that time (1940). That would be a very cool addition that's is also an iconic british AA-gun. Especially for the navy game since the Royal Navy had both twin and quad mounts of Pom-Pom guns.

HMAS_Nizam_AWM-009496.jpg

 

4166140.JPG

Edited by Sparre

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5 hours ago, imded said:

What do you suggest the allies get in response to the Flak 38??

The Allies have adequate light AA platforms. Every last bit of kit cannot sometimes be directly matched and so it is in this case. That's what makes the game interesting - variety of equipment, variety of challenge. 

Flak 38, mainly the ROF, is both a blessing and a curse. You get to hose, but the clip is short, and magazines run out faster than with the flak 30. 

The Axis will have a light/combo AAA advantage for most of the timeline. They have plenty of deadly combinations coming that won't have a match until the quad 50 gets in, several tiers later. That's how it goes in that department. In other departments the Allies have an advantage (air), in others the advantage shifts wildly and depending on battlefield role (tank). All taken together, it balances out.

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*** Yup the allies get the bottom of the barrel.

Hardly, Flak 38 was accepted into service in 1939, before our game even starts battling.

Axis got the short end for the last 17 years waiting for the correct weapon - learn your history. (though Flak 30 was used too, so having both correct)

Great job getting it in and evening it out a bit.

Edited by delems

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On 3/21/2019 at 7:37 PM, Sparre said:

The Pom-Pom aka Quick Firing 2 pdr AA gun was the Britons equivalent at that time (1940). That would be a very cool addition that's is also an iconic british AA-gun. Especially for the navy game since the Royal Navy had both twin and quad mounts of Pom-Pom guns.

HMAS_Nizam_AWM-009496.jpg

 

4166140.JPG

Two responses:

1. The British and French equivalent to the FlaK 38 2.0cm was the Oerlikon 20mm, not the two pounder pom-pom.

The British had Oerlikons mounted on various destroyer models and other ships; Fairmile Bs and similar-sized boats; trucks...singles in 1940, and doubles, triples and quads in later years; and in late 1942, AA tanks.

20mm%20Oerlikon%20on%20Bedford%20OYD_zps

imm011_12_zpsti95eaoj.jpg

mlu7_zps45dcd3c7.jpg

2. If the two pounder pom-pom were to be modeled, more use would result from modeling the single cranked gun than one of the power quads. The power quads were big and heavy even for 1940 destroyers, though some did carry one. The cranked singles were small enough to be standard armament fore and aft on 1940 Fairmile B gunboat versions, and aft armament on the late 1940 Free French "Normandie" class gunboats.

40mm-39mkviii-8-1.jpg

AFAIK, no two pounder pom-poms were used by anyone in European land fighting. Vickers did export their Type 76, a two pounder single mounted to a lightly armored "carrier" version of the Vickers light tank, but I don't think the British Army used any. There's a photo of a unit manned by two men in naval uniforms, but I don't think they're British, or if they are it might have been a Vickers marketing photo.

 

GB-VickersArmstrong40mmAA-IonFonosc.jpg

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The US will eventually get the M13 (M3 HT with twin .50 in a Maxon powered turret), the M16 (quad 50 aka "Krautchopper") and the M55 (towed krautchopper). The Brits can look forward to the Vickers Light Tank AA mk II (twin 15mm Besa) and the Crusader AA Mk II (dual Oerlikon), although all of these are waaay beyond the horizon yet.

The German list is rather more plentiful and deadly, including the famous Wirbelwind, Ostwind, Möbelwagen, Flakpanzer 38(t) and Sdkfz 7/1 (tier 0 20mm flakvierling), as well as the towed versions. These too are rather distant in the making.

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There was discussion a month or two ago about a French truck with a single Oerlikon as part of a T0 single-20mm SPAA set, alongside a Bedford with a pintle Oerlikon and an Opel with a FlaK 38. Are those on the "eventual" list?

A number of years ago, old-CRS greenlit (in the eventual-modeling-list sense) a Laffly S25TL (or maybe S30TL?) with the naval Hotchkiss CAMle 40J dual 25mm, as the French weapon for the high end of the T0 SPAA sets. Pachy did plan and elevation drawings as part of that discussion. Is that on your "eventual" list?

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7 hours ago, BMBM said:

The US will eventually get the M13 (M3 HT with twin .50 in a Maxon powered turret), the M16 (quad 50 aka "Krautchopper") and the M55 (towed krautchopper). The Brits can look forward to the Vickers Light Tank AA mk II (twin 15mm Besa) and the Crusader AA Mk II (dual Oerlikon), although all of these are waaay beyond the horizon yet.

The German list is rather more plentiful and deadly, including the famous Wirbelwind, Ostwind, Möbelwagen, Flakpanzer 38(t) and Sdkfz 7/1 (tier 0 20mm flakvierling), as well as the towed versions. These too are rather distant in the making.

Any new aircraft ordnance on the horizon? It would be cool.

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