fafner

spaa

37 posts in this topic

just curious but WHY is the new allied spaa going to be mounted on an armoured TANK chassis while the axis spaa is gonna get stuck ona TRUCK? WHY didn't they put it ona LAFFY or a Morris?? makes me question the veracity of the claim of 'no bias here'.

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Because UK gets a Tier 3 SPAA, and Germany gets a Tier 1 SPAA and French and US gets no SPAA. Not sure that is an balanced set up, but that what it looks like.

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Because less modeling work was required to mount the gun to an existing tank chassis (i.e. cover over the turret compartment with a flat "plate") than to build a new complex truck model (a stripped Canadian Pattern Ford or Chevrolet 4x4) as was used historically earlier in the war.

All side will get SPAA in the same tier. Per Hatch, mid-war for now, early war once another round of SPAA is ready.

Edited by jwilly

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3 hours ago, fafner said:

just curious but WHY is the new allied spaa going to be mounted on an armoured TANK chassis while the axis spaa is gonna get stuck ona TRUCK? WHY didn't they put it ona LAFFY or a Morris?? makes me question the veracity of the claim of 'no bias here'.

Obviously it's based on available resources, required timeline to introduction, and a desire to stick to historical basis for development.

 

There was a Crusader chassis with Bofors. There was a SdKfz 7 with medium caliber AA gun, though it was the FlaK 36 37mm, not the FlaK 28 40mm. There was not a Morris or Laffly with a Bofors. As noted, the British truck mount Bofors was on a very different type of truck that would require all new modeling. So would the US and French versions of the truck mounted Bofors.

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Actually, Germany had a good number of SdKfz with Flak 36 3.7 cm (will be the Bofors verion in the game) when they invaded Poland in 1939. So for Germany is the suggested SPAA one of several SPAA that is historical tier 0.

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28 minutes ago, jwilly said:

Because less modeling work was required to mount the gun to an existing tank chassis (i.e. cover over the turret compartment with a flat "plate") than to build a new complex truck model (a stripped Canadian Pattern Ford or Chevrolet 4x4) as was used historically earlier in the war.

All side will get SPAA in the same tier. Per Hatch, mid-war for now, early war once another round of SPAA is ready.

this is the most absurd excuse ever, and if true it means that the devs are making bad game decisions over irrelevant nonsense

delete some polygons, make a flatbed truck and then put a bofors on the flatbed and worry about the 100% historically accurate mount later

giving one side a shielded gun and the other side an exposed gun makes it seem like they're going out of their way to introduce imbalance and drama

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14 minutes ago, david01 said:

this is the most absurd excuse ever, and if true it means that the devs are making bad game decisions over irrelevant nonsense

delete some polygons, make a flatbed truck and then put a bofors on the flatbed and worry about the 100% historically accurate mount later

giving one side a shielded gun and the other side an exposed gun makes it seem like they're going out of their way to introduce imbalance and drama

To do this requires an additional 3D modeler. They can't afford one right now.

 

The A13 is going to have the same crew exposed except for the driver who is in the tank.

 

Considering that this is the best they can do with the current resources available, it makes sense.

 

 

Y U No get that?

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I guess we need to work on communication a little better as some folks choose to always assume the worst... Both versions will have minimal shielding. You can expect more shielded rides as later tier productions at some point in the future.

This is more representative of we are looking at as far as MAXIMUM shielding for both sides with this initial effort... (This being the British Crusader III MkI AA that will be shared by all allied forces)
DSCN4422.JPG

So even if the mode of locomotion is armored, you take out the gunners on this or the Sdkfz7, you still end the effectiveness of that unit and get the kill.

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I thought we were over this god awful not historical and unbalance vehicles.

This german SPAA will be useless.. There is always at least one EI rifle around you everytime, just another 88 that can't kill tanks.

 

The SPAA's in this game must be:

- US M16 SPAA (API) - 4xM16B2 15mm Can penetrate low tier tanks and IVG rear, Fastest Rate of Fire, Fastest Vehicle on Road, Open Top capable of being killed by EI flanking on their 6 or strafing from planes.

- German Wirbelwind(Only HE Rounds) - Can't penetrate tanks but is good at shooting EA, has open top making still vulnerable to infantry especially inside towns and capable of being strafed and gunner killed.

- AC MKII AA(Only HE Rounds) - 2x 20mm AA Guns Can't kill tanks but it's safe from infantry light weapons, second highest speed on road, smallest profile.

 

As for stuka I pretty sure it will be a novelty like the atr ATR, What pilots want is STuka D3 or D5, D3 can carry 3x 500kg bombs but has two 7.62mm Guns, the D5 carries 2x 20mm cannons.

Edited by pbveteran

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Please Hatch dont worry about what F2P moochers have to say....Most of them are filled with vitrol

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13 minutes ago, Pittpete said:

Please Hatch dont worry about what F2P moochers have to say....Most of them are filled with vitrol

Those are the vets that quit because CRS HATES THEIR SIDE!!! Now they HATE the game and bash it anytime they can...

 

...but still play using the free accounts lol.

 

Mental illness. 

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2 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

...but still play using the free accounts lol.

 

Mental illness. 

:lol:

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Absolutely right Mosizlak, Pittpete!!  S!  HATCH, keep doing the good work!  You always were and still are ....... THE MAN!!  :lol:S!

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39 minutes ago, pbveteran said:

This german SPAA will be useless.. There is always at least one EI rifle around you everytime, just another 88 that can't kill tanks.

It will be no more "useless" than what the allies have...

And THAT is why running around lone-wolf is not recommended in this game. It's about TEAM play. You should either be in AI range or have other inf watching your ass while you are protecting them from bombs falling on their heads.

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5 minutes ago, HATCH said:

It will be no more "useless" than what the allies have...

And THAT is why running around lone-wolf is not recommended in this game. It's about TEAM play. You should either be in AI range or have other inf watching your [censored] while you are protecting them from bombs falling on their heads.

This!!S!

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19 minutes ago, HATCH said:

It will be no more "useless" than what the allies have...

And THAT is why running around lone-wolf is not recommended in this game. It's about TEAM play. You should either be in AI range or have other inf watching your [censored] while you are protecting them from bombs falling on their heads.

You can't exit vehicles...? There is nothing to do with lone-wolf even with a team and near friendly infantry you will be sniped by a lone rifleman in bush at 300m.. If you have your commander unbutton on a tank even if you coordinated in TS he has a 90% chance to died if you kept him unbutton.

Already with dozens of Bofors at an AB, planes can still  avoid them while making a fast burst of fire... 

What will Allies SPAAs have I'm not awared of any similar SPAAs on the allied side?

Edited by pbveteran

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1 hour ago, pbveteran said:

What will Allies SPAAs have I'm not awared of any similar SPAAs on the allied side?

/\ /\ /\

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20 hours ago, pbveteran said:
Quote

I thought we were over this god awful not historical and unbalance vehicles.

Both base-vehicles are historical; to be introduced in the same tier and with exactly the same weapon, so--assuming equal spawnlist numbers, which I expect will be the case--they seem to be perfectly balanced.

Quote

This german SPAA will be useless.. There is always at least one EI rifle around you everytime

The Crusader AA will have exactly the same guncrew exposure to horiontal infantry fire or aircraft strafing (i.e. total) as the SdKfz 7. SPAA doesn't belong near enemy infantry unprotected. This unit will be all about team gameplay, for both sides. 

Quote

US M16 SPAA (API) - 4xM16B2 15mm Can penetrate low tier tanks and IVG rear, Fastest Rate of Fire, Fastest Vehicle on Road, Open Top capable of being killed by EI flanking on their 6 or strafing from planes.

12.7mm, not 15mm. Also not the fastest SPAA...that would be the British CMP truck mounted rigs, either triple Oerlikon, quad Oerlikon or single Bofors. But, the classic choice for the Americans, once the underlying halftrack is able to be modeled. It'd be nice for it to be paired with the GMC-truck-mounted Bofors, which probably would be the second fastest vehicle.

Quote

- German Wirbelwind(Only HE Rounds) - Can't penetrate tanks but is good at shooting EA, has open top making still vulnerable to infantry especially inside towns and capable of being strafed and gunner killed.

Wirbelwind was an awful design. All the disadvantages of the FlaK 38 (not thermally stable beyond a 20 round burst, so could not be belt fed or large-capacity-drum fed), plus it barely had room for one loader per side because the armor enclosure was designed too small. It took two loaders per side to maintain continuous 2x firing. So, the sustained RoF was awful compared to Allied truck mounted triple- and quad-20mm systems or the earlier and more common German halftrack open-mount FlaK Vierling. The ability to operate slightly closer to enemy infantry wasn't much of an offset to being a terrible AA system. Plus, Wirbelwind was first fielded in late 1944. Certainly it would be wildly inappropriate for early tiers.

Quote

- AC MKII AA(Only HE Rounds) - 2x 20mm AA Guns Can't kill tanks but it's safe from infantry light weapons, second highest speed on road, smallest profile.

CRS used to have as a design principle that heavy weapons chosen for the game will have weaknesses comparable to their strengths, and that whenever possible a weapon that is strong against infantry will have a weakness that infantry can counterattack against. I think probably that design approach still is used. There are no weapons that are good at killing and cannot be killed themselves. So SPAA, which would be all-powerful against infantry if armor-protected against bullets and fragments, instead will be of types that are fully exposed to bullets and fragments.

Given that, my guess is that instead of Wirbelwind for T4, CRS will model an SdKfz 7 with an unarmored FlaK Vierling...which is a T0 eligible system...and instead of an armored car with 2x 20mm, they'll model an unarmored truck (maybe a new CMP model, maybe the existing Bedford OY or Morris) with a triple or quad 20mm. 

 

Edited by jwilly

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CRS already said as of now these vehicle are stand ins,  and they all will get the Historical remodel once they can do so. 

Instead of being upset about it you should be happy that things are moving forward and that they are trying . 

Just my 2 cents.

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On 2/4/2017 at 9:07 PM, HATCH said:

/\ /\ /\

The most used SPAA on the UK side were Armored Cars or Tank AA mounted not trucks..

@jwilly

If you know CRS track history you might be stuck with that SPAA for 8 years.. On warthunder both the 3.7cm truck and the Wirbelwind are implement, the truck is vastly inferior against planes especially those giving ground support.. the recoil from the gun and the low fire rate make it near useless while the x4 20mm  put more shells faster in a smaller area, that a single 37mm/Bofors, there is reason modern SPAA and AA follow that principle of high rate of fire and more shells rather than a bigger shell, the same goes with the M16 SPAA is better than the M15 wich has a 37mm AA with 2 50.calls, the 4x 50cals are simply more effective.

So those 3 vehicles I mention would be pretty good at SPAA and would have better protection from infantry which would make them more specialized at taking EA and more effective vehicles.

 

Fasted Rate of Fire of those 3 mention.. This is my opinion I would rather have those 3 vehicles that were more widely used, are more effective on this game enviroment and are more iconic.. I think they are a better bang for the buck even if they took more time to implement.

 

For me it's still surprising that after all the community funding, the players have still 0 say on decisions or even equipment settings.. 

Edited by pbveteran

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PBV, be happy that CRS can get ANYTHING into the game at the moment. They are working on improving the game. And the axis and allied SPAA have the identical gun. Not sure why the whining. And they will get to the other vehicles.

 

Why not subscribe? You seem to spend enough time here.

 

Also, the CRS of today is completely different than the CRS of 3-4 years ago.

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On 2/4/2017 at 1:57 PM, pbveteran said:

As for stuka I pretty sure it will be a novelty like the atr ATR, What pilots want is STuka D3 or D5, D3 can carry 3x 500kg bombs but has two 7.62mm Guns, the D5 carries 2x 20mm cannons.

 

I'm a stuka pilot and the version we are getting is the version I've been hoping for.

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5 hours ago, pbveteran said:

The most used SPAA on the UK side were Armored Cars or Tank AA mounted not trucks..

I'm not sure what you mean by "most used". Historically, by far the most common British SPAA platforms were trucks. Armored cars were uncommon, light tanks were prototypes or experimental only, and medium tank mounts were late war when there was very little German air-attack threat so hardly any need for SPAA. Truck mounts were common in North Africa and onward into Europe.

Quote

On warthunder both the 3.7cm truck and the Wirbelwind are implement, the truck is vastly inferior against planes especially those giving ground support.. the recoil from the gun and the low fire rate make it near useless while the x4 20mm  put more shells faster in a smaller area, that a single 37mm/Bofors,

I don't know that Warthunder is a very impressive reference source. I doubt very much if their physics for gun recoil are even as good as CRS's. And, do they model Wirbelwind as a continuous fire 4x 20mm? 

As a matter of technical fact, Wirbelwind (which was built around FlaK Vierling, the 4x 20mm FlaK 38 mount) was effectively 2x 20mm for continuous fire, because it took ~ as long for four loaders to reload two guns as it took for the other two guns to fire their 20 round magazines. Because of that normal firing mode, the gun was equipped with two triggers, each of which fired a diagonally opposite pair of guns. Firing all four guns at once (i.e. both triggers) resulted in about a 35% duty cycle because it required the loaders on each side to reload both guns on their respective sides.

Throw weight is a reasonable first-pass metric for AA lethality. The FlaK 38 version of FlaK Vierling fired 2x 220rpm of 120 gram rounds on a continuous fire basis (not considering eventual gun overheating), for a throw weight of  about 52,800 grams/minute. The FlaK 43 version of the FlaK 36 37mm family had a cyclic rate of 250 rpm, and nearly that could be achieved for a short while (until the gun overheated) with two loaders. As such, it fired 1x 240rpm of 650 gram rounds, or about 156,000 grams/minute.

On average it took one 37mm hit to bring down a single engine WWII aircraft, or two to three 20mm hits. A FlaK 43 put slightly more than half as many shells in the air, and each shell was roughly 5.5 times as lethal as those of a FlaK 38. If the goal of AA was to get a single hit so as to intimidate inbound Allied pilots during attack runs, and if the attackers assuredly would be at very low altitude, it's a reasonable argument that FlaK Vierling was the preferred weapon. If however the goal of the AA fire was to achieve kills, or the attackers might be bombing from middle altitude, then the 37mm solution was greatly preferred because of its substantially greater lethality.

Edited by jwilly

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5 hours ago, pbveteran said:

For me it's still surprising that after all the community funding, the players have still 0 say on decisions or even equipment settings.. 

I don't see the basis for this. It appears to me that CRS pays a very great amount of attention to what their customers prefer.

Of course, they have to coordinate what customers want with what's historically workable, and with what's practically developable, and with what makes a good, relatively balanced game. There'd be no margin in developing something that broke the game's marketability in one of those three respects. And, they have a bunch of customers. If the bulk of customers want X, but you or I want Y, then it's understandable that Y is less likely to be their choice...especially if Y is less historically common, or would make the game less balanced, or would require unavailable development resources.

Edited by jwilly
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On 2/4/2017 at 0:58 PM, pbveteran said:

There is nothing to do with lone-wolf even with a team and near friendly infantry you will be sniped by a lone rifleman in bush at 300m.. If you have your commander unbutton on a tank even if you coordinated in TS he has a 90% chance to died if you kept him unbutton.

 

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