XOOM

Brigade Removal Frozen for Steam "Early Access"

514 posts in this topic

23 hours ago, david01 said:

The system failed plenty of times over the years due to a lack of coverage but TOE supporters always wrote off failures by saying it was the fault of the player base for not joining HC. It wasn't until relatively recently that there was any blame given to the system itself. 

Exactly, though I assign blame to the whole playerbase and not just HC.

 

Honestly @Capco, it really has everything to do with HC not knowing how to A: effectively manage the playerbase, and B: not knowing how to effectively manage supply.

 

On count A, when superstar HC is on, like you and potthead, (not that there aren't others who do a good job, I just don't want to list them all,) they know exactly how to contact squad leaders and organize exciting attacks and know exactly when to divert resources to the DOs. That's uncommon though. Not everyone can see two move ahead, or three, and unless there are specific orders for movements, and those orders are FOLLOWED, and COMMUNICATED in a cohesive manner, it's all for naught.

Why place the game's action and organization on part-time job holders who may or may not show up to work? Why have those jobs at ALL? It restricts mobility of the rest of us, and restricts action at every stage across the map.

 

On count B, The ToES supply system is complex, full of odd rules, and only a small handful of actual CRS employees actually understands all of it. It's needlessly complicated and even after my own HC training with TheFSG, years ago, I was at a loss to get it all. Even after sitting on TS for countless hours with Bloodhun23 while he expertly maneuvered supply, AOs and DOs... it was clear as mud. Always some rule that prohibits gameplay, and always some sticking point.

The ONLY reason we had such huge success during that run, (and what a success it was!) was because the heavies of GHC routinely communicated in third party venues to keep someone on at all times and following the CiNC's orders.

Even then it was a pain in the arse, and required obsessive-level organization and comms. 

I think a hybrid system with SOME movable supply would be best, so the whole game doesn't crumble when nobody is on or people that don't understand the system are left to flounder.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, vasduten1 said:

I think a hybrid system with SOME movable supply would be best, so the whole game doesn't crumble when nobody is on or people that don't understand the system are left to flounder.

That's all I'm saying ;) 

 

If I ever voice support of TOEs, it is in the vein of a hybrid system and not what we have now.  Recently I was talking about simple improvements to what we have now, but only because CRS was asking for input to help the game before Steam Early Access.  

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There isn't going to be a hybrid system when the game launches on Steam. There is going to be the current TOE system until some point in the future when CRS has both the will and the resources to make one. The game doesn't have enough HC right now and there's no small changes that CRS can make that will get them enough HC.

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33 minutes ago, david01 said:

There isn't going to be a hybrid system when the game launches on Steam. There is going to be the current TOE system until some point in the future when CRS has both the will and the resources to make one. The game doesn't have enough HC right now and there's no small changes that CRS can make that will get them enough HC.

LOL unless they PAY people to play as HC and then give them a month long training session before sending them out to the game's detriment.

 

:)

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I've been back a few weeks now, and look forward to town supply, when ever they get around to it.  I agree with many comments above that it will foster squad play again and revive the air. There was noting better then hunting armor and resupply   efforts or flying patrols to protect our resupply efforts. (although, I cannot edit my config to get incremental flaps to work any more and that is a hugh disadvantage.  None of the stuff I have read and tried works for me anymore, but I'm still working through it)

I loved the days when 3CD, The Water Rats, was a large squad assigned to Namur and protecting the Sambre river area.  Epic battles.  I played day 1, on an account that a cop buddy of mine who worked midnights and I shared.  It was always a battle as to who got on to play when he was off, so after the first month I bought another account.  The game was addictive.  I still enjoy playing in short spurts and really hope the direction we are headed brings back the squad play. I have reached out to a few of the old crew and hopefully we can get the band back together and rebuild.  There was nothing like this game in 2001 and I maintain that this remains true today. 

 

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During the town based supply days I was in favor of adding the TOEs since it seemed to bring a much more strategic role into the game. 

The past several months I have been siding with bringing back town based supply; now for the past month I have been more of a hybrid system with all front line towns having supply and one town behind the front having movable flags/divisions with extra supply that can be moved into the front line towns for extra supply providing the attackers with the extra push needed to cap towns.

However now I am more in favor of just adding more flags/divisions to the game itself. Just added an extra 4-5 flags/division to both armies. What this does is still allows the strategic role to be saved within the game, but also allows people like Oj or deadlock & channel 94 or the next future guy to flourish within the game since the extra supply will be there for them without having to rely on HC too much.

And imho we need guys like this on both sides. The game was much more entertaining during those days;  sure i got my [censored] camped alot but I sure did alot of camping too. The aspect of the game that needs to return is an individual should be able to find enough supply along the front to be able to do that and not rely on HC for it. Its breeds leaders and people that wish to play with them and Oj and channel 94 were great at it.

Personally i find it more of an issue with the lack of AOs rather than supply needed for those guys, that i think is the problem. 1 or 2 AOs is just absurd. During prime time there should be 3 at all times. Or better yet...have all front line towns depots capable once again but not the AB until an AO is placed. That allows a large force to move without HC involvement and with the added flags/divisions they can do that. Once HC sees the frontline town is under their control they can place an AO on it allowing the AB to be capped

IMHO AOs are always placed wayyyy to early, why place one if you dont even have some hold in a town plus you allow defense to get setup prior to your advancement if placed too early...and 90% are placed way too early.

The more I do think about it, I really don't want ALL towns to have supply, its not realistic and it does not allow for certain types of advancements along the front lines.

Unless there are more AOs and more supply, players like Oj or the next channel 94 will not return or appear within game 

My suggestion would be that each army has an extra 4 divisions that are placed 5-6 towns behind the front at the start of the map. IE: Axis have 1 extra division in Eindhoven, Aachen, Wiltz and Bitburg. Allies 1 extra in Gent, Maubeuge, Signy, Montfaucon...these towns are just examples mind you. Now what HC can do is set them on timers and not have to manually move them up, but they can place a timer on the divisions to arrive at a certain town at a certain time. This allows HC to say to Oj, ok at Thursday night 8pm in xyz town you will have full supply to attack with, get your guys ready to roll at that time. This boosts squad nights since they know supply will be there

My apologizes to continue to use Oj as an example but we all know his group did some amazing work, channel 94 too...i dont know any of these guys but since he did comment in here and I wish to know his thoughts about what would bring back large squads like this and Im also referring to the next certain individual that has the ability to rally troops

The strategic role must be maintained since its sets this game apart, AOs should be increased, Supply must be increased by either town based, hybrid system or just adding more divisions to rear town but if you think going into Steam with 4-5 Pz3 in a town is a good idea, i would suggest rethinking that plan. No supply equals people logging off if they cant find the equipment they want.

Also, Hatch made some excellent comments in here and should be revisited for second readings by people in this thread

 

 

Edited by kazee

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TOEs have been a crutch that dumbed down tactical game play from the moment they were introduced. Getting your [censored] kicked on the battlefield?  No big deal. Call Scotty and have him beam a whole new unit right into the AB. Rinse and repeat until player numbers fall so the attack is done. 

Manage to get a break through because HC was asleep or not logged in?  Awesome. Your side just won by capturing an endless series of empty CPs. What a fight. 

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15 hours ago, saronin said:

TOEs have been a crutch that dumbed down tactical game play from the moment they were introduced. Getting your [censored] kicked on the battlefield?  No big deal. Call Scotty and have him beam a whole new unit right into the AB. Rinse and repeat until player numbers fall so the attack is done. 

Manage to get a break through because HC was asleep or not logged in?  Awesome. Your side just won by capturing an endless series of empty CPs. What a fight. 

The main goal behind the TOE system has been proven to be disaster both from a gameplay and a financial standpoint so I don't know why anyone is still trying to save it.

 

Brigade rotation was supposed to be a good thing because it would allow a HC officer on the losing team to easily counter the winning team and make things balanced. Brigade cutoffs and breakthroughs were supposed to be exciting events and not make everyone on the server log off for days. Eliminating player-run supply columns and oversupplying would be a great thing because those were used by the overpop side to imbalance the game and gain an unfair advantage. All the large squads being forced to operate strictly under HC or leave the game was supposed to be a good thing because (like Hatch said again earlier in this thread) it was the squads were imbalancing and ruining the game. It's like all of these debates went down the memory hole and now you have people here talking about how how great TOE will be if it has a few tweaks or is a hybrid system, as if the concept hasn't been a 100% failure from the start.

 

I mean TOE removal was only put on the table as a last-ditch attempt to save the HC system, and there's still resistance and haggling over the details.

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2 hours ago, david01 said:

The main goal behind the TOE system has been proven to be disaster both from a gameplay and a financial standpoint so I don't know why anyone is still trying to save it.

 

Brigade rotation was supposed to be a good thing because it would allow a HC officer on the losing team to easily counter the winning team and make things balanced. Brigade cutoffs and breakthroughs were supposed to be exciting events and not make everyone on the server log off for days. Eliminating player-run supply columns and oversupplying would be a great thing because those were used by the overpop side to imbalance the game and gain an unfair advantage. All the large squads being forced to operate strictly under HC or leave the game was supposed to be a good thing because (like Hatch said again earlier in this thread) it was the squads were imbalancing and ruining the game. It's like all of these debates went down the memory hole and now you have people here talking about how how great TOE will be if it has a few tweaks or is a hybrid system, as if the concept hasn't been a 100% failure from the start.

 

I mean TOE removal was only put on the table as a last-ditch attempt to save the HC system, and there's still resistance and haggling over the details.

You're pretending as if the issues that brought about the genesis of TOEs didn't exist or were made up. 

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6 minutes ago, Capco said:

You're pretending as if the issues that brought about the genesis of TOEs didn't exist or were made up. 

...and you're pretending that the ToES system isn't as big of a deal as it is.

 

I just can't see how anyone would defend it, even as a hybrid. I see the possibilities of a hybrid system, but really, if HC is put back in a more direct role in organizing assaults and defenses, and doesn't have to move supply around AT ALL, it will be a boon.

 

Hop around Discord channels and set up big time attacks with actual combined arms. Set up ZsoC and watch them actually attrit and MEAN something!

 

We all need to move on from this. Saronin is right; the ToEs/HC system dumbed the strategic aspects down and maybe that was seen as a solution at the time, but it isn't and hasn't worked for years.

 

The question is not, "What's not to like about flag movement?" -it's, "What's TO like?"

 

 

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On 6/12/2017 at 7:58 AM, vasduten1 said:

I think a hybrid system with SOME movable supply would be best, so the whole game doesn't crumble when nobody is on or people that don't understand the system are left to flounder.

I agree wholeheartedly.

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33 minutes ago, vasduten1 said:

...and you're pretending that the ToES system isn't as big of a deal as it is.

 

I just can't see how anyone would defend it, even as a hybrid. I see the possibilities of a hybrid system, but really, if HC is put back in a more direct role in organizing assaults and defenses, and doesn't have to move supply around AT ALL, it will be a boon.

 

Hop around Discord channels and set up big time attacks with actual combined arms. Set up ZsoC and watch them actually attrit and MEAN something!

 

We all need to move on from this. Saronin is right; the ToEs/HC system dumbed the strategic aspects down and maybe that was seen as a solution at the time, but it isn't and hasn't worked for years.

 

The question is not, "What's not to like about flag movement?" -it's, "What's TO like?"

 

 

No I'm not vasnooben, and that should be infinitely clear to you considering how many of my posts you've read. 

 

Newsflash: no one sits at the map and watches flags without playing. Not a soul. It's an outright fallacy. And even when there is a proper MOIC online making moves, it takes about 5 minutes every hour. The rest of the time they are one of the PB, on discord, setting up zocs, and attrition their enemies. 

 

Again I will ask: who here doesn't set FMS, guard CPs, blow FBs, and generally avoids all the things that makes the game function BUT will start to do all those things that generate content once 1.36 comes out? 

 

Sure, guys like Moe and BMW will sign up for HC, but will they be doing anything different in regards to setting FMS or guarding CPs or blowing FBs than they are doing right now? 

 

There are only a handful of doers in this game and this is an entirely intrinsic personality trait. It has nothing to do with external factors. 1.36 by itself does not equal more tactical leadership just because 1 person no longer has to look at flags 5 minutes per hour. It doesn't work like that.

 

But keep dreaming of your magic pill that makes everything bad go away.

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*** Newsflash: no one sits at the map and watches flags without playing. Not a soul. It's an outright fallacy. 

Well, idk about the rest of HC, but that is all I did when I was MO, I didn't play; I simply watch the map and moved flags.

I watched the entire map, every flags supply, timers, fallbacks, enemies flag movements etc.

 

Current HC (nothing personal intended), don't seem to have a grasp on fallbacks, division placement or rotating supply.

Maybe I was an odd one out, but I rarely played when I was MO - one of the many reasons I left HC actually.

 

We need town supply imo.  Want dynamic play?  Add some platoon sized squad flags and armored companies on the map that are moved by squad COs or HC.

For exampled, in tier 0, there are no IIIBs in any flag, instead, there are 4 Pz flags each with  6 IIIBs in them, much like the actual deployment in France.

80 or 90% of supply would be in towns- squads would get a little bit to work with and there would be a few system flags.

Also, the squad and system flags would not be visible to the other side.

 

Current HC are not plentiful enough to run flags on the map.

 

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4 minutes ago, delems said:

*** Newsflash: no one sits at the map and watches flags without playing. Not a soul. It's an outright fallacy. 

Well, idk about the rest of HC, but that is all I did when I was MO, I didn't play; I simply watch the map and moved flags.

I watched the entire map, every flags supply, timers, fallbacks, enemies flag movements etc.

 

Current HC (nothing personal intended), don't seem to have a grasp on fallbacks, division placement or rotating supply.

Maybe I was an odd one out, but I rarely played when I was MO - one of the many reasons I left HC actually.

 

We need town supply imo.  Want dynamic play?  Add some platoon sized squad flags and armored companies on the map that are moved by squad COs or HC.

For exampled, in tier 0, there are no IIIBs in any flag, instead, there are 4 Pz flags each with  6 IIIBs in them, much like the actual deployment in France.

80 or 90% of supply would be in towns- squads would get a little bit to work with and there would be a few system flags.

Also, the squad and system flags would not be visible to the other side.

 

Current HC are not plentiful enough to run flags on the map.

 

I agree with your suggestions, but I'm a little shocked you said you don't play while MOIC. I manage to play 2-3 accounts when I'm on map...

 

Come on delems, I know you're more capable than that! 

 

But alright, let's say that's true for every MOIC. We are still talking about the tactical difference that said MOIC could make. A single additional individual not watching map and playing does not equal a tactical renaissance.

 

And there will still be MOICs watching the map when selecting AOs and checking town supplies. The only part being relieved is the flag movement part. 

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Well, I usually sat at a FB, or was in a DD sailing to England.

But I was not playing like one would think.

As much fun as playing HC chess is (and at times I really loved it, hated giving up MO even at times), but I think the current TOE system as implemented has to go.

 

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11 minutes ago, delems said:

Well, I usually sat at a FB, or was in a DD sailing to England.

But I was not playing like one would think.

As much fun as playing HC chess is (and at times I really loved it, hated giving up MO even at times), but I think the current TOE system as implemented has to go.

 

Of course it has to go. I'm in full agreement. 

 

That doesn't mean I'm going to be wearing rose colored glasses about 1.36 either. 

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3 hours ago, Capco said:

You're pretending as if the issues that brought about the genesis of TOEs didn't exist or were made up. 

Compared to WHAT TOE has done .... they were NON- ISSUES ... 

 

1 hour ago, Capco said:

I agree with your suggestions, but I'm a little shocked you said you don't play while MOIC. I manage to play 2-3 accounts when I'm on map...

 

Come on delems, I know you're more capable than that! 

 

But alright, let's say that's true for every MOIC. We are still talking about the tactical difference that said MOIC could make. A single additional individual not watching map and playing does not equal a tactical renaissance.

 

"And there will still be MOICs watching the map when selecting AOs and checking town supplies. The only part being relieved is the flag movement part. "

"And there will still be MOICs watching the map when selecting AOs and checking town supplies. The only part being relieved is the flag movement part. "

 

That is a HUGE HUGE HUGE PART ..... god I cant WAIT till it goes... the WORST part of this game --- it is WHAT KILLED this game ......... and if it is NOT removed ASAP ... the game will not be REVIVED.  (and yes i can run 5 accounts and do map better than anyone and communicate and all that ... BUT SO WHAT.... that is by no means a justification of keeping ANY PART OF this CRAP ..... I repeat ANY PART .. not even the SMALLEST smell of it..... when u clean CRAP ... u remove it all and then disinfect it to not have any trace of it left.  ... not OH lets clean the toilet but not use air-freshner so we can still SMELL The crap from before... TOE is a PILE OF CRAP .... having a Hybrid remaining would mean the SMELL will linger ... 

If at any point I have sounded like i am a fan of a hybrid system .. I APOLOGIES... I APOLOGIES more dramatically than Kathy Griffin 

 

PLEASE GODS of CRS -- remove TOE for GOOD .. nothing can be better... NO COMPROMISE - no RETREAT ... REMOVE TOE --- REMOVE TOE ... REMOVE TOE ... REMOVE TOE ... REMOVE TOE .... If I could say it 10000 times I would say it again ... REMOVE TOE 

PLEASE REMOVE TOE 

Very KINDLY dear sirs and madams, please remove toe

I beg you XOOM ... PLEASE REMOVE TOE

I try to connect to your human side... i GROVEL at your FEET ... for the sake of our friends... for the sake of anything that is holy.... for the sake the BEST GAME that EVER WAS...  PLEASE REMOVE TOE

 

MATAMOR--- where are you to back me on this? :)

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, potthead said:

Compared to WHAT TOE has done .... they were NON- ISSUES ... 

LOL.  Easy for you to say being a predominantly Axis player.  You weren't intimately familiar with the problems of town-based supply the way the hardcore Allies were, so naturally it's easy for you to toot that horn considering your lack of perspective.  

 

Prior to TOEs, the campaign victories were skewed in the Axis' favor by a considerable margin.  TOEs helped the Allies balance that out since their introduction.  

 

To date, TOEs is the only system implemented where the underpop side has a legitimate chance to win.  No other balancing mechanism ever introduced has allowed that to happen, or allowed the Allies to compete against the historically larger Axis bench of players.  

 

Going back to town-supply without a hybrid system is equivalent to a tyranny of the majority.  

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17 minutes ago, Capco said:

LOL.  Easy for you to say being a predominantly Axis player.  You weren't intimately familiar with the problems of town-based supply the way the hardcore Allies were, so naturally it's easy for you to toot that horn considering your lack of perspective.  

 

Prior to TOEs, the campaign victories were skewed in the Axis' favor by a considerable margin.  TOEs helped the Allies balance that out since their introduction.  

 

To date, TOEs is the only system implemented where the underpop side has a legitimate chance to win.  No other balancing mechanism ever introduced has allowed that to happen, or allowed the Allies to compete against the historically larger Axis bench of players.  

 

Going back to town-supply without a hybrid system is equivalent to a tyranny of the majority.  

Staying with TOEs created posts like the one below. 

On 5/12/2017 at 6:35 PM, XOOM said:

I'd be curious for the community's feedback on this matter. Do note it is something I am purely curious about. I see multiple small squads being counter productive in many respects to the overall health and functions of the game. Not because of the loyalty or history associated with them, I get that's a primary reason why they exist.

Squads as we know it is the core foundation to the game, and specifically teamwork. In many cases, it is the very definition for some why folks stay around, I am not oblivious to that good stuff.

How would some of these smaller squads, merging together or into bigger (existing) squads, benefit or be a detriment to the game?

And in addition to that, how can we pump existing squads upwards to have more personnel within them so that they are a bit bigger, a bit more full of life and such, etc.

This is a late Friday night thought I had, so if you fundamentally disagree with what I am saying try not to freak out, it's not policy, just worth discussing as it's been weighing on my mind lately.

S! 

What happened to the mega squads anyway?  Now you get to magically warp all kinds of supply are the map for the player base. All two of them. 

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27 minutes ago, saronin said:

What happened to the mega squads anyway?  Now you get to magically warp all kinds of supply are the map for the player base. All two of them. 

What happened?  The mega squads destroyed the game from within and then left.  And they started to leave before TOEs was implemented, which is partly why TOEs was put up on the drawing board in the first place.  

Edited by Capco

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Day 2 of this map and Antwerp is Axis and buffered and Brussels is Axis and in the process of being buffered. 30 sec Axis SD. 

 

Another crap map. Another snoozefest.  Remind me why I'm sticking around paying for 2 accounts again?  Oh, it was the removal of this abortion of a brigade system...

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2 hours ago, Capco said:

What happened?  The mega squads destroyed the game from within and then left.  And they started to leave before TOEs was implemented, which is partly why TOEs was put up on the drawing board in the first place.  

TOEs 8-28-2007 ---------------->  https://wiki.wwiionline.com/view/Readme_1.27#Tables_of_Equipment_.28TOE.29

The bottom fell out XMAS 2012 ------------------------->  https://www.wwiionline.com/game-news/development-notes/life-at-rat-hq

Try again Capco.  Your timing is way off there bud.  The magical warping of supply neutered the good tactical leaders in the game and they started leaving.  Those people were often COs or XOs of the mega squads.  In 2007 those large squads were still going strong.  XOOM would not have asked the question about consolidating smaller squads into larger ones in 2007. 

You are right that there are only so many "doers" in game.  TOEs forced many of those folks to leave because they could no longer get anything done.  When they left, their squads collapsed and the people who followed them left as well. By May 2012 I think they knew they needed to do something for the squads.  Notice the discussion of bringing back squad missions in the roadmap https://battlegroundeurope.com/game-news/development-notes/135-and-the-wwiiol-roadmap .  It was too little too late.  Since then there was no development until recently. 

It was and still is a bad system.  The game suffered for it. 

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Nope.  The peak player pop wasn't during 2007; it was earlier.  The exodus preceded TOEs (not to mention pop actually picked up after the implementation of TOEs, although only for about 6 months).  

 

Movable supply does nothing to hurt doers or tactical leaders.  There's already more stuff to do than people doing it.  Moving a brigade does not equal tactical leadership, but neither does driving a tank from 1 town back lol.  It's about using terrain to your advantage when setting up, it's about getting people organized and on the same page.  Moving a brigade literally affects none of that.  

 

What happened was a non-hybrid, 100% player-controlled JWBS supply system was implemented, then a bunch of control freaks and their rabid packs of dogs stopped getting their way automatically (mostly in order to stomp out the Allies since the majority of the mega squads were Axis), and instead of working within the new HC system to try and make it function (and even at those 2007-2011 pop levels it DID function) they jumped ship after stirring up a toxic storm, exasperating an already bad population problem.  

Edited by Capco

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4 minutes ago, Capco said:

Movable supply does nothing to hurt doers or tactical leaders

my squad annihilated the armor supply (right down to 2c's) in a town. they just moved another flag in.

 

there are good days when a side has excellent play, killing up to 3:1 and still don't win.

same on bad days, we just zombie hoard into the CP's dieing en mass, getting refreshed 3-5 times then win cause the attackers get bored and log.

 

our K/D is pointless, with the current system all that matters is flooding a CP...

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