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XOOM

Brigade Removal Frozen for Steam "Early Access"

514 posts in this topic

I had posted this information below in another forum thread but knowing how things go I want to get ahead of this and let you guys know our justifications for making such a bold, and very difficult move.

I encourage you guys to comment, it's not really a subject worth arguing over or getting into a pointy debate so please if you do respond keep it civil.

------------------

For clarity, at the Rat Chat we had indicated that 1.36 will not be part of the "Early Access" release of Steam. Much progress was made on the logic to support 1.36 however there was a couple of problems that made us come to this decision and it was not done lightly. Here's what they are:

  1. The user interface was actually harder.
    1. This was the first iteration but we were able to determine it would require much more ironing out and consideration / code work / QA time.
    2. Our mission was to make the UI easier and it is critical that it is done correctly.
  2. In-game training tutorials do not support it and would require sometime to get them up to speed.
    1. We now have some of our devs in here learning how the tutorials work, and getting them up to speed for the current brigade system.
    2. This will help them understand how to make improvements and modifications to it in the future.
  3. Our community would need to learn on the fly (right around the same time as these new users start coming in) how 1.36 actually works.
    1. Therefore training the new guys on how to play the game wouldn't be done very successfully.
  4. Our Wiki and other game information is not up to speed or supports it.
  5. Most importantly, our timeline to achieve our goal of Early Access by Summer of 2017 would not have been completed.
    1. This is fundamentally important because at that Rat Chat we elaborated on the necessity for population to boost the game.
    2. This is also critical for CRS to be able to fund itself.

For months I have been talking about how important this is, and it was very hard to make this decision. I am aware that it may be frustrating for some folks (myself included) that it is not going to be ready in time. 

However please come to the same understanding that I did, and that would be: We cannot release something so game changing, without all of these other things being done correctly. There's nothing to be gained by doing that.

So what are we going to do with 1.36 and/or the brigade system?

Internally we are reviewing all of our options. Everyone here can agree that our system is currently imperfect and work needs to be done. We aren't banking on the fact that just because we're getting more Steam users in that it will magically solve everything. But we do think it will help quite a bit and give us the necessary time to make improvements.

For those of you saying, "I don't care about Steam, I want other fixes!" I'd only ask you to consider what the Campaign would be like (despite some of the bugs we definitely need to squash) with more population and how that would improve things. We are an MMO after all and our game's design (including this brigade system as it is today) requires people, it is the #1 content we can have. 

I will conclude this message by verifying that CRS remains absolutely dedicated to making WWII Online better in all ways possible. Yesterday's Rat Chat should've been received as a huge demonstration of all of the pieces at play (and many more that weren't discussed as they're either too technical or not yet announced).

Thanks for your feedback guys AND your tremendous support.  I hope this message has helped shed a bit more light on things, our tough conclusions but logical reasonings for making the call we had to, and our continued understanding that what we have at present is not where it needs to be. 

DO NOTE, we will be keeping you up to speed and working with our players closely as we proceed on this subject in particular.

S! 

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Matt, you know where I stand on movable brigades.  Nonetheless, I was also disappointed by the news.  I have a feeling this came down to money more than anything:  you needed more time (money) for 1.36, and Steam early access can buy you that time. 

 

I have some questions/suggestions:

  • Are simple improvements to the current system on the table?  Back when 1.36 was first announced, there we extensive discussions on what could be done to improve brigades.  I'd be happy to compile a list if so.  
  • Are there any more details available to the public in regards to 1.36 mechanics and ruleset, or is it still too much of a work-in-progress?
  • While Steam Early Access population is likely mitigate many problems, almost none of these new players will be able to come in, join HC, and become a flag manager in a timely fashion.  We'll still have a huge bottleneck in regards to MOICs.  You should consider activating premium accounts temporarily for the Early Access release so we can swell the HC ranks a bit as well; get the HC vets hooked again with the increase in numbers.
  • The 15-hour resupply timers make map management a pain.  Please, please, PLEASE put them back towards 8 hours (maybe start with 12 if you are worried about big changes).  It doesn't require a patch and it will help immensely.  And don't wait for Early Access.  It's hurting the game every day as we speak.  
  • If RDP bombing is considered ineffective, increase the time it takes for factories to repair damage (if you don't understand how this will make RDP bombing stronger I can illustrate how; I'll even write a technical report lol).  

 

ALSO, to everyone else:  1.36 can come sooner if CRS gets more members in the Beta team for QA testing.  The more testers, the faster 1.36 will come.  https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/crs-qateam

(apologies in advance if I am incorrect to assume you need more Beta testers, @XOOM)

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Not good. 

I'm done with the brigade system. It's a broken system and needs to go at all costs. 

I won't be hanging around much longer if it's staying 'indefinitely'. 

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I'd rather the game get a shot in the arm from Steam than rush 1.36 online.

 

I'd still love to see flags go away, as I was playign a Saturday night during prime time and HC was letting AOs be set by SYSTEM!!!

 

I've heard good news from Dagger on the Steam page, and that it's almost ready to be implemented. That was enough for me to resub,

 

I'm BACK, Bichachos.

Hatch's hard work sold me with the 109 audits. What a difference. 

If the HE and weapons go from being sort of a joke to being solid performers, I'll stick around for sure.

 

I'd love to see Hatch post about his findings so far on that, BTW. I've heard odd stories from side chat, (big surprise,) and I think it needs to be clarified a little.

 

I'll go listen to the Rat Chat soon because I've heard he talked about it.

 

Vas back in action, S!

 

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1 minute ago, vasduten1 said:

I'd still love to see flags go away, as I was playign a Saturday night during prime time and HC was letting AOs be set by SYSTEM!!!

Welcome back Vas.  But just fyi, that will still happen in 1.36.  

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1 hour ago, capco said:

Matt, you know where I stand on movable brigades.  Nonetheless, I was also disappointed by the news.  I have a feeling this came down to money more than anything:  you needed more time (money) for 1.36, and Steam early access can buy you that time. 

I have some questions/suggestions:

  • Are simple improvements to the current system on the table?  Back when 1.36 was first announced, there we extensive discussions on what could be done to improve brigades.  I'd be happy to compile a list if so.  
  • Are there any more details available to the public in regards to 1.36 mechanics and ruleset, or is it still too much of a work-in-progress?
  • While Steam Early Access population is likely mitigate many problems, almost none of these new players will be able to come in, join HC, and become a flag manager in a timely fashion.  We'll still have a huge bottleneck in regards to MOICs.  You should consider activating premium accounts temporarily for the Early Access release so we can swell the HC ranks a bit as well; get the HC vets hooked again with the increase in numbers.
  • The 15-hour resupply timers make map management a pain.  Please, please, PLEASE put them back towards 8 hours (maybe start with 12 if you are worried about big changes).  It doesn't require a patch and it will help immensely.  And don't wait for Early Access.  It's hurting the game every day as we speak.  
  • If RDP bombing is considered ineffective, increase the time it takes for factories to repair damage (if you don't understand how this will make RDP bombing stronger I can illustrate how; I'll even write a technical report lol).  

ALSO, to everyone else:  1.36 can come sooner if CRS gets more members in the Beta team for QA testing.  The more testers, the faster 1.36 will come.  https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/crs-qateam

(apologies in advance if I am incorrect to assume you need more Beta testers, @XOOM)

  1. Yes.
  2. Not anymore than we haven't already shared.
  3. We have already considered this and have a draft plan ready to go.
  4. We will look at the supply timers prior to Steam to see what we can do, probably starting next campaign.
  5. We'll explore our options on this one.

1.36's roll out before Steam is purely based on time (not a financial issue). We're more concerned with making Steam happen and getting the players into WWII Online at the moment. We have been working very hard for many years to repair the team and the game to get to this point and we must capitalize on it, it will open up more options immediately and improve the health of game immediately. 

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14 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

Not good. 

I'm done with the brigade system. It's a broken system and needs to go at all costs. 

I won't be hanging around much longer if it's staying 'indefinitely'. 

Hey Mo, sorry for the bummer news. When I realized we had to make the call to wait before Steam's Early Access release, it took me about two weeks to finally do it because I really wanted it as well.

That being said, even today, we've been having a 4 hour internal discussion by voice about it. We're weighing all options to make sure everyone is up to speed on the current challenges players face today and what we can do to mitigate these concerns going forward. This is not an easy thing to fix and it's an important subject for many (very much including us).

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7 minutes ago, capco said:

Welcome back Vas.  But just fyi, that will still happen in 1.36.  

I realize that, but the action should be better without having to wait on HC to move stuff, (or not!) around to do it.

I'm less concerned about the flag system than I was about the HE and weapons audits.

I want to see HE do actual damage to squishies and vehicles that are unfortunate enough to be in the zone.

 

Most importantly, when I watch 3-4 HE rounds from my cannon hit an aircraft, I want to see it falter. In test videos from WWII on actual planes, a 20MM round would knock a damaging hole in the wing and really make for a bad return flight, if they could return at all.

 

All of this I'm listening to on Rat Chat as I type is exciting.

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5 minutes ago, vasduten1 said:

I realize that, but the action should be better without having to wait on HC to move stuff, (or not!) around to do it.

I'm less concerned about the flag system than I was about the HE and weapons audits.

I want to see HE do actual damage to squishies and vehicles that are unfortunate enough to be in the zone.

 

Most importantly, when I watch 3-4 HE rounds from my cannon hit an aircraft, I want to see it falter. In test videos from WWII on actual planes, a 20MM round would knock a damaging hole in the wing and really make for a bad return flight, if they could return at all.

 

All of this I'm listening to on Rat Chat as I type is exciting.

You should have been there to see the presentation man.  It was really great stuff.  

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@XOOM I was only able to join the chat for 10 minutes yesterday before I had to leave. I was wondering where the youtube upload is?

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5 minutes ago, capco said:

You should have been there to see the presentation man.  It was really great stuff.  

Watching it now.

Such a good thing. RatChats were always good, now they can add images and video, and the presentation is awfully good.

 

Great team!

 

S!

 

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Brigade/supply Attrition and it's movement is a much for the future of WW2ol this has produce more epic content to this game than other feature and game out there.. In real war you would be sometimes with odds with your or agaisn't plus it adds a town of roleplay, immersion, teamwork and makes the game easier or harder.

Going with town supply is 2 steps backwards, I hope instead CRS chooses to implement Assault Groups/Batallions to the game instead it would pretty much fix everything work with HC and add more value to subscribers and heroes which in turn would make CRS more money.

 

"Add more 100 "Brigades" to the game called assault battlegrounds or something like that reduce their supply to squad level like 20-40 tickets, give heroes the ability to request the use of one and further one to be request if they made 500 points in the last 7days or something similar.

Give to all premium players who achieved max rank the ability to request one of these assault groups if a player did not log in 3 days or his Assault Group would be available to be request by someone else.

This would add supply to pretty much every town and practically make soft caps a thing of the past, make HC more accessible less weight on their shoulders, these small brigades could be lost without much impact on the game, add more dynamic breakthroughs, promote teamwork since one assault group could not capture a town so this AssaultGroup owners would had to coordinate and it would finally make more money to CRS.

THIS SEEMS VERY ACHIEVABLE TODAY WITH THE CURRENT TEAM DO IT!!""

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10 minutes ago, pbveteran said:

Brigade/supply Attrition and it's movement is a much for the future of WW2ol this has produce more epic content to this game than other feature and game out there.. In real war you would be sometimes with odds with your or agaisn't plus it adds a town of roleplay, immersion, teamwork and makes the game easier or harder.

Going with town supply is 2 steps backwards, I hope instead CRS chooses to implement Assault Groups/Batallions to the game instead it would pretty much fix everything work with HC and add more value to subscribers and heroes which in turn would make CRS more money.

 

"Add more 100 "Brigades" to the game called assault battlegrounds or something like that reduce their supply to squad level like 20-40 tickets, give heroes the ability to request the use of one and further one to be request if they made 500 points in the last 7days or something similar.

Give to all premium players who achieved max rank the ability to request one of these assault groups if a player did not log in 3 days or his Assault Group would be available to be request by someone else.

This would add supply to pretty much every town and practically make soft caps a thing of the past, make HC more accessible less weight on their shoulders, these small brigades could be lost without much impact on the game, add more dynamic breakthroughs, promote teamwork since one assault group could not capture a town so this AssaultGroup owners would had to coordinate and it would finally make more money to CRS.

THIS SEEMS VERY ACHIEVABLE TODAY WITH THE CURRENT TEAM DO IT!!""

I don't think you understand that they've already invested considerable resources in the direction they are heading.  It's not possible for them to go the route of another system.  

 

We need simple fixes to the current system to act as bandaids until 1.36 comes in (I wish we were listened to in the first place but hindsight is 20/20 and I get that).  I'm reviewing old threads now to see what I can find.  

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6 minutes ago, capco said:

I don't think you understand that they've already invested considerable resources in the direction they are heading.  It's not possible for them to go the route of another system.  

 

We need simple fixes to the current system to act as bandaids until 1.36 comes in (I wish we were listened to in the first place but hindsight is 20/20 and I get that).  I'm reviewing old threads now to see what I can find.  

It is and they are making a mistake going towards town supply, it direct affects many of their sell points plus it's the path of least resistance that exponentially opens future directionss of implementations and earnings(even on short term)...

 

I will beating down this dead horse aka planting this seed everywhere I can here, it will then infiltrate on it's read minds, grow and infect propagating to other people, it will then reach a general consensus simultaneously reaching the devs and they will eventually implement it.. then I will have a reason to pay to play this game until done I pwning players with my Puma on RB Warthnunder..

 

I done this to new loading screens, 2 week Premium that converts to F2P account and yearly crowdfunding to game development... RESISTANT IS FUTILE... :D!!

 

 

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1 minute ago, pbveteran said:

It is and they are making a mistake going towards town supply, it direct affects many of their sell points plus it's the path of least resistance that exponentially opens future directionss of implementations and earnings(even on short term)...

 

I will beating down this dead horse aka planting this seed everywhere I can here, it will then infiltrate on it's read minds, grow and infect propagating to other people, it will then reach a general consensus simultaneously reaching the devs and they will eventually implement it.. then I will have a reason to pay to play this game until done I pwning players with my Puma on RB Warthnunder..

 

I done this to new loading screens, 2 week Premium that converts to F2P account and yearly crowdfunding to game development... RESISTANT IS FUTILE... :D!!

 

 

Maybe we'd take you seriously if you subbed to the game.  Put your money where your bad ideas are. 

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Here is my concern, not only do we have a small HC group to begin with, many of those HC that are still around came on board only as a stop gap before the flags/brigades were removed in order to help the game (thats why I joined as a reserve). Any of the HC I have attempted to recruit said they wouldn't do it because of the flag system but some have been convinced to jump on board because they know flags were being removed. 90% of the HC out there do not want to sit in front of the map for hours without the ability to join in the field with their squads or other friends in the game. I have a feeling your going to lose more HC and its going to get a lot worse if brigades/flags aren't removed or at least made 100% priority after steam release.

The frustration is building and it will get even worse when you add a couple hundred/thousand more players and the AO count increases to 5 or 6 AOs and your Map OICs are ripping their hair out. Then no HC will want to take the map. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Scking said:

Here is my concern, not only do we have a small HC group to begin with, many of those HC that are still around came on board only as a stop gap before the flags/brigades were removed in order to help the game (thats why I joined as a reserve). Any of the HC I have attempted to recruit said they wouldn't do it because of the flag system but some have been convinced to jump on board because they know flags were being removed. 90% of the HC out there do not want to sit in front of the map for hours without the ability to join in the field with their squads or other friends in the game. I have a feeling your going to lose more HC and its going to get a lot worse if brigades/flags aren't removed or at least made 100% priority after steam release.

The frustration is building and it will get even worse when you add a couple hundred/thousand more players and the AO count increases to 5 or 6 AOs and your Map OICs are ripping their hair out. Then no HC will want to take the map. 

 

Nailed it. 

It's a crap-show right now, imagine even 2x the average number of players on the server?  

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55 minutes ago, pbveteran said:

Brigade/supply Attrition and it's movement is a must for the future of WW2ol this has produce more epic content to this game than other feature and game out there.. In real war you would be sometimes with the odds against you or with you plus it adds a ton of roleplay, immersion, teamwork and makes sometimes the game easier or harder.

Going with town supply is two steps backwards, I hope CRS chooses to implement Assault Groups/Battalions to the game instead of town supply it would pretty much fix everything wrong with HC and add more value to subscribers and heroes which in turn would make CRS more money.

 

"Add more 100 "Brigades" to the game called assault battlegrounds or something like that, reduce their supply to squad level like 20-40 tickets, give heroes the ability to request the use of one and further one to be request if they made 500 points in the last 7 days or something similar.

Give to all premium players who achieved max rank the ability to request one of these assault groups, if a player did not log in 3 days or so, his Assault Group would be available to be request by someone else.

This would add supply to pretty much every town and practically make soft caps a thing of the past, make HC more accessible due to less weight on their shoulders, these small brigades could be lost without much impact on the game, add more dynamic breakthroughs, promote teamwork since one assault group could not capture a town so this Assault Group owners would had to coordinate and it would finally make more money to CRS.

THIS SEEMS VERY ACHIEVABLE TODAY WITH THE CURRENT TEAM DO IT!!""

Omg my dyslexia is so funny sometimes xD corrected some typos... God I hate this forum Edit policy RIP to the posts of those who have dyslexia..

 

@Scking

What is the most tedious thing about HC? and what is the most overwhelming aspect of HC?..

Proper movements! to properly run the map you must mirror enemy HC movements, keep checking brigade supplies and to which rotate to and making a mistake greatly affects the experience of players and you are usually solely responsible for it, the current number of brigades make this overwhelming to a moic and stressful and unrewarding for most new HC.

Some people ask to reduce the number of brigades because this would make it easier to check supply and rotations TRUE but this would make mistakes even more debilitating reducing HC recruitment and also stalling the map.

 

So what would more brigades with less supply do?

It might appear that this would making things more tedious but I think it's quite quite the opposite with more brigades you could have more reserves, which would make more local movements and rotation closer to each other, you could also set less supply on front line towns which would make losses of those towns less debilitating and you would also allow a step by step attack or defense, which indirectly would force people do the more with less.

And more importantly this would allow mistakes and be less overwhelming to new players!!.. Which would bring more HC in for sure!

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I don't think anyone should be near HC w/o like 300 hours of game time.  Unless they show some sort of accelerated learning regarding the game.

I mean this in the moving flags sense, not that they are leaders or not - there are some good leaders in game - but they are so-so at best at managing the flags imo.

 

As for cutting RDP to 8 hours - not unless you cut all supply in flags in half (fractions rounded up).

And even then, I'd cut everything with a motor in half again.

 

Edited by delems

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46 minutes ago, Scking said:

Here is my concern, not only do we have a small HC group to begin with, many of those HC that are still around came on board only as a stop gap before the flags/brigades were removed in order to help the game (thats why I joined as a reserve). Any of the HC I have attempted to recruit said they wouldn't do it because of the flag system but some have been convinced to jump on board because they know flags were being removed. 90% of the HC out there do not want to sit in front of the map for hours without the ability to join in the field with their squads or other friends in the game. I have a feeling your going to lose more HC and its going to get a lot worse if brigades/flags aren't removed or at least made 100% priority after steam release.

The frustration is building and it will get even worse when you add a couple hundred/thousand more players and the AO count increases to 5 or 6 AOs and your Map OICs are ripping their hair out. Then no HC will want to take the map. 

 

I, also hope that 1.36 is top priority after Steam.

 

I mean, really.

 

XOOM has said that he really wants to be able to do this, and the decision to hold off was a really hard one to make.

Resources.

It comes down to resources.

 

PBVeteran... you have some good ideas, but I disagree that veteran players should be able to ask for and receive sub groups or squad level supplies. The idea that adding even more confusion to the existing system isn't really a good one.

Imagine having resources siphoned away by "veteran" players just because they want to go do something on their own. It's already like herding cats; adding more chefs won't make the soup any better.

 

It's like a pot of soup that started out as a wholesome chicken and vegetable soup, then someone wanted to add cumin, and another added beef stock, and so on and so on. Now you're saying we should let even more chefs into the kitchen to toss a can of beans, some ground pork and spaghetti sauce into the pot.

 

For that reason, I'm out.

 

Also, pay up, sucker... hahaha I just resubbed. Come on in, man... the heavy water that may or may not have been drunk by some German is fine.

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47 minutes ago, XOOM said:
  1. Yes.
  2. Not anymore than we haven't already shared.
  3. We have already considered this and have a draft plan ready to go.
  4. We will look at the supply timers prior to Steam to see what we can do, probably starting next campaign.
  5. We'll explore our options on this one.

1.36's roll out before Steam is purely based on time (not a financial issue). We're more concerned with making Steam happen and getting the players into WWII Online at the moment. We have been working very hard for many years to repair the team and the game to get to this point and we must capitalize on it, it will open up more options immediately and improve the health of game immediately. 

First, I <3 you for hearing me out in regards to 4 (and even 5).  Next campaign is perfect; it's going to help HC a lot.  Thank you!

 

Here's what I've compiled so far:  

 

No coding required

  • Reduce resupply timers to 8 hours
    • Each TZ effectively has its own supply to work with
    • Overall supply numbers in brigades may need tweaking after this change
  • Lengthen trickle timers after brigade movements
    • Mitigates effects of flag stacking brigade warping
  • Lengthen flag movement timers to 45min backline / 90min frontline
    • Lessens total amount of movement
    • Decreases potential breakouts
    • Increases the time it takes to fix bad flag placement (this is a negative)

 

Coding required

  • Set fallbacks with a .fallback command
    • Removes hours of flag moving currently required to set fallbacks
  • Adding a trickle delay to brigades after being moved
    • Mitigates effects of flag stacking and brigade warping
  • Ability to queue brigade moves in advance
    • Allows HCs to focus on creating battles instead of watching flag timers
  • Deny moving a flag into an active or contested DO
    • Encourages manual resupply and interdiction from outside the DO

 

Extensive coding required

  • Static, town-based brigades (~80% of total supply) with supplemental, movable brigades controlled by HC (~20% of total supply)
  • Overhauled UI making the whole process easier, likely including all the above suggestions
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10 minutes ago, pbveteran said:

@Scking

What is the most tedious thing about HC? and what is the most overwhelming aspect of HC?..

Proper movements! to properly run the map you must mirror enemy HC movements, keep checking brigade supplies and to which rotate to and making a mistake greatly affects the experience of players and you are usually solely responsible for it, the current number of brigades make this overwhelming to a moic and stressful and unrewarding for most new HC.

 

 

The most tedious thing about HC are the players your trying to help. Many are backseat drivers and unwilling to join in to help because they fear the same type of people that they are being. So its a delicate balance between running things and making others on your side happy.

The most overwhelming aspect of HC is Map OIC when there are more than 3 AOs. Not only do you have to worry about supply and fallbacks in 6+ locations, you also have to keep an eye on the enemy flag movement, getting .allied/.axis out for areas where people are needed. Right now HC is not run like it used to be when I first was HC. There are not enough people in the orbat to even come close.

Back in the day, there were enough people in the orbat to have two armies. Allies had BEF and ArFr and the Axis had 12th Army and 6th Army. It was a fully functional orbat where senior command ran the map strategic targets and your country/army command delegated AO's to their Division and Brigade commanders and the AOs and DOs were run by the Brigade CO/XO/XXO/IC's.. Now? Its all done by one person.  Doesn't matter if its a brigade XXO or the CinC, one person runs the map and thats not how an orbat should work. The Orbat is completely broken due to the lack of officers. And no one wants to join HC because they don't want to be Map OIC, it gets worse. When you add more people to the game, the AOs are going to increase and the HC system is going to break badly. 

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Just look at the Axis and Allied ORBATs.. When I came back to the game, I was shocked at how empty it was. That was part of why I rejoined HC as a reserve to help. Its actually filled in a little because some of these officers are under the impression that flags are going away. 

 

Allied ORBAT: http://alliedhq.wwiionline.com/alliedplaynow/allied_officer_list_p.php

Axis ORBAT: http://axishq.wwiionline.com/axisplaynow/axis_officer_list_p.php

 

I don't know who are reserves and who aren't reserves but its a pretty bare ORBAT.  I remember when all those slots were filled and there was also 3IC-10IC on there all filled as well.

 

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Reserve officers just help out if needed but the regular Hc will do most of the map moves. reserve officers don't usually do much it's more to help the regulars than to actually do the map moves.

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