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      Hells Gate   03/24/2019

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      Date: 3/30/19 Time: 11:00 AM Server time/ 12:00pm EST/ 1600 GMT
XOOM

Brigade Removal Frozen for Steam "Early Access"

514 posts in this topic

@vasduten1

Sorry if it came across as veterans or subscribers would get their own supply I meant they would ONLY have full authority on their movement on the map, every player could still spawn on them. Plus the current HC brigades would still be ingame.

 

This would be a high level perk meaning after achieving max rank, which makes you more likely to know what you are doing it would open a new form of strategic gameplay, just like Heroes and Generals had initially on their game. It would also allow good players to fill gaps when HC was not on and prevent HC mistakes and start self teaching players map movements on their own.

I was really shocked when I joined HC that I really couldn't move where I wanted to and I felt overwhelmed when I had like 20 brigades under my command xD this made almost impossible to play the game and felt like I was paying to work xD

 

As for paying for the game I don't have much disposable income what I have is spent on DRM Free titles plus most of my limited game time is spent on Warthunder which is free, I'm also perma-banned on the forums half of what you pay is dreaming and expressing what WW2ol will become, also what I enjoy the most is tanking and tanking in this game can be so much frustrating at times I really can't handle more than small burst... getting tracked otw to town with no way to repair, getting degun with no way to repair and no visual feedback and adding the critical, track damage states that force you to limp around the map, no stug mg, unrealist gun dispersion, infinite recoil wobble when tracked, some straight shots that penetrate but only kill the driver when you have enough shell explosive content to kill everyone, getting your gunner killed but still have the tank working and the rest of the crew alive but you can't change seats, not being to choose how many rounds to carry, black box damage models with no way to test or get visual feedback, armor thickness and projectile penetration is not even public, slopped armor is to forgiving... 

 

I done everything there was to be done in WW2ol I'm happy to have experience this game, as a soon to be graduated in programming focus on game development, having played this game really enrich me and even my studies maybe in the future I might even join the team working on WW2ol for unreal or start doing it on my own :P

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1 hour ago, capco said:

First, I <3 you for hearing me out in regards to 4 (and even 5).  Next campaign is perfect; it's going to help HC a lot.  Thank you!

Here's what I've compiled so far:  

No coding required

  • Reduce resupply timers to 8 hours
    • Each TZ effectively has its own supply to work with
    • Overall supply numbers in brigades may need tweaking after this change
  • Lengthen trickle timers after brigade movements
    • Mitigates effects of flag stacking brigade warping
  • Lengthen flag movement timers to 45min backline / 90min frontline
    • Lessens total amount of movement
    • Decreases potential breakouts
    • Increases the time it takes to fix bad flag placement (this is a negative)

Coding required

  • Set fallbacks with a .fallback command
    • Removes hours of flag moving currently required to set fallbacks
  • Adding a trickle delay to brigades after being moved
    • Mitigates effects of flag stacking and brigade warping
  • Ability to queue brigade moves in advance
    • Allows HCs to focus on creating battles instead of watching flag timers
  • Deny moving a flag into an active or contested DO
    • Encourages manual resupply and interdiction from outside the DO

Extensive coding required

  • Static, town-based brigades (~80% of total supply) with supplemental, movable brigades controlled by HC (~20% of total supply)
  • Overhauled UI making the whole process easier, likely including all the above suggestions

Good list, I'll think on this a bit and see what can be done / how it can fit.

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2 hours ago, Scking said:

Here is my concern, not only do we have a small HC group to begin with, many of those HC that are still around came on board only as a stop gap before the flags/brigades were removed in order to help the game (thats why I joined as a reserve). Any of the HC I have attempted to recruit said they wouldn't do it because of the flag system but some have been convinced to jump on board because they know flags were being removed. 90% of the HC out there do not want to sit in front of the map for hours without the ability to join in the field with their squads or other friends in the game. I have a feeling your going to lose more HC and its going to get a lot worse if brigades/flags aren't removed or at least made 100% priority after steam release.

The frustration is building and it will get even worse when you add a couple hundred/thousand more players and the AO count increases to 5 or 6 AOs and your Map OICs are ripping their hair out. Then no HC will want to take the map. 

 

Ding...Ding... Ding......We have a winner!!  When I was playing Allied for a bit I was a reserve ONLY with the anticipation of 1.36 and brigade removal......otherwise I would not have done it.  Im back playing Axis now and was just going to wait the 30 days and re-apply to Axis HC.  With this news I will not apply and just wait it out till the flags are removed before re-upping.

XOOM..........I understand you decisions and Im sure they were not made lightly......but its too bad this could not be achieved in time.

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19 minutes ago, bmw said:

XOOM..........I understand you decisions and Im sure they were not made lightly......but its too bad this could not be achieved in time.

Indeed, a very difficult but necessary one. Thanks for your understanding S!

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I understand but feel this is a big mistake....look whats happening as we speak.No HC on :huh:

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8 minutes ago, Pittpete said:

I understand but feel this is a big mistake....look whats happening as we speak.No HC on :huh:

At least with flags gone we'd only be stuck with the system placing AOs. 

Now, with no HC on, one side could lose the map because of the inability to move flags.

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7 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

At least with flags gone we'd only be stuck with the system placing AOs. 

Now, with no HC on, one side could lose the map because of the inability to move flags.

Exactly the point given me by a certain Rat 4-5 months ago when emphatic about removing brigades

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1 minute ago, Scking said:

Exactly the point given me by a certain Rat 4-5 months ago when emphatic about removing brigades

I know Xoom would do everything possible to follow through on this, but if he can't, he can't.  

It sucks, it blows, it might even get me to unsub, but it is what it is.  

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3 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

I know Xoom would do everything possible to follow through on this, but if he can't, he can't.  

It sucks, it blows, it might even get me to unsub, but it is what it is.  

Mos, I am not worried about it not getting done prior to initial steam release, I am worried about it not being done at all. I don't see any confidence or assurance from CRS that its even a priority whatsoever even after the initial steam release. Of course 1.36 will come, but the wording lately seems to have a change in stance on brigade/flag removal.

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26 minutes ago, Pittpete said:

I understand but feel this is a big mistake....look whats happening as we speak.No HC on :huh:

I was thinking about playing again soon, but for now I'm recharging my batteries for the Early Access release.  That's going to be the most critical time for MOICs between now and 1.36.  

 

It would really, really help if some of you would buck up and join HC during that time (probably a month or two), when 1.36 is on the home stretch.  I will be putting in as many hours as I can during that time, especially the first couple weeks, and every little bit is going to help us get through this final piece of the 1.36 puzzle.  

 

I know it's disheartening guys.  I know we've been pushed to the limit and had our patience worn thin.  I know you don't want another "job".  You think I'm looking forward to these 5+ hour MOIC stints?  I'm not.  I'm kinda pissed at CRS for forcing my hand during Early Access, but it is what it is.  

 

Just think about it.  Please.  I'll help anyone along who's willing to sign up.  And we're not necessarily looking for MOICs;  just contribute in some way that makes the MOIC's burden less burdensome.  I'll carry my load this one last time, but I need YOU to help me do it!

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1 minute ago, Scking said:

Mos, I am not worried about it not getting done prior to initial steam release, I am worried about it not being done at all. I don't see any confidence or assurance from CRS that its even a priority whatsoever even after the initial steam release. Of course 1.36 will come, but the wording lately seems to have a change in stance on brigade/flag removal.

Yup... "freeze" turns into never.  :/ 

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6 hours ago, vasduten1 said:

 

Most importantly, when I watch 3-4 HE rounds from my cannon hit an aircraft, I want to see it falter. In test videos from WWII on actual planes, a 20MM round would knock a damaging hole in the wing and really make for a bad return flight, if they could return at all.

 

I was reading a book on the LW and it said that detailed gun camera analysis during the war showed that it to an average of 20 20mm hits to bring down an allied heavy bomber and an average of 3 20mm hits, or 1 30mm hit, to bring down an allied fighter.  Great info, first I have seen like this.  Unfortunately  there was no accompanying reference.  

Edited by GrAnit
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9 hours ago, XOOM said:

So what are we going to do with 1.36 and/or the brigade system?

Internally we are reviewing all of our options. Everyone here can agree that our system is currently imperfect and work needs to be done. We aren't banking on the fact that just because we're getting more Steam users in that it will magically solve everything. But we do think it will help quite a bit and give us the necessary time to make improvements.

 

This is my concern.. No assurance that its any priority to even remove brigades after steam initial release. There are now "options" rather than an emphatic flags/brigades are going away.

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I am going to do my best to digress from this conversation. Will move on and let it go.. 

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2 minutes ago, Scking said:

This is my concern.. No assurance that its any priority to even remove brigades after steam initial release. There are now "options" rather than an emphatic flags/brigades are going away.

That's not the impression I got from the Rat Chat at all.  

 

Believe me, Xoom and I have gone into lengthy discussions about flag removal when it was first announced.  I'm certain this remains CRS's #1 priority (almost to the point of inflexibility).  

 

Xoom is being a realist and open to any quick fixes that will ease the transition.  He is not looking to permanently fix movable brigades.  They have talked about movable brigades possibly being re-implemented later, or perhaps even going to a hybrid system right off the bat.  

 

Keep the faith guys!  I think this shows a great deal of foresight on CRS's part.  

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8 minutes ago, capco said:

That's not the impression I got from the Rat Chat at all.  

 

Believe me, Xoom and I have gone into lengthy discussions about flag removal when it was first announced.  I'm certain this remains CRS's #1 priority (almost to the point of inflexibility).  

 

Xoom is being a realist and open to any quick fixes that will ease the transition.  He is not looking to permanently fix movable brigades.  They have talked about movable brigades possibly being re-implemented later, or perhaps even going to a hybrid system right off the bat.  

 

Keep the faith guys!  I think this shows a great deal of foresight on CRS's part.  

 I hear ya, we've come this far...like giving up on the 21st mile of a marathon lol

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1 hour ago, GrAnit said:

I was reading a book on the LW and it said that detailed gun camera analysis during the war showed that it to an average of 20 20mm hits to bring down an allied heavy bomber and an average of 3 20mm hits, or 1 30mm hit, to bring down an allied fighter.  Great info, first I have soon like this.  Unfortunately  there was no accompanying reference.  

Here's what a 30MM does to a wing of a Spit.

 

I guess it's more than a little ironice that they're tesing on a Spit MkII

Edited by vasduten1
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No Axis HC on again. 

Getting rid of flags should be the absolute 100% priority. 

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1 hour ago, vasduten1 said:

Here's what a 30MM does to a wing of a Spit.

 

I guess it's more than a little ironice that they're tesing on a Spit MkII

Awesome footage.  I think Scots work will pay huge dividends for realistic ammo damage.

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Any sort of re-release or advertising before fixing a critical flaw with your product is putting the cart before the horse IMO. A Steam launch isn't going to go well due to the problems with the brigade system. I think that the problems should be obvious but I guess people don't think that they're that big of a deal.

14 hours ago, Scking said:

Here is my concern, not only do we have a small HC group to begin with, many of those HC that are still around came on board only as a stop gap before the flags/brigades were removed in order to help the game (thats why I joined as a reserve). Any of the HC I have attempted to recruit said they wouldn't do it because of the flag system but some have been convinced to jump on board because they know flags were being removed. 90% of the HC out there do not want to sit in front of the map for hours without the ability to join in the field with their squads or other friends in the game. I have a feeling your going to lose more HC and its going to get a lot worse if brigades/flags aren't removed or at least made 100% priority after steam release.

That was just a recruiting ploy. The debate has always been "How can we get more people to join HC?" rather than whether or not it is a good system. Brigade removal wasn't even considered an option until CRS personnel were forced to log on and run the map themselves. They got some players to "step up" and be their unpaid game admins and then shifted priorities and resources.

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15 hours ago, Scking said:

Here is my concern, not only do we have a small HC group to begin with, many of those HC that are still around came on board only as a stop gap before the flags/brigades were removed in order to help the game (thats why I joined as a reserve). Any of the HC I have attempted to recruit said they wouldn't do it because of the flag system but some have been convinced to jump on board because they know flags were being removed. 90% of the HC out there do not want to sit in front of the map for hours without the ability to join in the field with their squads or other friends in the game. I have a feeling your going to lose more HC and its going to get a lot worse if brigades/flags aren't removed or at least made 100% priority after steam release.

The frustration is building and it will get even worse when you add a couple hundred/thousand more players and the AO count increases to 5 or 6 AOs and your Map OICs are ripping their hair out. Then no HC will want to take the map. 

 

times eleventy... billion

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2 hours ago, david01 said:

Any sort of re-release or advertising before fixing a critical flaw with your product is putting the cart before the horse IMO. A Steam launch isn't going to go well due to the problems with the brigade system. I think that the problems should be obvious but I guess people don't think that they're that big of a deal.

That was just a recruiting ploy. The debate has always been "How can we get more people to join HC?" rather than whether or not it is a good system. Brigade removal wasn't even considered an option until CRS personnel were forced to log on and run the map themselves. They got some players to "step up" and be their unpaid game admins and then shifted priorities and resources.

hehehe What if... all the HC just said, "F this." and went on strike?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

System would set AOs, and nothing would get moved and no fallbacks would be set.

 

In other words, we wouldn't even notice.

 

 

Got to get rid of this system.

A Steam release with the current ToEs/brigade system would likely be damaging.

 

 

 

 

 

People would try it out for free, and have the worst experience -entire divisions routed to training, one big cut and people would stop logging in. 

They'd say, "What's the point of this game if we have to have a handful of players move things we can spawn around?"

 

 

Like a lead balloon.

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Quote

Any sort of re-release or advertising before fixing a critical flaw with your product is putting the cart before the horse IMO. A Steam launch isn't going to go well due to the problems with the brigade system.

 

I'm really fearing a Steam release now..Can you picture the TZ 3 problem exacerbated with hundreds of new players and no HC on?

All resources should be focused on fixing and simplifying a broken failing system. 

Edited by Pittpete

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Was the removal of Brigades tied to all the other stuff that was 1.36?....... UI rework?  Could the Brigade removal have been a stand alone project without all the other work that is being done or does it tie in somehow with the other code?

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