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XOOM

Brigade Removal Frozen for Steam "Early Access"

514 posts in this topic

21 minutes ago, king4t said:

 

Of course the problem is about supply. If each flag had 2 infantry in it then I wouldn't mind if the other HC moved in 100 flags. If each flag contained 100 heavy tanks, then it would likely be attack over if they moved 1 flag in. You get this concept, right?

 

Now, when there are only a couple of active AOs on the map this means that with very little risk, a HC can rotate in and out several divisions of supply every couple of hours. With enough AOs, it is possible to achieve targeted attrition of a whole area, to use AOs to pin enemy flags in place and force a situation whereby the local advantages of multiple links or a supply stack can be exploited.

 

With the greater numbers recently has come a boost to supply per flag. Yet not enough to prevent large areas from being heavily depleted for many hours at a time. This I would call a success. If the defender moves too many flags into a town under heavy attack then they risk losing a whole sector of the map. This risk vs reward simply wasn't the case with a lower population because CRS felt unable to reduce the supply enough due(in part) to the already low ratios of certain equipment.

 

You keep insisting that those that feel TOEs should stay, need to come up with ideas to save them. Well I see several good suggestions above, so I ask you again: Do you not feel that some of the main issues have already been improved by a greater number of players? Given the serious needs across this game for modernisation/fixes etc that removal of TOEs should really be top of the list considering the extensive work involved?

 

As I said before, I like the idea of a small garrison supply to give variety to play, and most importantly, end pure softcaps as a thing.

I'd also like to see an end to the map edge cuts, or at least make flanking moves viable.

The HC interface needs to be more user friendly. And communication and organisational tools need to be introduced, in game.

I could go on. There ARE multiple things that can be improved.

 

No I don't feel player numbers have negated many of the issues TOEs bring to the table.  You still have the magical warp dynamic that helps kill game play at the tactical level.  You still have massive amounts of soft caps which are horrible for the game.  You still have HC that cannot man the system 24/7 causing catastrophic consequences on the map for one side or the other in a relatively short period of time.  You still have the complicated GUI that new users have to navigate through that generally is a result of the brigade system.  So no.  I don't feel numbers have addressed the issue with the system.

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Agree.

The brigade moves are just too tiring. Too much stuff to pay attention to with too limited tools. And all the while it distracts me from leading in the field.

 

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11 minutes ago, monsjoex said:

Agree.

The brigade moves are just too tiring. Too much stuff to pay attention to with too limited tools. And all the while it distracts me from leading in the field.

 

How would you feel about this though?

Or would you rather see town supply?  I guess what I am saying is are those who are not a fan of the current system willing to look at other options instead straight town supply?

Edited by saronin

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1 hour ago, king4t said:

Of course the problem is about supply. If each flag had 2 infantry in it then I wouldn't mind if the other HC moved in 100 flags. If each flag contained 100 heavy tanks, then it would likely be attack over if they moved 1 flag in. You get this concept, right?

 

Now, when there are only a couple of active AOs on the map this means that with very little risk, a HC can rotate in and out several divisions of supply every couple of hours. With enough AOs, it is possible to achieve targeted attrition of a whole area, to use AOs to pin enemy flags in place and force a situation whereby the local advantages of multiple links or a supply stack can be exploited.

 

With the greater numbers recently has come a boost to supply per flag. Yet not enough to prevent large areas from being heavily depleted for many hours at a time. This I would call a success. If the defender moves too many flags into a town under heavy attack then they risk losing a whole sector of the map. This risk vs reward simply wasn't the case with a lower population because CRS felt unable to reduce the supply enough due(in part) to the already low ratios of certain equipment.

We have a winner here.

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47 minutes ago, saronin said:

No I don't feel player numbers have negated many of the issues TOEs bring to the table. 

I didn't say negate, I said improved. But if you really see no improvement at all then fair enough.

47 minutes ago, saronin said:

  You still have the magical warp dynamic that helps kill game play at the tactical level. 

But it doesn't. You have to factor in the amount of supply that the enemy can bring to bear. As I said, with a greater number of players and AOs, it is much more possible to chose your AOs selectively so that the enemy cannot keep rotating in flags for hours. Your tactics must involve the overall stategy or else what improvement is offered over a shoebox shooter?
 

48 minutes ago, saronin said:

You still have HC that cannot man the system 24/7 causing catastrophic consequences on the map for one side or the other in a relatively short period of time.

Fair enough, it is a problem. Hopefully that too will lessen as new players get up to speed enough to help out in HC.

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1 hour ago, monsjoex said:

Agree.

The brigade moves are just too tiring. Too much stuff to pay attention to with too limited tools. And all the while it distracts me from leading in the field.

 

I think this is mainly due to how we actually use the system. At least as far back as I can remember on allied side the MOIC is everything. If he gets someone to cover air flags then that's a bonus. While this may not be true when morale is high and more are willing to join in, it almost inveriably is when morale is low and many heads go down. THIS, I would suggest, is what causes the biggest burnout of HCs.

 

One person can easily move the flags and check all supply, but not so easily if they are trying to be squad liaison, FB buster, MS setter, and general communicator. Even the best get tired doing all of that for 10 hours a day.

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15 minutes ago, king4t said:

I didn't say negate, I said improved. But if you really see no improvement at all then fair enough.

But it doesn't. You have to factor in the amount of supply that the enemy can bring to bear. As I said, with a greater number of players and AOs, it is much more possible to chose your AOs selectively so that the enemy cannot keep rotating in flags for hours. Your tactics must involve the overall stategy or else what improvement is offered over a shoebox shooter?
 

Fair enough, it is a problem. Hopefully that too will lessen as new players get up to speed enough to help out in HC.

I have offered by best attempt at fixing the issues below.  Supply generally should not just pop up in the middle of town.  Where possible it should be fielded.  Movement of supply is generally not a problem where no AOs exist but one mouse click can kill hours of work/victory on the battlefield.  That is a poor dynamic and it needs to be fixed.

 

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9 minutes ago, saronin said:

I have offered by best attempt at fixing the issues below.  Supply generally should not just pop up in the middle of town.  Where possible it should be fielded.  Movement of supply is generally not a problem where no AOs exist but one mouse click can kill hours of work/victory on the battlefield.  That is a poor dynamic and it needs to be fixed.

 

I know for a fact that loads of supply was driven from back or adjoining towns last campaign(post steam), by both sides. But if we want to eliminate any phantom movement of supply completely, then we are left with 3 options:

1. Lots of tedious driving which many will not enjoy doing.

2. A level of supply in each town sufficient to sustain/withstand a heavy attack lasting at least an hour. Basically full town supply, because we can't have magic flags that move.(btw if I get you correctly, you are picturing being able to amass a load of supply, then prevent your opponent from moving in enough to match it because you placed an AO. This would be a really bad idea)

3. A complete rewrite involving visible moving convoys, mobile FBs and meaningful movement through all that space between towns. ie 2.0

 

I do basically agree with your objection to magically appearing brigades. I suspect we'd all rather there was a more realistic system in place. I suggested many years ago that we have a resupply truck... Something big and noisy, but armored. It could represent say 10% of a flag if you can move it into it's new AB. It would be worth trying to stop or protect them. But it's coding time. As much as I'd love to see plans for and discuss major mechanics changes, I still get the impression we're firmly in the band aid stage. So for me, a SMALL garrison to lessen the boredom of softcapping seems like a realistic change while the other things you list like UI and squad/organisational tools are given priority to improve gameplay in the short term.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, king4t said:

I know for a fact that loads of supply was driven from back or adjoining towns last campaign(post steam), by both sides. But if we want to eliminate any phantom movement of supply completely, then we are left with 3 options:

1. Lots of tedious driving which many will not enjoy doing.

2. A level of supply in each town sufficient to sustain/withstand a heavy attack lasting at least an hour. Basically full town supply, because we can't have magic flags that move.(btw if I get you correctly, you are picturing being able to amass a load of supply, then prevent your opponent from moving in enough to match it because you placed an AO. This would be a really bad idea)

3. A complete rewrite involving visible moving convoys, mobile FBs and meaningful movement through all that space between towns. ie 2.0

 

I do basically agree with your objection to magically appearing brigades. I suspect we'd all rather there was a more realistic system in place. I suggested many years ago that we have a resupply truck... Something big and noisy, but armored. It could represent say 10% of a flag if you can move it into it's new AB. It would be worth trying to stop or protect them. But it's coding time. As much as I'd love to see plans for and discuss major mechanics changes, I still get the impression we're firmly in the band aid stage. So for me, a SMALL garrison to lessen the boredom of softcapping seems like a realistic change while the other things you list like UI and squad/organisational tools are given priority to improve gameplay in the short term.

 

 

If you read the thread that I linked you'll note that there absolutely is a counter to supply that is massed up after an AO is put down. Move all the supply you like into adjoining towns and use the FBs that are opened up. That basically puts you on similar footing as the attacker if the initial supply in town gets burned up. It extends the battle space from the attackers FB all the way to the friendly FB that leads to town. More opportunity to use more of the map. You'll notice that I also suggested a time limit of three hours and then all supply movement into the AO is freed up. That prevents all day AOs simply for the purpose of blocking supply movements.

I would love to see convoys and mobile FBs but I don't think that's in the cards for awhile. 

All the work with the GUI is flat out necessary. Training new people in the current GUI is painful. They may as well throw HC a bone if they are going to work on the GUI. 

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2 hours ago, saronin said:

You'll notice that I also suggested a time limit of three hours and then all supply movement into the AO is freed up

Resupply perhaps, but you don't mean swapping brigades? right?
I don't mind if Otto's resupply gets a 3 hour delay or runs as normal, because His rate is slow anyways, he will never put anything in fast enough to change the tide of battle.

Brigades flopping in? well no one really rolls up into a firefight and parks their Battalion at the base being shelled.

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1 hour ago, merlin51 said:

Resupply perhaps, but you don't mean swapping brigades? right?
I don't mind if Otto's resupply gets a 3 hour delay or runs as normal, because His rate is slow anyways, he will never put anything in fast enough to change the tide of battle.

Brigades flopping in? well no one really rolls up into a firefight and parks their Battalion at the base being shelled.

I ran through several iterations of how to deal with this problem with TOEs in place. The first was to completely lock out movement into an AO. The counter argument was that AOs would be put up just to block supply movement.  I thought of connecting timers to EWS and CP caps that would drop the AO if conditions weren't met after a certain period of time. In the end I think the solution presented is the simplest and easiest to code. It's not perfect in that you will still have situations where supply will just flop in. However, I think 3 hours is more than fair if an AO is being worked hard enough. It will create situations where supply needs to be driven from those friendly FBs and interdiction is in play. 

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6 hours ago, king4t said:

But it doesn't. You have to factor in the amount of supply that the enemy can bring to bear. As I said, with a greater number of players and AOs, it is much more possible to chose your AOs selectively so that the enemy cannot keep rotating in flags for hours. Your tactics must involve the overall stategy or else what improvement is offered over a shoebox shooter?

the resupply timers make killing off the entire map pointless. everything will be ok after TZ3

there's no consequence for endless rotations. "choosing AO's selectivly" limits the playable areas and forces us into the same towns for too long and too many times, it also forces most towns to be softcaps.

 

is @king4t a greentag?

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20 hours ago, saronin said:
20 hours ago, major0noob said:

undo changes...

just like the 09

Or we could think of a way forward...?

most of the changes introduced were just bad.

the explosion visual and audio effects, plane MG audio's, RPATS, grey-ing and desaturating every colour, bombing effects (as in the bombing game), nearly everything attached to timers, the M10 sight, etc

 

some things were fine till they were "fixed"

Edited by major0noob

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13 hours ago, merlin51 said:

Resupply perhaps, but you don't mean swapping brigades? right?
I don't mind if Otto's resupply gets a 3 hour delay or runs as normal, because His rate is slow anyways, he will never put anything in fast enough to change the tide of battle.

Brigades flopping in? well no one really rolls up into a firefight and parks their Battalion at the base being shelled.

Another potential advantage of using a movement timer for supply movement into an active AO is another string that CRS can pull for population balance. For over pop the timer is longer for under pop the timer is shorter. This would mean the under pop side has a longer window to work attrition than the over pop side be for supply can magically warp in. 

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