XOOM

Brigade Removal Frozen for Steam "Early Access"

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5 minutes ago, Capco said:

Make it so that the path of least resistance isn't necessarily the path of no resistance.  

Is this like a hybrid TOE/TOWN system? Like adding in a NavyFlag-type supply in each town?  

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I could see keeping TOEs under one circumstance that involves a series of rule changes. 

1.  When a town with flags gets an AO slapped on it flags can only move out not in. 

2. If a town without a flag in it gets AOed HC is allowed to move ONE brigade so the town can be fought over.

3. If a town had a brigade in it when it was AOed but all brigades were moved out during the battle tough luck. You don't get to exploit rule number 2. 

4.  Any brigade movement that was put in the pipeline BEFORE the AO dropped is a valid move. Nobody gets punished for movement lag time. 

Now you have a strategy game where attrition is possible, interdiction missions are back, and HC actually has to both prioritize and think ahead. The lack of constant warping supply might even make battles fun again. The supply crutch gets neutered and if want to rescue a town you do it from the field.

That is the only way to save the beast and make it workable.  A hybrid garrison supply could work with the above as well. 

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53 minutes ago, saronin said:

I could see keeping TOEs under one circumstance that involves a series of rule changes. 

1.  When a town with flags gets an AO slapped on it flags can only move out not in. 

2. If a town without a flag in it gets AOed HC is allowed to move ONE brigade so the town can be fought over.

3. If a town had a brigade in it when it was AOed but all brigades were moved out during the battle tough luck. You don't get to exploit rule number 2. 

4.  Any brigade movement that was put in the pipeline BEFORE the AO dropped is a valid move. Nobody gets punished for movement lag time. 

Now you have a strategy game where attrition is possible, interdiction missions are back, and HC actually has to both prioritize and think ahead. The lack of constant warping supply might even make battles fun again. The supply crutch gets neutered and if want to rescue a town you do it from the field.

That is the only way to save the beast and make it workable.  A hybrid garrison supply could work with the above as well. 

This would probably be enough. 

Probably alot easier than removing flags too.

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1 hour ago, saronin said:

I could see keeping TOEs under one circumstance that involves a series of rule changes. 

1.  When a town with flags gets an AO slapped on it flags can only move out not in. 

2. If a town without a flag in it gets AOed HC is allowed to move ONE brigade so the town can be fought over.

3. If a town had a brigade in it when it was AOed but all brigades were moved out during the battle tough luck. You don't get to exploit rule number 2. 

4.  Any brigade movement that was put in the pipeline BEFORE the AO dropped is a valid move. Nobody gets punished for movement lag time. 

Now you have a strategy game where attrition is possible, interdiction missions are back, and HC actually has to both prioritize and think ahead. The lack of constant warping supply might even make battles fun again. The supply crutch gets neutered and if want to rescue a town you do it from the field.

That is the only way to save the beast and make it workable.  A hybrid garrison supply could work with the above as well. 

This is a GREAT idea.

 

I'd only add automatic fallbacks to this.

Having flags pushed out by an AB or dock capture and then they magically warp thousands of km away?!? Idiotic.

 

I'd love to try this idea out and have the bugs worked out before a Steam release.

 

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2 hours ago, saronin said:

I could see keeping TOEs under one circumstance that involves a series of rule changes. 

1.  When a town with flags gets an AO slapped on it flags can only move out not in. 

2. If a town without a flag in it gets AOed HC is allowed to move ONE brigade so the town can be fought over.

3. If a town had a brigade in it when it was AOed but all brigades were moved out during the battle tough luck. You don't get to exploit rule number 2. 

4.  Any brigade movement that was put in the pipeline BEFORE the AO dropped is a valid move. Nobody gets punished for movement lag time. 

Now you have a strategy game where attrition is possible, interdiction missions are back, and HC actually has to both prioritize and think ahead. The lack of constant warping supply might even make battles fun again. The supply crutch gets neutered and if want to rescue a town you do it from the field.

That is the only way to save the beast and make it workable.  A hybrid garrison supply could work with the above as well. 

In regards to:

1.  The one thing I don't like about this is that AO placement can be gamed to prevent brigade movements (which could be a real problem if we go past 3 AOs with a Steam release).  I'd prefer the restriction be tied to whether the town is contested or not, OR link brigade movement to the City CP to actually give the City CP some importance.  

2.  This rule shouldn't supersede movement timers.  If there is an empty town and your flags are on timers, tough luck.  Also, this rule wouldn't be necessary with a hybrid garrison system. 

3.  Agreed.

4.  Agreed.  

 

I'd also like to add:

5.  Give HC the ability to set fallbacks with a .dot command.  

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10 hours ago, forrest said:

Is this like a hybrid TOE/TOWN system? Like adding in a NavyFlag-type supply in each town?  

Correct.  Tie roughly that amount of supply to each town so that softcaps are a thing of the past.  

Edited by Capco
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29 minutes ago, Capco said:

5.  Give HC the ability to set fallbacks with a .dot command.  

Amen.

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40 minutes ago, Capco said:

In regards to:

1.  The one thing I don't like about this is that AO placement can be gamed to prevent brigade movements (which could be a real problem if we go past 3 AOs with a Steam release).  I'd prefer the restriction be tied to whether the town is contested or not, OR link brigade movement to the City CP to actually give the City CP some importance.  

2.  This rule shouldn't supersede movement timers.  If there is an empty town and your flags are on timers, tough luck.  Also, this rule wouldn't be necessary with a hybrid garrison system. 

3.  Agreed.

4.  Agreed.  

 

I'd also like to add:

5.  Give HC the ability to set fallbacks with a .dot command.  

1.  Nope.  It is too easy to uncontest a town in game. That puts the supply crutch right back in play. Rescue of a town should be done in the field not by some magical Star Trek transporter. We already have enough gamey crap to facilitate gameplay like FRUs that can be used for rescue operations. HC should have to think ahead instead of using the crutch. 

I thought about the fact that AOs could be used to prevent brigade movements. First it ties up the AO for the attacking side. There is a cost. Second, units are not just transiting through active battle zones. If a town is under fire and they are moving from point A to point B and don't plan to engage they are finding a way around anyway.  It actually makes brigade movements more realistic. 

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Be nice to xoom and the rest of the volunteers.  At least they admit the toe system needs to go and aren't sitting here telling you "this is how we intended the game to be, sorry it's not your version" like the last rocket scientists who now work at pet smart 

 

....But here's some new vehicles and planes to use with your broken game mechanics! Lawl! You are not going anywhere until you fix the basic command and supply fundamentals that shape a good game or a very bad one. 

You could add the Bismarck, make the game free (did that) and make a commercial on the history channel and would still only have 100 people on the server. Because the graphics, ui, wtf toe supply, sofcaps, hc only show, and the fact that you somehow reduced gameplay to fight in a box like ants single file all suck

I'm just here to remind all the clowns who made this call back in 2004.  Don't think I could touch this game again even with my dream game mechanics.  It just looks and plays like crap.

 

Love

Oj

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Capco said:

That's not my intent at all.  Even if CRS implemented all of Silky's changes before the Steam release, there's a snowball's chance in hell that it would permanently fix the game.

 

But what improvements like that will do is improve gameplay in the meantime before 1.36.  

 

If 1.36 is frozen in the meantime, you'd want better gameplay until then, wouldn't you?  There's nothing to be afraid of here.  

Unfortunately they made the announcement of removing/ or shifting away from TOE's over a year ago..Nothing has been changed since that announcement so why should we expect any subtle changes that prolong crappy gameplay which is reliant on a non existent HC structure?

 

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12 minutes ago, saronin said:

1.  Nope.  It is too easy to uncontest a town in game. That puts the supply crutch right back in play. Rescue of a town should be done in the field not by some magical Star Trek transporter. We already have enough gamey crap to facilitate gameplay like FRUs that can be used for rescue operations. HC should have to think ahead instead of using the crutch. 

I thought about the fact that AOs could be used to prevent brigade movements. First it ties up the AO for the attacking side. There is a cost. Second, units are not just transiting through active battle zones. If a town is under fire and they are moving from point A to point B and don't plan to engage they are finding a way around anyway.  It actually makes brigade movements more realistic. 

The problem is that it still allows the attacker to rotate their supply indefinitely.  That's a massive advantage.  The defender needs some way to respond to that while the attacker should have a way to prevent that response.  

 

The only way to stop the attacker rotating supply would be to counter AO the towns that you are being attacked from, even if you don't have the FBs.  

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And Capco i'd also like to say i don't have anything personal against you...I'm just very adamant about getting rid of TOE's. My apologies if it seems i'm attacking you;)

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3 minutes ago, Pittpete said:

And Capco i'd also like to say i don't have anything personal against you...I'm just very adamant about getting rid of TOE's. My apologies if it seems i'm attacking you;)

Cheers buddy S!  Same feelings here.

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13 minutes ago, Capco said:

The problem is that it still allows the attacker to rotate their supply indefinitely.  That's a massive advantage.  The defender needs some way to respond to that while the attacker should have a way to prevent that response.  

 

The only way to stop the attacker rotating supply would be to counter AO the towns that you are being attacked from, even if you don't have the FBs.  

I'd be interested to see how it might have worked if capping the city CP prevented bde rotation 

 

it would've been interesting to see genuine fights over the City CP, without defenders spawning feet away 

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20 minutes ago, Silky said:

I'd be interested to see how it might have worked if capping the city CP prevented bde rotation 

 

it would've been interesting to see genuine fights over the City CP, without defenders spawning feet away 

I suggested this a year ago, so that City CP would actually matter.

Currently, it's moot. City cp is like tits on a bull.

 

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34 minutes ago, sg1 said:

 

I'm just here to remind all the clowns who made this call back in 2004.  Don't think I could touch this game again even with my dream game mechanics.  It just looks and plays like crap.

 

Love

Oj

 

my my. the game's still around and so are  you? fixate much Mr OJ? you time travel to 2017 to whine about something you said in 2004? guess  you predicted the Flames would win the Stanley Cup then too. laughable. here's  your Squad Leader uniform back in case  you need it for whatever 'dream mechanics' game  you play. 

59100-SeAIOpOci3dUFT3Uwi9bOw.jpg

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19 hours ago, Capco said:

The problem is that it still allows the attacker to rotate their supply indefinitely.  That's a massive advantage.  The defender needs some way to respond to that while the attacker should have a way to prevent that response.  

 

The only way to stop the attacker rotating supply would be to counter AO the towns that you are being attacked from, even if you don't have the FBs.  

Easy fix.  Lock all the the towns that link to the AO for the attacker in the same manner. If you failed to provide sufficient supply for the attack before dropping an AO that is your problem. 

Next excuse for maintaining the supply crutch?  

Edited by saronin

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5 hours ago, Pittpete said:

Unfortunately they made the announcement of removing/ or shifting away from TOE's over a year ago.

Damn, it's been a year already? 

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Ok.  Avoided this thread for a week. Wud I miss? Anything? Anything new? 

Thought so. 

TTFN

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1 hour ago, XOOM said:

Damn, it's been a year already? 

Yes....Thats why its so hard to swallow:(

Edited by Pittpete
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12 hours ago, saronin said:

I could see keeping TOEs under one circumstance that involves a series of rule changes. 

1.  When a town with flags gets an AO slapped on it flags can only move out not in. 

2. If a town without a flag in it gets AOed HC is allowed to move ONE brigade so the town can be fought over.

3. If a town had a brigade in it when it was AOed but all brigades were moved out during the battle tough luck. You don't get to exploit rule number 2. 

4.  Any brigade movement that was put in the pipeline BEFORE the AO dropped is a valid move. Nobody gets punished for movement lag time. 

Now you have a strategy game where attrition is possible, interdiction missions are back, and HC actually has to both prioritize and think ahead. The lack of constant warping supply might even make battles fun again. The supply crutch gets neutered and if want to rescue a town you do it from the field.

That is the only way to save the beast and make it workable.  A hybrid garrison supply could work with the above as well. 

Awesome idea :).

S!

 

But i guess town supply will eventually come to solve alot of the current HC related issues.

Edited by maxios

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12 hours ago, sorella said:

my my. the game's still around and so are  you? fixate much Mr OJ? you time travel to 2017 to whine about something you said in 2004? guess  you predicted the Flames would win the Stanley Cup then too. laughable. here's  your Squad Leader uniform back in case  you need it for whatever 'dream mechanics' game  you play. 

59100-SeAIOpOci3dUFT3Uwi9bOw.jpg

You know what I have more respect for OJ than I have for you. Of the two of you I have seen his organizing skills and his leadership skills. Not because I was one of his squad members but because I played against him daily for a long time .  Do you honestly think OJ was the only one saying this was the wrong path to go down? News flash he was not these forums blew up when they announced the change. If you need a villain don't blame OJ  blame the system that failed and continues to fail to this very day. P. S. - Rats why did you take away my Brit Grenadiers heat nades and replace them with a timed HE grenade  at least make them go off on impact GRRRRRR!!!!!!!!

Edited by zbus

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7 hours ago, zbus said:

You know what I have more respect for OJ than I have for you. 

I have total respect for OJ as a player and a leader. I don't respect the condescension and nattering negativity of his finger-pointing 'i told  y'all' attitude.

There's lots of people and ideas in this thread putting forward and debating solutions to the problem which everyone recognizes. He's still talking about 2004. Time to move on. 

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2 minutes ago, sorella said:

I have total respect for OJ as a player and a leader. I don't respect the condescension and nattering negativity of his finger-pointing 'i told  y'all' attitude.

There's lots of people and ideas in this thread putting forward and debating solutions to the problem which everyone recognizes. He's still talking about 2004. Time to move on. 

Hardly anyone recognizes the problem. The game has a gameplay problem not an exposure/advertising problem. Keeping TOE and releasing on Steam would be the proper action if the gameplay was good, but people just didn't know about the game. What I see is a lot of desperation to save bad gameplay. "Hold on, we just need more players" has been the chorus used to dismiss gameplay problems for a long time. 

 

Also it's not really possible to move on because every time that someone proposes a change to TOE or HC, you get HC officers or even devs in here talking about how bad things were when big healthy squads existed and couldn't be countered or limited by HC and TOE. The game still doesn't even have squad missions back because people are so afraid of squads. So there's some hangup that still plagues the game and it's due to a profound misunderstanding of issues gong all the way back to 2004.

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59 minutes ago, sorella said:

I have total respect for OJ as a player and a leader. I don't respect the condescension and nattering negativity of his finger-pointing 'i told  y'all' attitude.

There's lots of people and ideas in this thread putting forward and debating solutions to the problem which everyone recognizes. He's still talking about 2004. Time to move on. 

You don't get it do you no idea that involves the current TOE system and HC is going to work. Its a broken system that relies on to few people to run it . Example this morning again no HC on for hours. And the 6 or 7 allies who where  on getting curb stomped by  axis town after town. The overpop would not be so bad  I can handle that issue but the sheer fact you cant even move the flags to adjust for the caps is just annoying beyond belief. We had TZ3 in town based supply as well but at least we did not have to worry about break outs and flags being cut off, All I see here is a few trying desperately to hold on to the power they hold to control other players paid for play time.  Simple fact polishing a turd might make you feel good but at the end of the day it is still a turd. Also consider this OJ and others like him have been posting since 2004 because they love the game and hate to see what this current system has done to it. The simple fact he posts even after all these years should tell you that.  

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