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      Soldiers!

      We are seeking Squad Leaders to volunteer their squads to help us test the upcoming Squad Forums system. This system will integrate squads who wish to participate into a self-sustained "forum within a forum." You will be able to add members to your squad, assign permissions, and create forums/calendar events on your own. The idea behind this system is part of our commitment to support squads as a integral part of our community. This service will be offered free of charge to all squads of World War II Online upon launch. Our goal is to offer all of the services a squad off-site forum can offer but free of charge and tied in to our existing forum service. So what do you need tested? We need willing volunteers to test the whole system - make forums, post threads, assign permissions, etc. The idea is to have several squads giving it a test run to point out any flaws before we launch it publicly. What are the requirements? We are ideally looking for medium to large squads - Ideally ten people or so plus, but smaller squads feel free to apply - and a willingness to use our platform. It's important to note (as of now - these may be included at a later date) we are unable to convert posts from a private forum if your squad previously used one, and you (or your XO's and recruiters) will need to assign individual members permissions. It is entirely possible that in the future this system will be automatically linked to the game's squad roster, but as of now developer priorities are elsewhere (1.37 and steam, w00t!) How do I sign up? PM me ( @Dodger ) on the forums, or email me at dodger@playnet.com - Please indicate your squad name and how many members you have. I will get back to you with more instructions.

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      Recruiting drive.   04/16/2017

      With the anticipated influx of new players on the heels of this summer's Steam release, there is a reasonable expectation that forum traffic will increase. I'm looking for volunteers, not just to moderate, but to help answer new players' questions or direct them toward the correct answers. The forums may be a player's first contact with the game and we want to ensure that it is a positive experience. A happy player is a player who sticks around and the more new players we can retain, the more resources we will have for development.
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holmium

Tier 0 AA comparrison

54 posts in this topic

Lets have a look between the Flak 30 and the CA mle 25mm AA gun. These both can be spawned from a FMS/Depot and both available from Tier 0 -> Tier 3 in good numbers. They're both available in the same numbers comparatively, so CRS must consider them the same value.

Lets compare certain areas that are of value between the two.

Deployment time (from the time you press Z to the time you get a sight picture).

Flak 30, between 5-6 seconds. 25mm, 2 seconds. A clear winner here. CA mle 25mm aa. If you're trying to setup outside your depot/FMS with EA camping, it's much easier to setup and start shooting accurately.

Recoil

Flak 30, noticeable recoil. The sight obviously jumps up after the initial burst. If you were aiming at something, you'd need to push down on the stick/mouse to counter the recoil. 25mm, basically none. I was able to aim at a target in the distance and there was very little difference (very slight recoil). The gun jumps a little but the sight remains on target. Winner hear is, CA mle 25mm AA.

Push speed

Flak 30 and CA mle 25mm AA both have a comparative push speed on the ground. Draw.

Reload time

Flak 30 and CA mle 25mm AA both take around 4 seconds to reload. Draw.

Muzzle Speed

Flak 30 is 780 m/s. 25mm is 900 m/s. Again the CA mle 25mm AA is a clear winner. Faster round speed = less leading the target, more likely to hit something.

Projectile weight aka moar damage

Flak 30 is 120grams. 25mm is 240 grams. Twice the size. CA mle is the winner here. Bigger rounds do more damage. When you hit, they will/do feel it.

Magazine size

Flak 30 is 20 rounds per magazine. 25mm is 15. Flak30 has the advantage here.

Sight picture/Zoom

Flak 30 has 1 zoom level  with a "cross" sight. 25mm has 2 zoom levels with a V sight. The flak 30 feels restrictive when dealing with aircraft flying overhead, as the zoom is too strong for close distance and it's hard to look directly above using the sight. The 25mm sight feels quite comfortable. The V is more accurate with longer distances, especially for sniping 88s on a hill. The 2 zoom levels are much better. The first is great for seeing more of the environment and better SA to follow the fast moving/close aircraft, the 2nd level zoom is higher than the Flak 30s and is much better for sniping and EA that's further away. The winner here is the CA mle 25mm AA.

 

I couldn't find rate of fire info for these guns as I had different info from different locations. I had a feeling the flak 30 had a slightly faster RoF but I'm not sure if that makes it a winner, as that probably contributes to it's recoil issue.

 

Overall, the clear winner by a large margin is the CA mle 25mm AA gun. It's an excellent gun that is fast to deploy, with little recoil, faster muzzle velocity and bigger rounds. It has a better sight picture with much better zoom levels for better SA/faster mover tracking. The smaller magazine size is it's only real limiting factor here but considering the RoF is still fast and the reload time is only 4 seconds, it's an effective AA gun that has appears to have no issues shooting down axis aircraft.

 

What other factors should be added to this list? Do you agree/disagree with my conclusion? What can be done to balance this?

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Watch Moes latest video or any other and see how  the 25mm quickly  kills whatever it is shooting at. 

 

Need to switch out  the Flak 30 for the the 2cm Flak 38.  

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this poor dead horse done been kicked enough - no? thanks for this post and all but this data has been hashed/rehashed/and then corned and hashed. 

 

flak30 was the wrong choice, but it was made over a decade ago by a team that ... well i guess Hatch was there and maybe Bloo but this was before Xoom joined I think and none of them had the title 'lead of this whole [censored]'. flak38 is the correct choice for this class of weapon for the germans.

 

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they'll say the flak38 will devastate the infantry and nobody will spawn allied inf after it's introduced...

whenever they talk about aaa they make really weird statements about multi barreled guns and gun shields :confused:

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Mmmmm sexy.  

Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-J08339,_Ausbildung

Flak38 would be awesome to see in game!!!

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The photo of course is a FlaK Vierling...4x FlaK 38. 

I doubt if modeling the FlaK 38 would be tops on CRS's list, but I don't know of any reason why they can't re-parameterize the FlaK 30 to make it operate as a 38.

Quote

What can be done to balance this?

As to "balance": CRS has told us over and over for the past sixteen plus years that this game is not balanced weapon to weapon. Game balance is one side overall vs. the other side overall. It's total statistical lethality vs. total statistical lethality.

The two guns are historical. They are what they are. Maybe the FlaK 30 model isn't very good...the jumpiness is entirely a modeling problem, not a simulation of anything real. But the two guns weren't equal to each other in real life. They shouldn't be equal in-game either.

Any improvement of one side's lethality because they want a better replacement for something that's not as good as the other side's comparable item, has to be offset by an equal improvement to the other side's lethality. That's fundamentally how an overall-balance, realistic-weapons game works.

 

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1 hour ago, jwilly said:

The photo of course is a FlaK Vierling...4x FlaK 38. 

I doubt if modeling the FlaK 38 would be tops on CRS's list, but I don't know of any reason why they can't re-parameterize the FlaK 30 to make it operate as a 38.

As to "balance": CRS has told us over and over for the past sixteen plus years that this game is not balanced weapon to weapon. Game balance is one side overall vs. the other side overall. It's total statistical lethality vs. total statistical lethality.

The two guns are historical. They are what they are. Maybe the FlaK 30 model isn't very good...the jumpiness is entirely a modeling problem, not a simulation of anything real. But the two guns weren't equal to each other in real life. They shouldn't be equal in-game either.

Any improvement of one side's lethality because they want a better replacement for something that's not as good as the other side's comparable item, has to be offset by an equal improvement to the other side's lethality. That's fundamentally how an overall-balance, realistic-weapons game works.

 

I appreciate that the game isn't red vs blue but there is a balancing factor to consider here. The allies have faster bombers which are more durable that seem to absorb 40mm hits, let alone countless 20mm hits. Or when a hurri 2 is camping your FMS, there's little that can be done before it takes it down. The flak30 is not a deterrent and for good reason. If a 110/Stuka/HE-111 was attacking a FMS, all it would take was a CA mle AA to spawn after the 110/Stuka/He-111 makes it's pass, deploys in 2 seconds and would be firing on the axis plane before it even starts lining up the FMS, doing effective hits.

Maybe the flak 30 would be more effective if they can shoot the wing off a spit in 1 hit like the CA mle 25mm does to 109s. The air war favours the allies. The spit/hurri/h75 are turn and burn fighters and they are often down low, harassing ground forces. 109/110s if flown right are up at 3k or above making occasional passes on an allied fighter. If LW come down low to harass the allied ground forces, they'll get torn to shreds when the RAF/FAF turn up. The entry level AA gun is effective and dangerous. Having a more effective AA gun that can be spawned from FMS/Depots would help alot.

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there is nothing incorrect about flying 109s down low, even slow given the right situation. 

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Quote

I appreciate that the game isn't red vs blue but there is a balancing factor to consider here. 

Comments like this aren't consistent with the game's design concept: both sides are entirely unequal in every way that history provides, but they are very nearly statistically equal overall per CRS data mining of all the gameplay.

So every expression of "the game needs to be more balanced" misses the point that the game is intentionally unbalanced everywhere, with each side having some areas where it is superior and others where it is inferior.

A request that an area where your preferred side is inferior should be beefed up because it's "unbalanced" indicates either a failure to understand, or a willingness to break the game's overall-balance concept.

Neither side can have all of its weaker areas made equal to the enemy, while that side's stronger areas remain stronger. 

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people have a hard time with equal and equivalent. one of those two words can produce an outcome that is in fact the other word ... but the other word may not in fact be the case between two of the other words ;-).

 

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it's useless vs useful.

 

the flak30 even has trouble with para planes.

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5 hours ago, madrebel said:

this poor dead horse done been kicked enough - no? thanks for this post and all but this data has been hashed/rehashed/and then corned and hashed. 

 

flak30 was the wrong choice, but it was made over a decade ago by a team that ... well i guess Hatch was there and maybe Bloo but this was before Xoom joined I think and none of them had the title 'lead of this whole [censored]'. flak38 is the correct choice for this class of weapon for the germans.

 

It's not a dead horse, it would be easy to change the flak 30 to the flak 38 but for some reason they're not doing it. They put in the FMS, unless they're blind they should have seen that the importance of light AA and ATGs has increased a lot.

 

Either it's because they don't see a problem or it's because they're fans of Jwilly's pretentious babble about overall balance.

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Flak 30 vrs mle38

2pdr vrs 88

bren vrs mg34

plz just stop with the whoa is me. 

Certainl the flak30 could have an upgrade, but so could both sides. The upgrades can be difficult but options are available.

flak 38

3.7" HAA brit

vickers.

all in time.

 

 

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8 hours ago, david01 said:

It's not a dead horse, it would be easy to change the flak 30 to the flak 38 but for some reason they're not doing it. They put in the FMS, unless they're blind they should have seen that the importance of light AA and ATGs has increased a lot.

 

Either it's because they don't see a problem or it's because they're fans of Jwilly's pretentious babble about overall balance.

they just added SPAA, you act as though they're completely ignorant of the AA situation. 

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This comparison is based upon what can be spawned to defend depots and FMS. Bofors/88s cannot be spawned from these places, so not really a point to consider. SPAA is not yet in game but while we're on that subject, you guys get a small green SPAA that can be hidden in bushes. We get a big, loud grey thing that stands out like a sore thumb. Once again, allied get the better equipment in this front. I'm asking for AA that can be spawned from a FMS/Depot that is an actual deterrent. Is that too much to ask?

 

Also, the 2pdr can pretty much kill any axis panzer from the front/side/back and it can be spawned from a depot/FMS. A 88 can only be spawned from an armybase and requires a half track (loudest vehicle in game) to actually get it anywhere. What's the issue here? Do you think the Axis need a better ATG that can be spawned from a depot/FMS that can kill allied tanks from the front?

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and nobody is disagreeing or telling you no. however i would warn you that the flak38 isn't all that amazing in a single barrel format. 

 

further, don't sleep on the flak30 we have. its current in game effects upon airplanes WILL be changing soon and lethality should increase. granted same will happen to the allied 25mm but w/e.

 

need the flak38 no doubt. a better way would be to suggest a trio of either AA or AT guns be made to fill gaps. germans could use the 4.7cm czek AT gun and the flak38. if you also modeled the 20mm polston here you now have the guns required to do all the proposed light SPAA, multi barrel light towed AA, and the multi barrel light SPAA. however you might get more traction suggesting something else that fills a gap somewhere in the allied list and or leads to a big variant win as the rats aren't likely to stop what they're doing just to model a single new weapon. 

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I think the correct solution the FMS air camp problem is to make it undestructible by air.

The imbalance as is it to great, one side can bomb FMS at leisure, the other side can not, they will be shot down.

 

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Just change the rate of fire of the flak30 to the rate of fire of the flak38. They were similar looking anyway, and no one is gonna beotch about that. 

 

Problem solved with hardly any dev resources used up. 

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I just want crs to audit the flak30 and see if it is performing correctly. As someone who has used the flak30 a lot since 2004 it seems to be much less effective. I have been pounding laffies over and over again with he lately and not getting kills although they despawn. I know ap would be better but I save those for armored cars and light tanks. 

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Changing it to the Flak 38 via a RoF increase would certainly help and would be a step in the right direction. I fly every now and then and I'll consider myself an a slightly better than average fighter/bomber pilot. I love flying the HE-111 in a CAS role, it's like a stuka but with more bombs! Anyway, my point is, attacking a CA mle 25mm aa gun in a 109, 190, 110, stuka, HE-111 is dangerous. If they know how to use it, you'll be screwed. If there's more than one, you'll be screwed. If there's just one and I feel that they're not super accurate with it, I'll risk strafing it. I have to be smart, come in at extreme angles, flick my guns up at the last second and hope I hit something, use trees for cover etc. Flying directly at one usually involves taking a 25mm round right in the engine, killing it or losing a wing. The flak 30 doesn't feel threatening unless there's 3 or 4 setup.

The point of the FMS is to try and set a ZoC. Spawning AA guns is meant to help with that but right now, it's very one sided.

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just fyi IRL the 111 (and all level bombers) were massacred anytime they attempted the CAS role. i appreciate that you enjoy doing this, but, just understand the 111 in this scenario should always have trouble as this just wasn't the intended role.

 

all HE are about to get improved by a lot. idk exactly how much but scotsman is a nut about this stuff and did weapons work for our military as i understand it. have some faith in him. meaning, the flak30 may suck less soon via the HE audit alone. if that indeed occurs, the flak38 will still be required as the correct choice but waiting for it will suck less as the flak30 should actually hurt when it hits.

 

if the flak30 is still terrible, don't expect much from a single flak38 either as it uses the same ammo as the flak30 iirc.

Edited by madrebel

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Oh, I know the HE-111 is fragile and is easily shot down and it most certainly isn't a CAS bomber by design but alot of practicing in offline mode and video tutorials have helped me get bombs pretty accurate. I don't expect to stay alive if I hang around. My 111 gets flamed from a single well placed shot from a CA mle, so I'm not too fussed about HE being improved, I already die in 1 shot anyway haha. I'm just hoping the improved HE will benefit the 250KG bombs & 20mm flak30/38 & 40mm bofors etc.

 

 

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2 hours ago, three said:

I just want crs to audit the flak30 and see if it is performing correctly. As someone who has used the flak30 a lot since 2004 it seems to be much less effective. I have been pounding laffies over and over again with he lately and not getting kills although they despawn. I know ap would be better but I save those for armored cars and light tanks. 

It used to be effective because of the HE clipping bug way back when. They fixed it and then the flak30 turned into a useless pile of scrap metal. 

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1 hour ago, delems said:

allied AA, 0.88 KD, axis AA, 0.59 KD; basically allied is 50% better.

cmle38 has a larger HE charge, better muzzle velocity and quicker deploy time. 

It's way better than the flak30, which has been a mistake since day1, should have been the flak38.

Even if the Axis had the flak38, it probably wouldnt even be better than the cmle38 lol. Might be closer to even, but not better. 

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