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XOOM

Brigade Removal Frozen for Steam "Early Access"

514 posts in this topic

On 6/4/2017 at 3:54 AM, HATCH said:

Says who? IMHO that seems to be a rather short sighted and one sided perspective that I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree on. The FPS should be able to enjoy themselves fighting alongside the "official" brigades, or on their own between them using the local garrisons... <snip>

I don't think that there can be two sides to this because its a simple concept. The MMOFPS aspect has the greatest appeal. Did the TOE system bring lots of subscribers to the game? I see FPS tanks, infantry, and aircraft everywhere in the promotional material while flag movement is barely mentioned. If tacking grand strategy mechanics on to your product resulted in $$$ I could understand keeping it at this point.

 

New players needed a button to click to find the action not an elaborate command and supply system. Right now the team with the weaker unofficial organization (a formal way to say squads) still gets stomped anyway. I'd also say that attempts to use TOE to compensate for the lack of unofficial organization had disastrous results for both gameplay and player numbers.

On 6/4/2017 at 3:54 AM, HATCH said:

First of all, the HC' positions above division shouldn't even be worried about the TOE/brigades in an individual sense. All they should be doing is coordinating weekly battle plans, discussing current objectives and/or tactical retreats with their peers and passing along what everyone else is doing down to their chain of command <snip>

What HC should or shouldn't be is irrelevant at this point because you guys are stuck with what it is. This is the system that you're going to release on Steam with. Keeping TOE is a strong vote of confidence in the playerbase to staff and keep HC working but you're still staking the success of your product on a group of volunteers.

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The key point you are missing david (and mons, and vas) is that HC and movable flags (aka no town-based supply) can create meaningful action for everyone.  

 

There is nothing meaningful about having Ciney change hands 6 times a day.  This doesn't happen in the current system because how the attrition factor is modeled (in other words, you don't get brand new supply after taking a town).  

 

That's one of the main selling points of this game:  you don't just log into a 64 player server and knock your head against the wall for 30 minutes at a time with FPS action, just to rinse and repeat.  We have campaigns.  

 

During the months-long campaigns we have, the battles we fight, the ground we take, the supply we destroy has MEANING.  You can log off at the end of the night and say to yourself, "I did something good for my team and improved our chance of victory."

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26 minutes ago, david01 said:

What HC should or shouldn't be is irrelevant at this point because you guys are stuck with what it is. This is the system that you're going to release on Steam with. Keeping TOE is a strong vote of confidence in the playerbase to staff and keep HC working but you're still staking the success of your product on a group of volunteers.

A group of volunteers in a system that has been around for dam near 16 years and a game built around it.

I'm ok with that ^_^

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4 hours ago, Capco said:

The key point you are missing david (and mons, and vas) is that HC and movable flags (aka no town-based supply) can create meaningful action for everyone.  

 

There is nothing meaningful about having Ciney change hands 6 times a day.  This doesn't happen in the current system because how the attrition factor is modeled (in other words, you don't get brand new supply after taking a town).  

 

That's one of the main selling points of this game:  you don't just log into a 64 player server and knock your head against the wall for 30 minutes at a time with FPS action, just to rinse and repeat.  We have campaigns.  

 

During the months-long campaigns we have, the battles we fight, the ground we take, the supply we destroy has MEANING.  You can log off at the end of the night and say to yourself, "I did something good for my team and improved our chance of victory."

The post of the day.

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My hope:  that every single person advocating for TOEs/Orbats/etc is *currently* an active member in today's respective HC. 

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12 hours ago, forrest said:

My hope:  that every single person advocating for TOEs/Orbats/etc is *currently* an active member in today's respective HC. 

With the best of my tones, let me say :) :

I don't know if it could be fair if my "hope" were to see the town-based supply supporters to manually spawn their toys from rear/flank towns and not using the fresh supply from AB when a new flag comes into the town... According to this way of thinking of measuring the people's coherence, that should be their only way to act ingame, isn't it?

I've always been cautious with that line of argumentation, and I advise everyone to be so. Because facts or events are not always the best way to rank the validity of a point/argument. Points or ideas are valid/invalid by themselves in most of the cases.

It's like asking players who could agree the Matty is an almost unkillable SOB to never use it ingame; or refusing to use the zookas/shrecks because they are meant to be killing the tanking game; or not to warp to a CP because is magic and "unrealistic"; or not flying RAF because it is supousdely the easy mode...

I can understand your/their opinion is different than mine in this or that matter, whatever, but that's different than what the game offers and, factually, allow us to choose to do. Same applies to HC/TOEs. Because being HC or not is an option, not a mandatory action, and that is aside any opinion about TOEs.

And just in case: not playing the game atm but my HC service record for the good of this game has always been more than filled, imho.

Edited by erasmo
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17 hours ago, erasmo said:

There is nothing meaningful about having Ciney change hands 6 times a day.  This doesn't happen in the current system because how the attrition factor is modeled (in other words, you don't get brand new supply after taking a town).  

There is also nothing meaningful about having to drive a Matty or Char from 1 or 2 towns back because supply is getting low. You talk about wanting fast action driving supply from rear towns is the antithesis of fast action. 

It takes over an hour to drive some tanks in from FRONT LINE towns with no FB.

No thanks.

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21 hours ago, Capco said:

The key point you are missing david (and mons, and vas) is that HC and movable flags (aka no town-based supply) can create meaningful action for everyone.  

Meaningful gameplay  like logging in two hours after  defending a town all night to see that the flags have all gone... TO TRAINING?!?!?!? Because someone wasn't there to manually set fallbacks? Seriously. Meaningful gameplay  is something that is going to exist if systems are in place to manage the map without a frigging volunteer army.

There is nothing meaningful about having Ciney change hands 6 times a day.  This doesn't happen in the current system because how the attrition factor is modeled (in other words, you don't get brand new supply after taking a town).  

It doesn't happen 6 times a day, but it still happens. Attrition only works a third of the time. Move a flag back, let it replenish for 12 hours and then when you're out of supply, move the new one in. That's what people don't like. 

That's one of the main selling points of this game:  you don't just log into a 64 player server and knock your head against the wall for 30 minutes at a time with FPS action, just to rinse and repeat.  We have campaigns.  

Agreed, wholeheartedly. It just doesn't need to be entirely dependent on a barely connected volunteer network fumbling with command duties 24/7. I'd support a hybrid system that gives extra supply where needed, and at the command of these armchair generals... but I also want to be able to spawn in a town that's being softcapped and be able to fight without having to drive a truck there... since my side OWNS it already. 

During the months-long campaigns we have, the battles we fight, the ground we take, the supply we destroy has MEANING.  You can log off at the end of the night and say to yourself, "I did something good for my team and improved our chance of victory."

The supply would mean OH so much more if it was truly something that could be depleted when a town gets hit for two hours straight. But please... go on and tell us how awesome and effective RDP raiding is and how the flags system doesn't alienate the entire ingame playerbase with sheer idiocy when no HC are on. 

 

I don't disagree with you on a hybrid system. I don't propose we just throw the baby out with the bathwater, though babies are gross little things that are endlessly demanding and crap themselves routinely. I just want some solid tweaks to the supply system with a solid set of tools for HC or nominated players to use for a chance to succeed. I want RDP to matter, and there to be incentive to even fly for two hours on autopilot when I could be enjoying gameplay instead.

 

 

 

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You talk about wanting fast action driving supply from rear towns is the antithesis of fast action. 

Some of my best memories come from driving up supply from rear towns hoping we would get there in time to save the town or turn the tide in an attack.

Also had down time to get to know others on TS and laughed and told stories with squadmates. 

Trying to stay hidden from bombers patrolling the roads interdicting supply was nerve racking. The pesky ATG's set up for ambushes were no joy either but the adrenal rush can't be compared to the way i feel in today's game of swapping Brigades and ADDers.

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30 minutes ago, Pittpete said:

Some of my best memories come from driving up supply from rear towns hoping we would get there in time to save the town or turn the tide in an attack.

Also had down time to get to know others on TS and laughed and told stories with squadmates. 

Trying to stay hidden from bombers patrolling the roads interdicting supply was nerve racking. The pesky ATG's set up for ambushes were no joy either but the adrenal rush can't be compared to the way i feel in today's game of swapping Brigades and ADDers.

that or get in behind the enemy and pop them from the rear.   Personally I used to enjoy being towed between towns as an ATG and killing entire convoys of players who didn't bother to do anything but drive down the road at top speed. 

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7 hours ago, erasmo said:

With the best of my tones, let me say :) :

I don't know if it could be fair if my "hope" were to see the town-based supply supporters to manually spawn their toys from rear/flank towns and not using the fresh supply from AB when a new flag comes into the town... According to this way of thinking of measuring the people's coherence, that should be their only way to act ingame, isn't it?

No.  Straw-Man argument fail.

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I have only been back a few days and frankly this news is devastating, I'm not clear if this is a complete reversal or just a pause can i get some clarification please?

Going back to town based supply is critical to the game getting back to what made it good and popular, a full pause and reversal would be a very bad move.

Im already shocked at how poor the game play has become with the new fortress FRU, i cant understand the logic behind there introduction, they took a good step removing inf placed FRU which created spawn points anywhere and everywhere, and recreated the front line and ability for units to move and flank, this was then reversed with the introduction of the new FRU, which recreated this FRU's everywhere and random spawns all over the place, battles are back to head to head slug outs, you are forced to sit at the edge of towns and just shoot, no freedom of movement at all.  But that is for another topic i need to start.

My point is there is a worrying trend developing that the Rats fix something for the better or plan to then either change that effect for the worse or pull back from doing what they said they would.

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Whilst TOE's did not necersarilybring new players, it stabalised the games population.

It became a true wargame, not an FPS of take town rinse repeat without any higher functioning.

The question to ask is why did it stabalise the population rather than destroy it?

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On 6/4/2017 at 1:14 PM, monsjoex said:

Not that many players of the game seem interested in this whole "simulation of strategic supply movement" aspect that was introduced with TOE. They are more paying attention to the tactical fights (how to attack a town, which 2 towns should we hit now) and operational aspects(simply playing and shooting).

THIS is 100% a correct observation of the player base.  

Personally, I'm more interested in HOW to attack a town. I don't care which town it is. 

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I think that town supply had better gameplay but the more relevant thing about it here it that it doesn't require constant (and equally-skilled) administration. It also scales far better up and down with population. There's always something for customers to spawn somewhere, and it just doesn't fail catastrophically like TOE does.

 

There's no rational reason for a tiny software company to keep the system unless they magically fixed something about it to not make it so personnel-intensive.

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3 hours ago, E7usn said:

There is also nothing meaningful about having to drive a Matty or Char from 1 or 2 towns back because supply is getting low. You talk about wanting fast action driving supply from rear towns is the antithesis of fast action. 

It takes over an hour to drive some tanks in from FRONT LINE towns with no FB.

No thanks.

There was nothing fancy about driving up 2 towns to the front line.  However that's like saying its tastes like an apple without saying what a apple tastes like and why you like it.  Its anticeptic. What made rear supply and overstocking so excellent is that squads would move supply up for overstock for an up and coming attack. It was thrilling to do your part. It was also a great time BSing around with them, not laborious but fun. It was a form of ownership in the game.  At times you would have some of the most EPIC tank battles in the process. Ones I remember today as still the most EPIC ever, one in particular of about 60-80 Axis tank column I was in in the middle of no mans land between two cities going up a hill when at the top of the crest came a Sherman... and 4 more and they stopped dead in their tracks as we did... then the crest of the hill 800m away about 40 Shermans, 20 M10s and other tanks... The battle lasted mb 15 minutes max for about 4 hours of resupply. Everyone was thrilled and we laughed about it on TS and talked about how EPIC it was.  The other side is when you have a plane that just overflew and 40 tank, tank column and yells over side chat! "Massive tank column headed to Ciney!!!" Everyone rushes to meet them head on baby.. its that broken arrow moment. That is what rear town supply is and overstock... its not simply moving supply forward laboriously.

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One thing to consider is that instead of totally new supply when a town is taken HC is going to have to determine what (allied) side they will put into the town or it defaults.  I think that a possibly good solution would be to move (HC) the existing supply from the attacking town into the new town. The rear town does goes on the fill town supply timer say 6 hours and the move supply tickets are set for 8 hours. HC could be used this way and we don't get insta supply anymore unless its manually restocked.

 

EDIT: OR automatically the brigades name/town (what ever the structure is similar to what we have here, IE 33.3 orderd to take Ciney but instead its Schilde ordered to take Antwerp Shildes supply  moves in) that AO'd the town after its taken is automatically moved in with its existing supply.

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10 minutes ago, stankyus said:

There was nothing fancy about driving up 2 towns to the front line.  However that's like saying its tastes like an apple without saying what a apple tastes like and why you like it.  Its anticeptic. What made rear supply and overstocking so excellent is that squads would move supply up for overstock for an up and coming attack. It was thrilling to do your part. It was also a great time BSing around with them, not laborious but fun. It was a form of ownership in the game.  At times you would have some of the most EPIC tank battles in the process. Ones I remember today as still the most EPIC ever, one in particular of about 60-80 Axis tank column I was in in the middle of no mans land between two cities going up a hill when at the top of the crest came a Sherman... and 4 more and they stopped dead in their tracks as we did... then the crest of the hill 800m away about 40 Shermans, 20 M10s and other tanks... The battle lasted mb 15 minutes max for about 4 hours of resupply. Everyone was thrilled and we laughed about it on TS and talked about how EPIC it was.  The other side is when you have a plane that just overflew and 40 tank, tank column and yells over side chat! "Massive tank column headed to Ciney!!!" Everyone rushes to meet them head on baby.. its that broken arrow moment. That is what rear town supply is and overstock... its not simply moving supply forward laboriously.

I remember that back then.......I was always perusing the main roads for columns to bomb.  You were almost certain to see 3-4 tanks moving along the road every attack every so often.  i knew it was going to take place so I hunted them.

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On 6/5/2017 at 9:14 PM, Capco said:

The key point you are missing david (and mons, and vas) is that HC and movable flags (aka no town-based supply) can create meaningful action for everyone.  

 

There is nothing meaningful about having Ciney change hands 6 times a day.  This doesn't happen in the current system because how the attrition factor is modeled (in other words, you don't get brand new supply after taking a town).  

That's one of the main selling points of this game:  you don't just log into a 64 player server and knock your head against the wall for 30 minutes at a time with FPS action, just to rinse and repeat.  We have campaigns.  

During the months-long campaigns we have, the battles we fight, the ground we take, the supply we destroy has MEANING.  You can log off at the end of the night and say to yourself, "I did something good for my team and improved our chance of victory."

The supply you destroy currently has very little meaning. It did have meaning the short period where the old team turned down supply levels and upped the resupply delays. But people got angry because that also meant there was no supply on a -global- level. While with a town based system it is much easier to have local attrition, but sufficient global supply. 7 divisions (with fewer brigades) lead to breakthroughs, 9 divisions leads to practically unlimited supply in a single town.

A perfect example is AA'ing in a single town. You can shoot down 40 bombers, it doesn't matter because you can rotate the entire side's air supply through this single airfield. With local supply, attriting an airfield can have a big local impact.

TOE /= Campaigns. We had campaigns before, and the concept of campaigns in BE is that there is a very slowly moving frontline for around 30 days leading to a win for 1 of the sides. Kind of like these castle building browser games, you start in a specific server and after 1-3 months it's done. That's your strategic element and it doesn't go away with town based supply. If you fight over Ciney 1 day and see that overnight you actually managed to hold it thats a great thing!

Don't get me wrong btw, hybrid system is the way to go, but I rather go back to town based first then work 2 years on the perfect hybrid system. Many different strategy layers can be implemented on top of town based supply, it doesn't have to be another iteration of the current game mechanic.

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11 minutes ago, bmw said:

I remember that back then.......I was always perusing the main roads for columns to bomb.  You were almost certain to see 3-4 tanks moving along the road every attack every so often.  i knew it was going to take place so I hunted them.

Way back the 110c could flame A13s, I ran over a 30+ A13 column rolling down a river road in my 110 (had been playing for a year or so) and called it out, many 110s showed up on scene and we absolutely massacred them... however later I was running an attack of about 30 or so PzHs and got seen by a havoc - IIRC it was tuomin he one dropped killed a squaddie but it was not long till the Dambusters showed up and destroyed half our column so when we got to town we ran into a 6pdr screen that blew us to shreds. That was the first or second campaign featuring the 6pdrs.. I think it was the first because IIRC I had not run into them yet for some reason.

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36 minutes ago, david01 said:

I think that town supply had better gameplay but the more relevant thing about it here it that it doesn't require constant (and equally-skilled) administration. It also scales far better up and down with population. There's always something for customers to spawn somewhere, and it just doesn't fail catastrophically like TOE does.

 

There's no rational reason for a tiny software company to keep the system unless they magically fixed something about it to not make it so personnel-intensive.

No one can refute that the TOEs is too labor intensive to function 24/7 in the game's current state of health.  I think a hybrid system would also scale better, always have something to spawn, and wouldn't fail catastrophically like TOEs does now.  

 

I'm just happy that most of you are totally on board with a hybrid system.  It seems CRS has a few Rats that will champion the best parts of TOEs going forward for 1.36.  Even if the first iteration doesn't have movable supply, I think we've sold our case well.  

 

S!

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22 minutes ago, monsjoex said:

The supply you destroy currently has very little meaning. It did have meaning the short period where the old team turned down supply levels and upped the resupply delays. But people got angry because that also meant there was no supply on a -global- level. While with a town based system it is much easier to have local attrition, but sufficient global supply. 7 divisions (with fewer brigades) lead to breakthroughs, 9 divisions leads to practically unlimited supply in a single town.

A perfect example is AA'ing in a single town. You can shoot down 40 bombers, it doesn't matter because you can rotate the entire side's air supply through this single airfield. With local supply, attriting an airfield can have a big local impact.

TOE /= Campaigns. We had campaigns before, and the concept of campaigns in BE is that there is a very slowly moving frontline for around 30 days leading to a win for 1 of the sides. Kind of like these castle building browser games, you start in a specific server and after 1-3 months it's done. That's your strategic element and it doesn't go away with town based supply. If you fight over Ciney 1 day and see that overnight you actually managed to hold it thats a great thing!

Don't get me wrong btw, hybrid system is the way to go, but I rather go back to town based first then work 2 years on the perfect hybrid system. Many different strategy layers can be implemented on top of town based supply, it doesn't have to be another iteration of the current game mechanic.

If attrition isn't working now, the fix before 1.36 is to reduce the supply per brigade, lengthen trickle timers, and lower the resupply timers to 8 hours.  That way it's possible to run out of supply in an area, but not on a global level (since it's impossible to burn through 9 divisions in 8 hours in lieu of RDP bombing).  I admit that attrition will be simpler in 1.36 but that alone is not justification for it since attrition is fixable now.  

 

In your AA example, if an entire side's airforce was rotated through a single airfield for a single town, that would leave no bomber supply elsewhere on the map for 15 hours.  For one town.  That's pretty silly and is going to get you in a heap of trouble.  It's also against air officer SOP and is exactly why air officers should manage air supply and not ground guys.  Your example does illustrate a positive of TOEs though:  that of buffering and unbuffering airfield so that supply cannot be rotated.  That's an excellent example of how TOEs can provide strategic MEANING to specific tactical engagements.  

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There's no point to a hybrid system if you're still going to need to have HC online to properly manage supply 24/7.

 

There's also no solid concept of a hybrid system nor coherent interim plan. Tweak some values with TOE, release on Steam, and then implement some hybrid system a year or so down the line? If some tweaks could alleviate the problem of TOE then they would have been done already. All manner of tweaks have been tried in the past.

 

I think that if CRS even keeps anything close to the current system they're going to run out of HC again (if they haven't already). 

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4 hours ago, david01 said:

There's no point to a hybrid system if you're still going to need to have HC online to properly manage supply 24/7.

Of course.  That's why the hybrid system would have to be predominantly town-based.  The correct hybrid would not need to have HC manage the supplemental supply and the game would still function; it would only be a bonus, not a detriment.  That is entirely in the realm of possibilities.  

 

And there are still simple tweaks on the board that haven't ever been touched in TOEs history.  Why they have never been tried in the past is a reflection of the stubbornness of old CRS.  I'm not saying TOEs is savable in lieu of a miracle, but if CRS needs time these tweaks may buy them that time.  

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*** In your AA example, if an entire side's airforce was rotated through a single airfield for a single town, that would leave no bomber supply elsewhere on the map for 15 hours

It is impossible to attrit air in this game.  There are more aircraft in 10 days in our game, then the entire german LW, of every aircraft type, had during the entire war.

After rotating flag after flag into the nearest AF to support the AO, when the AO moves, you'd just start moving all those flags to the next AF that is closest to the AO.  It is impossible to attrit air (destroyers too fyi, just to throw navy a bone)

There is no question in my mind anymore that TOE needs to be removed asap and we need to move to town supply - sure, I abhor it on many levels, but the current way is totally failing.

Edited by delems

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