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Brigade Removal Frozen for Steam "Early Access"

514 posts in this topic

10 minutes ago, delems said:

There is no question in my mind anymore that TOE needs to be removed asap and we need to move to town supply - sure, I abhor it on many levels, but the current way is totally failing.

We all......or at least most of us know this but it's not coming anytime soon so we are still stuck with what we have.  If I had to guess we are still 6 months out from 1.36 based on all I have heard and seen.

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18 hours ago, david01 said:

I think that town supply had better gameplay but the more relevant thing about it here it that it doesn't require constant (and equally-skilled) administration. It also scales far better up and down with population. There's always something for customers to spawn somewhere, and it just doesn't fail catastrophically like TOE does.

 

There's no rational reason for a tiny software company to keep the system unless they magically fixed something about it to not make it so personnel-intensive.

This, so much.

 

It's just too labor intensive for online gamers and even if you're a casual HC player, eventually you'll get stuck staring at the map screen jumping from channel to channel asking people where they need what. It's a whole layer of suck that in it's best case removes only two player from active participation in the actual fighting, in the worst case nobody is moving anything and it all collapses.

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17 hours ago, Capco said:

No one can refute that the TOEs is too labor intensive to function 24/7 in the game's current state of health.  I think a hybrid system would also scale better, always have something to spawn, and wouldn't fail catastrophically like TOEs does now.  

 

I'm just happy that most of you are totally on board with a hybrid system.  It seems CRS has a few Rats that will champion the best parts of TOEs going forward for 1.36.  Even if the first iteration doesn't have movable supply, I think we've sold our case well.  

 

S!

It needs to be built on town supply, and not have anything pertaining to "training" areas. The current ToEs system is not only failing in the current game state, it was failing even when we had big HC teams working on it. 

Even at its height, it still allowed for magic swap and if for some reason the server had to come down, whoever was server jockeying at the moment would be forced to reset towns mostly owned and then... ALL the flags were full again.

 

I'd love to see people communicating about columns of tanks rolling to either attack or resupply and I think there has been a huge hole left in the air game when we all of a sudden got the ability to just click and drag entire brigades.

 

My favorite moments in this game came well before ToEs, where even a small part of the squad you were in, (say on a weekday afternoon when not a lot were on,) could grab a light tank, a half track and a few 88s and just set up ambushes.

We'd chat with LW, and get reports, then assemble our team to interdict. 

We can't interdict someone right-clicking on a town's name, selecting "move here".

 

Got to be town based, as if the division's components have needs to garrison, as they mostly did IRL. Nobody ever just moved brigades or whole divisions without having a logistic link and the support to actually move all of those men and gear.

 

What if there were movable parts of town supply that only allowed for say, 15% of a town's supply to go via "quick orders"?

It would give HC the ability to strengthen towns that needed it as long as they were close enough, linking CPs aside, because linking CPs?!?!? What, you can't order a dozen tanks to drive there without first owning one building?!?!?! Come on.

 

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17 minutes ago, vasduten1 said:

This, so much.

 

It's just too labor intensive for online gamers and even if you're a casual HC player, eventually you'll get stuck staring at the map screen jumping from channel to channel asking people where they need what. It's a whole layer of suck that in it's best case removes only two player from active participation in the actual fighting, in the worst case nobody is moving anything and it all collapses.

HC is another total different game.  I was thinking about doing HC for a bit a couple of years ago and was discussing what our HC should do over TS, to me it looked advantageous until Catfive piped up and in fact if we did move that way it was potentially catastrophic. It took a while for me to absorb what he was talking about but once I understood with about 5 minutes of back and forth.. he was correct in spades. He could see two moves ahead in a instance.  People who can see two moves ahead are map movers and we have had very few who can see two or even three moves ahead. All it takes is one side who can see two moves ahead and the otherside who had HC that can see mb the next move it can be really taxing on the PB right up to the point there is no supply due to attrition or cut off.  While I can see the romantic portion of a game of Generals in reality a game of generals or lack there of has a much bigger impact on the majority of the non HC players.  IMHO a game of generals would be much better served on the squad level where Squad leaders are the Generals, XOs are the colonels and HC are the 2-5 star generals. 

There are 2 types of leaders in the game and by far the most influential onces have always been those who the pb follow HC/Squad leaders (IE Dinker, Engine2 for instance)  and the other who ever sets the AOs.  What keeps the PB in general happy is supply, we came here for the most part to shoot things.  Town based supply worked well this way because if supply was a issue the regular PB could do something about it and squad led supply routes meant non-hc  squad leaders could be responsible for their own supply needs.  I really think we have dumbed down the game somewhat.  There is really no attrition anymore and in order to attrit you have to hold the linking cps so attrition is usually great right up to the point you lose those links.  There really is no plan except set FMS, run to town and try to cap a spawn and flood.  The plans used to be, squads 1 and 2 grab supply from Y town, Squad 3 can you set up flak trap etc.. very little in the way of that these days.  It might have been cumbersome but getting rid of these elements really got rid of the glue that holds squads together.  It gave them more reason to stay together because a squad could be responsible for many things like epic battles due to overstock efforts or a relief column that saves the day.

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There is no doubt that town supply adds a whole other strategic layer to the game.  I too love town supply and the fact that it can be indicted while trying to resupply a besieged town. My point is that you can't have fast action AND town supply. There has to be a happy medium. 

We have people saying that the new people are not going to like slogging for towns. I personally like long drawn out battles.  What I don't like and what town supply can bring is the changing of a towns flag several times. 


This is one of those issues that is pretty complex. WE want new people to invest in the game. To join the hC's and all of us want to participate in HUGE battles for towns. 

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10 minutes ago, E7usn said:

There is no doubt that town supply adds a whole other strategic layer to the game.  I too love town supply and the fact that it can be indicted while trying to resupply a besieged town. My point is that you can't have fast action AND town supply. There has to be a happy medium. 

We have people saying that the new people are not going to like slogging for towns. I personally like long drawn out battles.  What I don't like and what town supply can bring is the changing of a towns flag several times. 


This is one of those issues that is pretty complex. WE want new people to invest in the game. To join the hC's and all of us want to participate in HUGE battles for towns. 

Fast action is more connected to having the FMS.. don't see the connection you are making with fast action and town supply.. mb I'm not understanding can you elaborate? Did we not used to use the map and click the town then select the depot or AB to spawn from prior?  Now you have to click the map, find the brigade in the town, go to brigade screen, click the town to open the map then click the cp or ab to get to the mission screen. That adds MORE complexity for new players.

 

People like fast battles and drawn out slogs... not always a slog drawn out battles.  However with town supply and overstock the pb can determine or have a determining factor with THEIR own efforts on a much larger scale.  Its much better to be on defense and have a drawn out battle, its a fun defensive battle type because you are winning in its own way by denying the attacker of a quick victory.  I find it much more fun to have a faster attack battle because the action is very fast in town instead of run, die respawn, rinse and repeat over and over again. 

 

Changing of towns over and over again had more to due with links that formed bottlenecks.  Those towns had a great strategic importance and its ability to bottleneck an advancing force. Again it came down to the PB to secure where squads played a huge part. In order to break through a bottle neck it required time and resources to take and hold then move in resources and capture the next link ASAP.  Please note that some of the bottlenecks are specific to River towns and now with bridge blowing and the FMS bottleneck towns are not so vulnerable... but bottlenecks are not just a battle for a town, its a battle for a series of towns and THAT aspect I think is superior to having the current strategic towns like Liege, Antwerp, and Brussels be only determined by how many brigades you can afford to stack there. Towns have almost NO importance without supply anymore... bottlenecks are not bottlenecks if the only supply is a navy for defense and NO HC to move in a infantry brigade.  Its cap a cp, wait for timers and take the docks.

 

Is there a way to hybrid the system, I think there is which would add much more fidelity to the game.

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What is 2 AOs now, about 60 per side?

 

Lets say 10 are flying, leaving 50 on the ground. 

 

Knowing everyones love of defense, the two DOs will probably draw about half the remaining players, leaving 25 for attacking 2 AOs.

 

If we HC can manage to herd enough to cats to the P1, that's barely enough for a proper critical mass at a single AO. 

 

And you all want to add jobs where 5-10 of you go off and do your own thing 2 miles out of town?

 

Come on now...

Edited by Capco
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55 minutes ago, Capco said:

What is 2 AOs now, about 60 per side?

 

Lets say 10 are flying, leaving 50 on the ground. 

 

Knowing everyones love of defense, the two DOs will probably draw about half the remaining players, leaving 25 for attacking 2 AOs.

 

If we HC can manage to herd enough to cats to the P1, that's barely enough for a proper critical mass at a single AO. 

 

And you all want to add jobs where 5-10 of you go off and do your own thing 2 miles out of town?

 

Come on now...

The HC's inability to effectively manage the playerbase is the main reason why TOE should be removed in favor of a simpler system.

 

If simply getting enough people to show up at a designated AO during high pop is pushing the limits of the HC's abilities then I don't think that making them responsible for all supply management on the map 24/7 is a good idea. Some HC have been able to do it, but it's so much work that it's a 2nd job and on par with a paid position rather than something you must pay for. I could have sworn the original CRS announcement about removing TOE said something about allowing HC to focus on leading and organizing players instead of watching flags.

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2 hours ago, E7usn said:

There is no doubt that town supply adds a whole other strategic layer to the game.  I too love town supply and the fact that it can be indicted while trying to resupply a besieged town. My point is that you can't have fast action AND town supply. There has to be a happy medium. 

We have people saying that the new people are not going to like slogging for towns. I personally like long drawn out battles.  What I don't like and what town supply can bring is the changing of a towns flag several times. 


This is one of those issues that is pretty complex. WE want new people to invest in the game. To join the hC's and all of us want to participate in HUGE battles for towns. 

Please, DO tell us about how much fast action there is in a town that's being softcapped and the closest town is a 15 minute drive away, or worse... two towns away.

 

Go on, we'll listen.

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34 minutes ago, david01 said:

The HC's inability to effectively manage the playerbase is the main reason why TOE should be removed in favor of a simpler system.

 

If simply getting enough people to show up at a designated AO during high pop is pushing the limits of the HC's abilities then I don't think that making them responsible for all supply management on the map 24/7 is a good idea. Some HC have been able to do it, but it's so much work that it's a 2nd job and on par with a paid position rather than something you must pay for. I could have sworn the original CRS announcement about removing TOE said something about allowing HC to focus on leading and organizing players instead of watching flags.

What?! That has nothing to do with HC's abilities.  All we can do is rally as many vets beforehand, set a few FMS, and ask people to come.  What else do we have to compel people to go where they are needed?  At that point it's on them whether or not we are listened to.  And that will be true in any form of supply system unless you want to give the HC's more power, which I know you are wholeheartedly against.  This line of criticism of HC goes against your own beliefs, Euthyphro.  

 

I've already stated that having HC manage all the supply is not workable in the current health of the game.  That does nothing to discredit the notion that a hybrid system is the way forward, where only a fraction of that supply has the option of being managed.  

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2 hours ago, Capco said:

What is 2 AOs now, about 60 per side?

 

Lets say 10 are flying, leaving 50 on the ground. 

 

Knowing everyones love of defense, the two DOs will probably draw about half the remaining players, leaving 25 for attacking 2 AOs.

 

If we HC can manage to herd enough to cats to the P1, that's barely enough for a proper critical mass at a single AO. 

 

And you all want to add jobs where 5-10 of you go off and do your own thing 2 miles out of town?

 

Come on now...

I think that with town supply back squads with grow along with the pb because simply the Brigade system deconstructed a major portion of what squads did best and that was taking initiative and ownership feeling they could change the course of battle.

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3 minutes ago, stankyus said:

I think that with town supply back squads with grow along with the pb because simply the Brigade system deconstructed a major portion of what squads did best and that was taking initiative and ownership feeling they could change the course of battle.

How many AEF do you expect to see back for 1.36, as well as new players from Steam joining your ranks?  

 

In this future you envision, how many would be on your TS/Discord on a given night?  

 

Imo, the only way this works is if we get the pop to do so.  And it needs to be BEFORE the rules change.  That's one reason why an Early Release without 1.36 might be a good thing.  

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13 minutes ago, Capco said:

How many AEF do you expect to see back for 1.36, as well as new players from Steam joining your ranks?  

 

In this future you envision, how many would be on your TS/Discord on a given night?  

 

Imo, the only way this works is if we get the pop to do so.  And it needs to be BEFORE the rules change.  That's one reason why an Early Release without 1.36 might be a good thing.  

A few... at first. Some have already resubbed in anticipation. Some I do expect AEFs numbers to grow again.  Our demise was multi-reasoned but primarily it centered on Jselic leaving the game to have a baby. He galvanized the squad. Some are traveling the world like Rans, Some have done a few stints of TDY. Some are deployed and some went axis.  We started acting less and less like a orgainized squad and for that reason alone, our numbers dwindled. However, I do expect that once our squad has more to do and more aspects of the game we can do together to change the Order of Battle without HC permission we will again galvanize into a functioning squad and our squad will again grow.  Newbs in the game do not get in AEF or rarely do. We have been burned by a few of them like McCheapy who would log out and log in Axis to ambush our armor columns with 88s. Those newbs we have invited into the squad have shown initiative in the game and we are willing to risk it. Vets generally are welcome but I hate to say it they are vetted and observed. Most AEF gets along quite well with new comers because of this.  TBH I think AEF should look into pulling in some smaller squads again.

 

Another thing to think about Capco is the new toys and new HE audits. The game is going to change radically in that aspect. New toys always have a heavy turn out and the new HE and ballistics audit is going to require new tactics which also has a big draw. I am excited and fully expect a growth in numbers outside steam. I think that once the Brigade system is out and town based supply is back we will see growth in squads and numbers for the reasons I outlined before.  The Steam player is either going to like what they see or not. Its not going to be new toys or the brigade system or town based supply they are going to care about, its going to be about what they experience first impressions.

 

I rather have a hybrid system, not sure how that would look like but garrisoning and unlimited overstocking from rear supply with limits on T-3 AFVs and RPATs would appeal to most.  MB garrisons are always a tier behind or only advance to T2, low in numbers but can be used to overstock other garrisons or brigades.

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So it seems like we agree on a hybrid system. I like the supply and brigade system we have, and I think town supply is a step backward.  I like being able to see a weak spot in a defense and hammering it. I like the strategy of brigade movement, and I think there are some great battles that take place. 

I don't like trapped brigades, especially when it is because a lack of HC being logged on. I don't like the timer to get them back. I still think Hatch has an idea with having a way of players to move brigades when no HC are on. I have no idea how things work, but couldn't something like .overun, where if so many players type it something happens....but to move brigades?

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The games success completely depends on gutting hc/ao/toe, as it has for a very long time.  While seeing new equipment is really nice, fixing the command and supply issues outweigh anything new imo.  Much like the RA misdirection (again I explained no one wants to play a version of 1985 atari looking cod in 2009) you scream give us mo monies for a completely overpriced product in comparison to others, while you smoke the glass pipe working on something other than the major issue.

For years I harassed the previous rocket scientists to put up two servers.  One with your current cluster fook rules and one with the classic town supply.  While I understand this wasn't possible, or considered in their monstrosity vision your playing today, a non toe/hc server blows away the other.  Six months later it would be embarrassing to keep up the other server that had 3 dudes on it moving flags around lmao. And now look at all you dirty town supply believers! Where the fook were you in 2004

One of the most wonderful things I learned from this game early on is you have a mini diplomatic game buried in the ideas of the many coming together.  This happened prior to hc/toe/ao as well. You had clowns in power telling 150 strong squads where and when they could fight. Yeah how about No lol.  

How many hc implosions happened over the years that left a really bad taste in people's mouth? Absolutely no one is here for that, or to move flags, or to get roasted because they moved supply or placed a [censored] ao, it's horrible. All that fun is happening as you destroy play for the rest of us

And drumroll for the kicker..

Your gonna premiere this on steam! After the steam punks get done roasting you on the graphics, monthly sub lol, and why their isn't anyone on to make the game your charging money for playable, they will have public hangings of the poor souls that screw up their play by moving/not moving supply, not putting up the ao they want etc. Oh man you think it's hard getting people to play deal a flag now

Priority list -

1. Town supply 

2. Ao's based on mission leaders choice when they have 10 people on mission it can be placed

3. Steam

4. New gear

I'm always available for consulting, and would only charge one grossly large monument located in Brussels center ab park 

 

Love

Oj 

 

 

Edited by sg1
..

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14 hours ago, sg1 said:

The games success completely depends on gutting hc/ao/toe, as it has for a very long time.  While seeing new equipment is really nice, fixing the command and supply issues outweigh anything new imo.  Much like the RA misdirection (again I explained no one wants to play a version of 1985 atari looking cod in 2009) you scream give us mo monies for a completely overpriced product in comparison to others, while you smoke the glass pipe working on something other than the major issue.

For years I harassed the previous rocket scientists to put up two servers.  One with your current cluster fook rules and one with the classic town supply.  While I understand this wasn't possible, or considered in their monstrosity vision your playing today, a non toe/hc server blows away the other.  Six months later it would be embarrassing to keep up the other server that had 3 dudes on it moving flags around lmao. And now look at all you dirty town supply believers! Where the fook were you in 2004

One of the most wonderful things I learned from this game early on is you have a mini diplomatic game buried in the ideas of the many coming together.  This happened prior to hc/toe/ao as well. You had clowns in power telling 150 strong squads where and when they could fight. Yeah how about No lol.  

How many hc implosions happened over the years that left a really bad taste in people's mouth? Absolutely no one is here for that, or to move flags, or to get roasted because they moved supply or placed a [censored] ao, it's horrible. All that fun is happening as you destroy play for the rest of us

And drumroll for the kicker..

Your gonna premiere this on steam! After the steam punks get done roasting you on the graphics, monthly sub lol, and why their isn't anyone on to make the game your charging money for playable, they will have public hangings of the poor souls that screw up their play by moving/not moving supply, not putting up the ao they want etc. Oh man you think it's hard getting people to play deal a flag now

Priority list -

1. Town supply 

2. Ao's based on mission leaders choice when they have 10 people on mission it can be placed

3. Steam

4. New gear

I'm always available for consulting, and would only charge one grossly large monument located in Brussels center ab park 

 

Love

Oj 

 

 

LOL bet you can't wait to be back in your element.  This time try and do it with allied equipment, that's the challenge for you.

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Lots of strong opinions here, and really tough decisions for Rats.

The real Catch 22:

Spend time changing the Brigade movement system that does not have a clear completion date
or
Release the hounds of a Steam launch with more players, and more funding to improve the game, and more time to make and test a better system.

Let me ask 1 question:
When is highest number of players and most time spent?
If it is summer time, IOW: NOW, then perhaps best to go Steam ASAP
If winter time, then lets change the Brigade system, then Steam release.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Edited by frantish

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Stank... in camp 52..yours truly lead aef to recapture Antwerp during primetime with 17 paras.

That was after the scrubs here said I couldn't do shat in the post toe/hc world.  That capture swung the campaign back to the allies and they went on to win.  In scale of epicness [censored] I've conjured in this game it doesn't even touch top 10 :)

 

Hell, jsilec use to be my jam boy that rode on the front of my panzer to keep the bugs from blocking my view ports.

 

As for 

4 hours ago, frantish said:

Lots of strong opinions here, and really tough decisions for Rats.

The real Catch 22:

Spend time changing the Brigade movement system that does not have a clear completion date
or
Release the hounds of a Steam launch with more players, and more funding to improve the game, and more time to make and test a better system.

Let me ask 1 question:
When is highest number of players and most time spent?
If it is summer time, IOW: NOW, then perhaps best to go Steam ASAP
If winter time, then lets change the Brigade system, then Steam release.

 

Just my 2 cents.

You know there may be some valid point there with steam being key to adding players.  Playing with the 80 during peak on the server now is so boring.  I don't think there will be, but you will get some new players and possibly some suckers to move flags around.

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12 hours ago, sg1 said:

Stank... in camp 52..yours truly lead aef to recapture Antwerp during primetime with 17 paras.

That was after the scrubs here said I couldn't do shat in the post toe/hc world.  That capture swung the campaign back to the allies and they went on to win.  In scale of epicness [censored] I've conjured in this game it doesn't even touch top 10 :)

 

Hell, jsilec use to be my jam boy that rode on the front of my panzer to keep the bugs from blocking my view ports.

 

As for 

You know there may be some valid point there with steam being key to adding players.  Playing with the 80 during peak on the server now is so boring.  I don't think there will be, but you will get some new players and possibly some suckers to move flags around.

Forgot about that.. was there.

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Anyone that can't see the disaster that is moving flags right now, well, I don't know what to say.

Germans had 8 divisions N of Aachen the other day.

We have no flags covering S factory town.

Three different divisions in Monchen with fallbacks completely borked.

No HC on middle of Saturday.

Soft cap after soft cap across the S flank.

it's completely SNAFU.

 

There should be no other priority than removing flags.  Because what's on the map is a mess.

 

Edited by delems
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Talking about TOE, what was/is the reason/point behind this rule?

https://wiki.wwiionline.com/view/Table_of_Organization_and_Equipment#9._Depots

"9. Depots

Depots spawn vehicles directly from your Brigade spawnlist, however, unless you are executing a Hold-at-all-Costs order, they can only spawn a limited numbers over time.

This "throttle" is specific to the depot itself and not to your brigade. If two or more Brigades, regardless of country, are in the same town attempting to spawn from the same depot and one spawns a Rifleman, players in each will see the number of available Riflemen at the depot decrease by one.

Each vehicle on the list will reset back to full when nobody has spawned one for 6 minutes."

Edited by exdeath6

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28 minutes ago, exdeath6 said:

Talking about TOE, what was/is the reason/point behind this rule?

https://wiki.wwiionline.com/view/Table_of_Organization_and_Equipment#9._Depots

"9. Depots

Depots spawn vehicles directly from your Brigade spawnlist, however, unless you are executing a Hold-at-all-Costs order, they can only spawn a limited numbers over time.

This "throttle" is specific to the depot itself and not to your brigade. If two or more Brigades, regardless of country, are in the same town attempting to spawn from the same depot and one spawns a Rifleman, players in each will see the number of available Riflemen at the depot decrease by one.

Each vehicle on the list will reset back to full when nobody has spawned one for 6 minutes."

pretty sure that rule isnt true anymore. the more brigades the more depot supply

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30 minutes ago, exdeath6 said:

Talking about TOE, what was/is the reason/point behind this rule?

https://wiki.wwiionline.com/view/Table_of_Organization_and_Equipment#9._Depots

"9. Depots

Depots spawn vehicles directly from your Brigade spawnlist, however, unless you are executing a Hold-at-all-Costs order, they can only spawn a limited numbers over time.

This "throttle" is specific to the depot itself and not to your brigade. If two or more Brigades, regardless of country, are in the same town attempting to spawn from the same depot and one spawns a Rifleman, players in each will see the number of available Riflemen at the depot decrease by one.

Each vehicle on the list will reset back to full when nobody has spawned one for 6 minutes."

This is talking about 

1.27 TOE

We are well past that and a lot has change since ..... We are working on updating the Wiki and i'll point that out to the Wiki RAT    (B2K)

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13 hours ago, delems said:

Anyone that can't see the disaster that is moving flags right now, well, I don't know what to say..

The system failed plenty of times over the years due to a lack of coverage but TOE supporters always wrote off failures by saying it was the fault of the player base for not joining HC. It wasn't until relatively recently that there was any blame given to the system itself. 

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