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Brigade Removal Frozen for Steam "Early Access"

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Kinda shocked with this news. TOEexit stoped????   :-D

Nah, talking seriously, I am not playing the game, no time for it but tbh I don't feel the call to catch me back. Still supporting it with my account tho.

Call me naive, but I see this situation like a good momentum for remaking the TOEs, not getting rid on them entirely. As @Capcosaid somewhere in this long thread and in some others where we shared ideas, maybe the good call from the begining would have been make adjustements to the current system and not going straigth into a revolution. Maybe it was a bridge to far? Maybe we set too high expectations?

- Adjust resupply timers

- Adjust flag moves timers (we need longer ones, front and backlines).

- Deny flag stacking forbiding moving more flags into an active DO (this, btw, would encourage the use of flank towns supply)

- Recode the fallback mecanichs to a point&click system for avoiding a lot of long and tedious moves (make managing the map easier for everyone, less intimidating, and maybe more people will step in for HC)

- etc. etc.

... And many other ideas are, imho, some good starting solutions for fixing some of the problems the TOEs have. I always was for trying these changes and monitor the outcomes closely before just go backwards to a pure town-based suppy system. Which, btw, had their flaws in the past too. Make adjustements first and see if system runs better and population (including HC the one) is more healthy. I'd bet for adding more content and fixes in every aspect of the game. I´d focus on adding, not removing.

I don't say CRS must abandon their plan. It is their plan and I respect it and I will stay with them despite I don't see the move as a good one (my subscription will always be there). But maybe we are facing a good chance for rethinking about a genuine, AFFORDABLE and realistic TOEs updrade.

Or even better: revisit the alternative I'd glad to see like a real one some day: an hybrid system, where all the towns on the map would have their based supply but we would also have movable flags with extra supply for making every map strategically unique. I don't see any other future than this, tbh. I cannot understand WWII ONLINE without that strategic layer. Tactics and field leadership are ok, but this game was more than that. Let's don't give up on that... Please.

See ya guys, at least from time to time.

S!

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And when there are no HC on or HC don't want to log in because their side is getting rolled, how do all these changes help?

Putting lipstick on a pig doesnt make the the pig more attractive.....

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Just now, Pittpete said:

And when there are no HC on or HC don't want to log in because their side is getting rolled, how do all these changes help?

Putting lipstick on a pig doesnt make the the pig more attractive.....

Never said these changes would fix all the problems, but it would make the system and frontline more STABLE than now, for sure. And maybe if we have that, we will have more numbers in HC. Does not worth a try at least?

Anyway, town based supply is not the magic solution for the "rolls" either... That's a pop imbalance/numbers problem. That's not about on the supply system, imo.

 

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From what I'm reading here, other than the same complaints there have always been about us-vs.-them being (freelancers vs HC guys), it seem's pretty clear that TOE complaints fall into 3 main categories...

1) Their management by too few and in some extremes an arguably un-trusted HC group, and no management at all in some cases when no HC is on...

This is the toughest nut to crack with requirements of an HC overhaul in regards to operations and responsibility as well as better UI tools making it easier and less dangerous to manage themselves and game logistics, and developement (the folks working on the tools) . The HC's were never meant to be some exclusive "old boys club" that ran the map. I am using that term loosely, because of the current us vs them mentality and the clear distrust some have always had about their membership. What confuses me is that THEY, are supposed to be YOU. As mentioned above, it was intended as a semi-historical orbat vehicle for the squads, each working together in their local area, to be able to recognize and promote the best field leaders that they liked fighting with or alongside to have more control over the planning and resources in the game. Noone had to join, but those that did were supposed to be the best the game had to offer by demonstration on the field and support of their peers, and it was initially designed so that there were mandatory CinC term limits that would allow for a slow but constant flow of fresh people from bottom to top.

I think if we can get the above back on track, the other part about no HC being on  to move things would be largely mitigated. 

That said, The TOE's should have NEVER been implemented without the ability of SOMEONE in the brigades or Kampfgruppes to be able to move them without having to go to friggin Comp Sci 101 to do so in the event no "official" HC's were on. That IMHO is probably the biggest mistake in their implementation, and one that if we are able to keep them, I hope can be addressed post haste.   

 2) Stacking them..

I am not so sure about not letting them move within close proximity to each other, But I can definitely agree with not allowing them to all be in the same CP.

3) They seem move too fast and be at strength too quickly after a move.

You can't completely negate one TOE coming to the support of another or you end the ability for historical tactical situations like "Patton's rescue of Bastogne", and the Allies response to the "Battle of the Bulge". That said, it should take awhile for that support in moving  to get there, and then be another good while before it is at full strength. The latter two seems like things we can work on right now if we could all agree on what those moving times and "full capacity" delays after a move should be...

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1 hour ago, vasduten1 said:

TOOLS, not RULES

With in game tools comes rules. 

Those tools effect a lot of players not just you or a certain squad. 

;)

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The trust in HC needs to be rebuilt.  

 

While it's true that there is no guarantee that an officer has a full understanding of the game, in my experience there are a much greater proportion of these folks in HC than in the general PB.  What I can tell you is that the majority of players do not know how to pick and choose the right AOs in the right order (along with about half of the current HCs, sadly...).  People might still have intense battles in a player-driven AO system, but soooooooooo many of them would be either meaningless or even disastrous.  Even with only 50% of HC knowing how to pick AOs properly, that's still a better number than any alternative put forth.  So the key to improvement is not a new AO system, but rather an improvement in the quality of the HC.  That's how trust will inevitably be rebuilt.  

 

NOTE: when someone is online as MOIC doing everything right, no one ever complains.  In fact people tend to play harder, stay logged on longer, and generally just have more fun than at any other time.  Period.  

 

There is a happy medium somewhere that still allows what I just said to happen, but also prevents the system from falling apart when that key individual is no longer online.  A predominantly town-based brigade system with supplemental, movable flags and an overhauled UI is that happy medium.  

 

HC will always have a place.  Just like Hatch said, these entities sprang into existence entirely out of necessity.  Getting rid of them will only lead to their recreation 6 months down the road (if the game even survives that long after no HC structure).  

 

The HC system is not a war against leadership.  It's the exact opposite.  It's not meant to restrict you, it's meant to empower you to do great things for many people.  I stay in AHC to foster the next group of leaders as best I can.  

 

For now, the focus is improving the current system before Steam Early Access.  The Rats have ideas on the table for C139 that I'm excited for, and the PB should be too, since these should alleviate some of the biggest TOEs complaints.

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31 minutes ago, HATCH said:

 

 2) Stacking them..

I am not so sure about not letting them move within close proximity to each other, But I can definitely agree with not allowing them to all be in the same CP.

3) They seem move too fast and be at strength too quickly after a move.

You can't completely negate one TOE coming to the support of another or you end the ability for historical tactical situations like "Patton's rescue of Bastogne", and the Allies response to the "Battle of the Bulge". That said, it should take awhile for that support in moving  to get there, and then be another good while before it is at full strength. The latter two seems like things we can work on right now if we could all agree on what those moving times and "full capacity" delays after a move should be...

The issue is that if you slow the movement of supply (including move and trickle) then TOE is too slow for an advancing playerbase (it already is).  

And you would have to slow it down significantly for HC to not keep up. If you slow down trickle timer i will simply move in a 2nd brigade earlier after a fight has started. And in general any slowdown basically just penalizes a bad move/a map mover not thinking 4 hours in advance. The need for a single map mover will increase even more.

I honestly don't see a solution to this other than making supply so slow that it basically becomes town supply... or simply introducing town supply again in the new way that is being worked on. (Not linked to ab's but a town based 'brigade' popping into existance).

Next to this, what problem is there with the players coming to the rescue with a tank column from 2 towns back.. rather than a guy simply moving supply with the click of a button? Or some new game mechanic where you could set FMS with paraplanes so you can literally glide in support?

Not that many players of the game seem interested in this whole "simulation of strategic supply movement" aspect that was introduced with TOE. They are more paying attention to the tactical fights (how to attack a town, which 2 towns should we hit now) and operational aspects(simply playing and shooting).

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7 hours ago, major0noob said:

1. game is desperate for HC, nonstop calls for applications

2. apply to HC

3. have sorties on the other side (not even the same camp)

4. never hear from them again...

5. nonstop calls for applications
 

If that happened that's ludicrous.  That's just not how it's supposed to go.  

 

In the past year CRS has loosened their restrictions on who can join HC, so this story goes entirely against the grain of that.  Not sure how this happened.  

 

Which HC was it, and at what time?

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4 minutes ago, Capco said:

There is a happy medium somewhere that still allows what I just said to happen, but also prevents the system from falling apart when that key individual is no longer online.  A predominantly town-based brigade system with supplemental, movable flags and an overhauled UI is that happy medium.  

HC will always have a place.  Just like Hatch said, these entities sprang into existence entirely out of necessity.  Getting rid of them will only lead to their recreation 6 months down the road (if the game even survives that long after no HC structure).  

The HC system is not a war against leadership.  It's the exact opposite.  It's not meant to restrict you, it's meant to empower you to do great things for many people.  I stay in AHC to foster the next group of leaders as best I can. 

Agree with hybrid system. 

And also think getting rid of ToE does not equate getting rid of HC at all.

AO's not being set by HC would technically do that, then you lose the overal strategic element. But don't we want the brigade oic's to set AO's anyhow? That also implies taking out the strategy to a certain degree.

Still have no answer for the AO problem other than that the current situation has not been good.

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2 hours ago, Pittpete said:

No disrespect but you were gone for almost 6 years due to your forum posting and your here beating the TOE drum?

I have a lot of blood sweat and tears invested in this game both in the AHC and behind the scenes. My absence was due to deployments and family issues related to deployments.


I am under no illusions that the current system is not with out fault. ToE's present certain challenges as they stand now and they need to be looked at. But your solution takes the bath water and throws it out with the baby. You can't just simply get rid of the HC's and then give the entire player base access to the tools that HC folks currently have, that would be insane. You also can't let large squads dictate the flow of the map. That is no different than what your complaining about  now with the HC's. 

The HC's are there to provide guidance and leadership. There given tools for this objective. It was never intended for the CiNC or Chief of Staff to sit at the map for 8 or more hours and move flags around and place AO's. That's the job of Brigade CO's and XO's and Division CO's and XO's with input from brigades and squads

The game has evolved a lot from when I was in the AHC, but the core purpose of the HC's should not change.

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1 minute ago, monsjoex said:

The issue is that if you slow the movement of supply (including move and trickle) then TOE is too slow for an advancing playerbase (it already is).  

And you would have to slow it down significantly for HC to not keep up. If you slow down trickle timer i will simply move in a 2nd brigade earlier after a fight has started. And in general any slowdown basically just penalizes a bad move/a map mover not thinking 4 hours in advance. The need for a single map mover will increase even more.

This is such short-sighted and incorrect thinking.  

 

First off, a major complaint of TOEs are the cutoffs/map rolls/aka game going too fast, not too slow Mons.  And a major selling point of 1.36 is to slow down the map, not speed it up....

 

The faster brigades move, the more intense the job is for an MOIC.  You can't slice it any other way.  Slowing down the timers will help a lot.  Once brigades are moved, the MOIC now has even longer in between moves to spawn in game, lead, and play.  

 

And in your example, it would be SO easy to take advantage of you if I was MOIC on the other side.  I'd just slap an AO down and wait for you to move your brigades out of position because of your reflex, then strike where you just weakened yourself.  Knowing you, you'd probably try to save that next AO by doing a North-South lineshift, giving you bad fallbacks elsewhere and a new AO to target.  

 

Brigade movement will follow the exact same pattern as before, because if you deviate from the gold standard, you will get punished.  That won't change.  

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I understand most of the positives and negatives about TOES and the current HC system....

 

16 minutes ago, Capco said:

NOTE: when someone is online as MOIC doing everything right, no one ever complains.  In fact people tend to play harder, stay logged on longer, and generally just have more fun than at any other time.  Period.

 When population is high and HC is logged in and working together, this game can be a spectacular site to witness and be part of.

 

58 minutes ago, HATCH said:

I think if we can get the above back on track, the other part about no HC being on  to move things would be largely mitigated. 

Yes, of course but how would you convince HC on the side being rolled to log in? This is when things seem to fall apart and side rolls are accelerated.Look at the last few campaigns for example, they rarely last a month.

25 minutes ago, Capco said:

HC will always have a place.  Just like Hatch said, these entities sprang into existence entirely out of necessity.  Getting rid of them will only lead to their recreation 6 months down the road (if the game even survives that long after no HC structure).

Yes, HC will always have a place

 

26 minutes ago, Capco said:

There is a happy medium somewhere that still allows what I just said to happen, but also prevents the system from falling apart when that key individual is no longer online.  A predominantly town-based brigade system with supplemental, movable flags and an overhauled UI is that happy medium

I suggested something like this previously. Sort of a hybrid system; but again its just adding more and more rules and coding changes, hence the lipstick on the pig comment i made. To continue down this road CRS is going to have to have HC in place 24 hours a day for this early Steam release to gain any headway. I also believe that squads are the best tool we have to retain the tons of new players expected to try the game in the upcoming weeks and months....

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24 minutes ago, E7usn said:

You can't just simply get rid of the HC's and then give the entire player base access to the tools that HC folks currently have, that would be insane. You also can't let large squads dictate the flow of the map. That is no different than what your complaining about  now with the HC's. 

Who said to get rid of HC? HC will always have a place/need in the game. A squad leader that can organize and grab 30 players on a mission is something i'd rather experience again, then some lil Johhny Nobody that keeps spamming on Side channel "P1 is town X, need trucks and Armor inbound" or "AO inbound on town X, go,go,go"

Edited by Pittpete

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16 minutes ago, Pittpete said:

I suggested something like this previously. Sort of a hybrid system; but again its just adding more and more rules and coding changes, hence the lipstick on the pig comment i made.

Imo, the key to a successful hybrid system is having the vast majority of the supply town-based and a VERY good UI that makes the (ideally much smaller) job of moving flags simple, straightforward, and ENTIRELY UNNECESSARY for the game to still function.  That last point is critical, or else it really is just lipstick on a pig.  Less is more here.  Stacking penalties would also need to be implemented, or else one side might just hold all their movable flags back for one massive push on a single target or area.  

 

And to your point about squads, I couldn't agree more.  The few HC that actually log on (I suck right now, I know...) have their hands full as is.  There is simply no room for training complete newbs, at least at this stage.  When my squad was in the training newbs program, I felt overwhelmed to the point where I just had to distance myself from the squad and focus on HC stuff.  

Edited by Capco
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The main problem is you need someone who knows how to position flags, move flags, and sees that in advance; taking into account their flags status (supply, timers, location) and taking into account the enemies flags status (supply, timers, location).  You also need to know the mechanics of moving, fallbacks etc.

You then also need people to lead and energize a side.

The best HC is able to do both, not sure there are many of them around.  imo you need a flag mover and people mover.

I've recently seen some great people movers, their choices of attacks and map strategy however is abysmal.  imo, they should be no where near the map in a moving sense.  BUT, they are great as content creators and energizing a side.  (and as a side note, for players logging in for an hour or two, this is all they really care about - heck with the map so to speak)

There are also some flag movers, that won't get cutoff, make sure supply is basically always available and systematically move the board like a chess game.  But, don't move the players per se.  With no direct criticism meant, I'd say very few current HC qualify as flag mover status - i.e they know/read a map well.

 

If either side gets a flag mover, and some population or leaders while the other side doesn't - map goes south quick.  Both sides need  a map mover on at all times - then, the game will reside on battles - not chess.  That is the issue as I see it.  And I don't think we can find enough players that know how to read a map and cover both sides at all times.

 

So, by eliminating this need- the flag movers - the game rests on leaders;  this is what town supply brings.  I'm totally for it now.

 

If the games population ever gets high enough, so both sides have a competent map mover on 24 hours a day, then TOE surely is a better way to go in the end.  Except - the terrible warp a flag in and ruin a great 3 hour battle of attrition.  Can you really move a regiment of army troops 10km in 1 hour during an active battle area?  I don't think so, but I don't know.  Maybe that can be modified so TOE works better.

 

For now, I'd say go with town supply; then add squad flags - that gives the variability and dynamics on the map, along with control by players.  Remove the 'map mover' role from the game for now.  These small supply flags would generate intel, recon and control for squads, but not take away from the main town battle focus. Oh, and the 'map movers'  would be the CO/XO moving their squad flags around.

Edited by delems
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My faith in High Command's role in WWII Online has never changed, I have said all along HC will have a place in the game and that the people who are (or have been) inside of the HC program are some of our best.

My faith in HC's ability to handle their insane work load is the only thing at question, and that is something that is not their fault that we have to fix.

That is the entire purpose of this whole initiative, other than of course ensuring that the players do not suffer and there is a fighting chance even in the most tough strategic situations. 

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3 hours ago, Capco said:

This is such short-sighted and incorrect thinking.  

First off, a major complaint of TOEs are the cutoffs/map rolls/aka game going too fast, not too slow Mons.  And a major selling point of 1.36 is to slow down the map, not speed it up....

The faster brigades move, the more intense the job is for an MOIC.  You can't slice it any other way.  Slowing down the timers will help a lot.  Once brigades are moved, the MOIC now has even longer in between moves to spawn in game, lead, and play.  

And in your example, it would be SO easy to take advantage of you if I was MOIC on the other side.  I'd just slap an AO down and wait for you to move your brigades out of position because of your reflex, then strike where you just weakened yourself.  Knowing you, you'd probably try to save that next AO by doing a North-South lineshift, giving you bad fallbacks elsewhere and a new AO to target.  

Brigade movement will follow the exact same pattern as before, because if you deviate from the gold standard, you will get punished.  That won't change.  

There's a difference between breakthroughs and simply advancing in a direction. The first one are too quick, the later are too slow. With town based supply you can continue attacking because with each capture you get a fresh town. 
Breakthroughs however would be less likely as every town you capture also makes it harder to attack since theres now 2-3 fresh enemy towns.

The example you give only shows that slowing down brigade moves would make things even more complicated.
Every move you make can lead to a big screw up, because you can not correct it quickly.
"Do i move the brigade in or not?"  Playerbase will always be dissatisfied. Town based supply simply exempts the HC from any blame and responsbility.

 

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We used to have town supply, and the problem was a fresh supply in each town, iirc. So we got the system we have now. I think Hatch is spot on with having people who are online when there are no HC on being able to do something with brigade movement. I am not a big fan of the system we have right now, it makes HC a hard job with no reward of actually playing the game. And we play the game to have fun. That being said, the supply side of the system we have is better than a fresh supply in every town(what we used to have). Maybe the simple solution is to have both, with a small supply pool for every town. I like the supply and brigade system, but needing HC to watch over it is asking a lot of a paying player. I think Hatch is onto something with having an HC less way of moving brigades. I just hope we can keep some kind of supply system. Either way, i'm going to keep playing, and I hope whatever they come up with makes most people happy and keeps the game going.

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9 hours ago, snappahead said:

We used to have town supply, and the problem was a fresh supply in each town, iirc. So we got the system we have now. I think Hatch is spot on with having people who are online when there are no HC on being able to do something with brigade movement. I am not a big fan of the system we have right now, it makes HC a hard job with no reward of actually playing the game. And we play the game to have fun. That being said, the supply side of the system we have is better than a fresh supply in every town(what we used to have). Maybe the simple solution is to have both, with a small supply pool for every town. I like the supply and brigade system, but needing HC to watch over it is asking a lot of a paying player. I think Hatch is onto something with having an HC less way of moving brigades. I just hope we can keep some kind of supply system. Either way, i'm going to keep playing, and I hope whatever they come up with makes most people happy and keeps the game going.

What were bad characteristics of fresh supply in every town?

1 thing i remember is that ciney would fall 6 times a day due to the defender having 1 ab and the attacker 3 ab's. But was that really that bad? At least it gave you a feel of achievement when you captured it.

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56 minutes ago, monsjoex said:

What were bad characteristics of fresh supply in every town?

1 thing i remember is that ciney would fall 6 times a day due to the defender having 1 ab and the attacker 3 ab's. But was that really that bad? At least it gave you a feel of achievement when you captured it.

OMG LOL YES!!  I had almost forgotten about that but that town was never the only town that traded on a almost daily basis..   And the old Tienengrad.. will we see it again?

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5 minutes ago, stankyus said:

OMG LOL YES!!  I had almost forgotten about that but that town was never the only town that traded on a almost daily basis..   And the old Tienengrad.. will we see it again?

These were all great places to fight, and the back and forth was pretty awesome.

 

All sorts of great action!!!

 

 

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How feasable would it be to restructure the ui so each town owned by a side was listed alphabetically and assigned a flag of supply ? When you take a new town, the ui adds it to the list for the side and drops division tienen in? You lose the town and it disappears.

For ao's, I think the best way would be to link missions in. You create a mission and when 10 people join it enables the leader to place an active ao. 

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