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Brigade Removal Frozen for Steam "Early Access"

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Capco
2 minutes ago, major0noob said:

my squad annihilated the armor supply (right down to 2c's) in a town. they just moved another flag in.

 

there are good days when a side has excellent play, killing up to 3:1 and still don't win.

same on bad days, we just zombie hoard into the CP's dieing en mass, getting refreshed 3-5 times then win cause the attackers get bored and log.

 

our K/D is pointless, with the current system all that matters is flooding a CP...

And there were easier fixes on the table for that than what they are trying to do now, fixes that could have been done a year ago that having nothing to do with town-based supply.  

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lipton
1 hour ago, Mosizlak said:

Day 2 of this map and Antwerp is Axis and buffered and Brussels is Axis and in the process of being buffered. 30 sec Axis SD. 

 

Another crap map. Another snoozefest.  Remind me why I'm sticking around paying for 2 accounts again?  Oh, it was the removal of this abortion of a brigade system...

That's why I'm back down to 1 account.   

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Capco

Guys, you know I'm passionate about the (few) good aspects of movable supply.  I'm also passionate about the (few) good aspects of town supply.  Both systems have positives and negatives.

 

I know TOEs in the current state of the game needs to go.  I cannot defend the indefensible (like lack of HC coverage for 100% of the supply), but there are good aspects of movable brigades than can exist in a hybrid system.  It is those parts I am defending.  

 

I am fervently against 100% town-based supply unless it is simply a stepping stone to a hybrid system.  

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potthead
2 hours ago, lipton said:

That's why I'm back down to 1 account.   

me too :( 

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potthead
On 6/22/2017 at 0:24 PM, saronin said:

TOEs have been a crutch that dumbed down tactical game play from the moment they were introduced. Getting your [censored] kicked on the battlefield?  No big deal. Call Scotty and have him beam a whole new unit right into the AB. Rinse and repeat until player numbers fall so the attack is done. 

Manage to get a break through because HC was asleep or not logged in?  Awesome. Your side just won by capturing an endless series of empty CPs. What a fight. 

so True! 

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potthead
7 hours ago, Capco said:

LOL.  Easy for you to say being a predominantly Axis player.  You weren't intimately familiar with the problems of town-based supply the way the hardcore Allies were, so naturally it's easy for you to toot that horn considering your lack of perspective.  

True I am a majority Axis player- however 17,000 Sorties on Allied side also gives me a little perspective from both sides..

this forum almost feels like capco defender of TOE vs. all else :) -- good on u man.. u are good forum warrior for sure..  (read as light hearted humor btw.. no hating on u) 

anyone that is this passionate about this game is a good guy in my book! So while I disagree with all of your idea about TOE ... i still think u are cool S!

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david01
3 hours ago, Capco said:

Nope.  The peak player pop wasn't during 2007; it was earlier.  The exodus preceded TOEs (not to mention pop actually picked up after the implementation of TOEs, although only for about 6 months).  

 

Movable supply does nothing to hurt doers or tactical leaders.  There's already more stuff to do than people doing it.  Moving a brigade does not equal tactical leadership, but neither does driving a tank from 1 town back lol.  It's about using terrain to your advantage when setting up, it's about getting people organized and on the same page.  Moving a brigade literally affects none of that.  

 

What happened was a non-hybrid, 100% player-controlled JWBS supply system was implemented, then a bunch of control freaks and their rabid packs of dogs stopped getting their way automatically (mostly in order to stomp out the Allies since the majority of the mega squads were Axis), and instead of working within the new HC system to try and make it function (and even at those 2007-2011 pop levels it DID function) they jumped ship after stirring up a toxic storm, exasperating an already bad population problem.  

Maybe 50 people globally want to play the TOE flag game. If TOE brought in subs then those subs would be here now. If TOE was a good system that people enjoyed then HC would have grown organically instead of having to cannibalize reluctant players from squad communities ("working within the new HC system" as you call it). You would have enough officers and wouldn't be begging every remaining subscriber to join HC.

 

Again the whole point of TOE was to use some "strategic" or "operational" mechanics to counter the tactical situation. So it definitely does supersede the tactical game and it's not an accident. CRS found out the hard way though that when you make the tactical aspect of your MMOFPS simulation almost irrelevant you lose most of your FPS players. Driving a vehicle from a rear town is a literal tactical movement, organizing a resupply and especially a relief mission requires...organizational skills and TOE made almost all terrain irrelevant. No encirclement, no interdiction, no road vs cross-country and bridges don't even matter.

 

I'm not sure what experience you have in other MMOs, but enforcing team composition and encouraging team play are basic duties of any guild leader. A guild leader isn't a control freak for doing this and the players following him aren't rabid dogs (MMO guilds are voluntary organizations unlike HC). It's their choice if they want a casual or cohesive play session. Also you're blaming the players for not liking TOE and leaving instead of TOE. Who are you going to blame after the Steam launch and TOE fails again?

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zbus
5 hours ago, lipton said:

That's why I'm back down to 1 account.   

Yep it is a shame Twerp battles used to go on for weeks  in the days of town supply  Axis basically had to get  at least 4 links to it  to make it viable  to attack. Anyway I am a year one player  and i came back because I heard they would be doing away with the brigade system for steam or at least allowing squads to get the control back they needed . Sorry for all you guys who wanted  HC and the brigade system it was a grand concept but from one who was here before and after both systems  the town based squad based system was way better.  just my 2 cent

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bmw
16 hours ago, Capco said:

Sure, guys like Moe and BMW will sign up for HC, but will they be doing anything different in regards to setting FMS or guarding CPs or blowing FBs than they are doing right now? 

Yes...............not moving flags, not setting fallbacks that need to be set and re-set, not shifting resources up and down the line due to no HC on the night before, returning flags from training........Im sure there's more.  The 2 hrs or so I have a night to play it's not what I want to be doing........some love it, most dont.  Those who do are in the HC system and there are NOT alot so that speaks volumes too.

But in a nutshell.........Brigades just dont work anymore. Its a system of a game of the past that no longer works in todays game.

Edited by bmw
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petie

I had 2 accounts going.  Both unsubbed.

Will not be subbing till they prioritize flag removal.

Kicking it in the long grass was a [censored] move.

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vasduten1
16 hours ago, Capco said:

I agree with your suggestions, but I'm a little shocked you said you don't play while MOIC. I manage to play 2-3 accounts when I'm on map...

 

Come on delems, I know you're more capable than that! 

 

But alright, let's say that's true for every MOIC. We are still talking about the tactical difference that said MOIC could make. A single additional individual not watching map and playing does not equal a tactical renaissance.

 

And there will still be MOICs watching the map when selecting AOs and checking town supplies. The only part being relieved is the flag movement part. 

When I was in HC, on two occasions, and on those times when I got MOIC... I had to sit there and manage all the supply. 

I had no time for playing, really, unless it was sitting in a CP guarding or at a FB. Even then I'd receive comms from other HC players or .m about supply. It wasn't an "every hour or so" affair; not by a long shot. Sure, you'd have time enough to drive in a FMS, but really... once it was set you'd have to pass ML to someone and go back to staring at links, flags and BULLSHEET.

 

Look... you can't use the example of having 2-3 accounts to justify how you are able to play as well as move flags.

Who the FACK wants to have 2-3 accounts?!? I don't have the funds for that, and why the heck should anyone HAVE to have more than one account to make something happen?!?!? 

 

I mean, even players who aren't in HC sometimes have to have multiple accounts in order to get things done. That is a strong indicator that the gameplay is in the sh!tter.

 

 

I fail to see how any tactical differences you describe even applies here, if it is dependent on someone having multiple accounts to do a part-time JOB of managing supply for the game's developers.

 

That's kind of facked up.

 

 

 

 

Edited by vasduten1

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vasduten1
5 hours ago, david01 said:

Maybe 50 people globally want to play the TOE flag game. If TOE brought in subs then those subs would be here now. If TOE was a good system that people enjoyed then HC would have grown organically instead of having to cannibalize reluctant players from squad communities ("working within the new HC system" as you call it). You would have enough officers and wouldn't be begging every remaining subscriber to join HC.

 

Again the whole point of TOE was to use some "strategic" or "operational" mechanics to counter the tactical situation. So it definitely does supersede the tactical game and it's not an accident. CRS found out the hard way though that when you make the tactical aspect of your MMOFPS simulation almost irrelevant you lose most of your FPS players. Driving a vehicle from a rear town is a literal tactical movement, organizing a resupply and especially a relief mission requires...organizational skills and TOE made almost all terrain irrelevant. No encirclement, no interdiction, no road vs cross-country and bridges don't even matter.

 

I'm not sure what experience you have in other MMOs, but enforcing team composition and encouraging team play are basic duties of any guild leader. A guild leader isn't a control freak for doing this and the players following him aren't rabid dogs (MMO guilds are voluntary organizations unlike HC). It's their choice if they want a casual or cohesive play session. Also you're blaming the players for not liking TOE and leaving instead of TOE. Who are you going to blame after the Steam launch and TOE fails again?

See? Even the FTP guy gets it.

 

I'd love it if guys like David01 felt GOOD about paying to play this game again.

 

He describes the utter pointlessness of  neglecting the tactical aspects of a  FPS rather succinctly.

 

Look what it's done.

 

 

It's time to drop it, and not kick it down the road some more.

I resubbed for the HE audit, which a month ago was reported as being mostly ready and waiting for implementation. Still waiting.

 

I was also excited about 1.36, and found out after resubbing that it wasn't the next step. I supported the change in timers, as a stop gap measure and as a test to see if it would help, but all it did was place an even bigger burden on HC.

 

 

I really hope CRS is watching this thread and can pull their heads out of their collective a$$es to prioritize making the game playable again before going to a Steam release-clusterfack.

 

I'd much rather see Steam wait until September and help work out the bugs of 1.36 by playing and reporting issues over this summer.

 

Then again, I may get tired of paying a monthly on this and get more into fishing instead.

 

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vasduten1
40 minutes ago, bmw said:

Yes...............not moving flags, not setting fallbacks that need to be set and re-set, not shifting resources up and down the line due to no HC on the night before, returning flags from training........Im sure there's more.  The 2 hrs or so I have a night to play it's not what I want to be doing........some love it, most dont.  Those who do are in the HC system and there are NOT alot so that speaks volumes too.

But in a nutshell.........Brigades just dont work anymore. Its a system of a game of the past that no longer works in todays game.

@Capco

 

Dude... this is what most people deal with when playing as HC. I don't know how many accounts you ran at the time you were HC, but if the answer is "more than one, of course!" then you're WRONG.

 

Not even a hybrid system would help if it entails HC players paying for multiple accounts, or even having a FTP account for guarding. Selling the current sytem is like selling a car, only the car only runs on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. If you want to drive a car on the off days, you have to buy another car.

 

That's not a fair way to treat your volunteers who manage the game's supply for you... for FREE, then burn out because it's a fugging joke.

 

Just admit ToES has to go, and stop trying to defend it. You haven't even played since April 21st, yet here you are  repeating yourself over and over again about how ToES is somehow defensible and somehow added to the game.

 

 

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delems

*** Honestly, though... they're going to be taxed to the limit and beyond with the influx of Steam players.

^^  This, how will anything get done then?  1.36 needs to be out first imo.

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saronin
10 hours ago, Capco said:

Nope.  The peak player pop wasn't during 2007; it was earlier.  The exodus preceded TOEs (not to mention pop actually picked up after the implementation of TOEs, although only for about 6 months).  

 

Movable supply does nothing to hurt doers or tactical leaders.  There's already more stuff to do than people doing it.  Moving a brigade does not equal tactical leadership, but neither does driving a tank from 1 town back lol.  It's about using terrain to your advantage when setting up, it's about getting people organized and on the same page.  Moving a brigade literally affects none of that.  

 

What happened was a non-hybrid, 100% player-controlled JWBS supply system was implemented, then a bunch of control freaks and their rabid packs of dogs stopped getting their way automatically (mostly in order to stomp out the Allies since the majority of the mega squads were Axis), and instead of working within the new HC system to try and make it function (and even at those 2007-2011 pop levels it DID function) they jumped ship after stirring up a toxic storm, exasperating an already bad population problem.  

Moveable supply as it exists in this game does everything to hurt doers and tactical leaders. Using the supply crutch allows a side to keep spamming in new supply no matter how bad the tactical situation is. No ZOC can hold up forever, especially against endless supply magically beamed into towns. The supply dynamic in game is a gamey system that has done way more harm than good.

I would be in board if brigades were moved up to the nearest town to a town in trouble and backline FBs were opened so that the rescuing of a town could be simulated. At least then it's honest. Rescuing forces would have to fight their way in from the field. With the current dynamic you can slap a whole division right in the middle of a town without them ever having been exposed to fire on the way in. 

The system made tactical leadership irrelevant in game. Attrition became a useless concept. The current strategy involves hopping AOs until you cap a spawn or catch the other side off guard and quickly over run them. Sustained fights are a rare occurrence now. 

I never said driving tanks from a back town was a tactical issue. It's not. It's a logistical issue. CRS dropped manual resupply in favor of a lazy system. The problem is that system brought with it some baggage that severely hurt tactical game play. 

It also hurt the game in other aspects. Lower equipment on the totem pole lost its value because higher equipment is always available to both sides. Seeing a tier 0 light tank is like seeing a unicorn. 

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Capco
8 hours ago, potthead said:

True I am a majority Axis player- however 17,000 Sorties on Allied side also gives me a little perspective from both sides..

17,000 sorties that were after January 2006, meaning you are not intimately familiar with the major shortfalls that town-based supply presented to the Allies.  You actually do lack the necessary perspective here.  

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Capco
7 hours ago, david01 said:

Maybe 50 people globally want to play the TOE flag game. If TOE brought in subs then those subs would be here now. If TOE was a good system that people enjoyed then HC would have grown organically instead of having to cannibalize reluctant players from squad communities ("working within the new HC system" as you call it). You would have enough officers and wouldn't be begging every remaining subscriber to join HC.

 

Again the whole point of TOE was to use some "strategic" or "operational" mechanics to counter the tactical situation. So it definitely does supersede the tactical game and it's not an accident. CRS found out the hard way though that when you make the tactical aspect of your MMOFPS simulation almost irrelevant you lose most of your FPS players. Driving a vehicle from a rear town is a literal tactical movement, organizing a resupply and especially a relief mission requires...organizational skills and TOE made almost all terrain irrelevant. No encirclement, no interdiction, no road vs cross-country and bridges don't even matter.

 

I'm not sure what experience you have in other MMOs, but enforcing team composition and encouraging team play are basic duties of any guild leader. A guild leader isn't a control freak for doing this and the players following him aren't rabid dogs (MMO guilds are voluntary organizations unlike HC). It's their choice if they want a casual or cohesive play session. Also you're blaming the players for not liking TOE and leaving instead of TOE. Who are you going to blame after the Steam launch and TOE fails again?

I literally just said it was a faulted system in the post you quoted.  Those faults were fixable and workable, but the system as implemented was a disaster waiting to happen (as we've seen several years down the road).  I put as much blame on that as I do those persons refusal to work with it (since functionality was still achievable in its faulty state).  

 

Anything in reference to brigade warping could have been addressed anywhere from 1 month after TOEs were released to the announcement of 1.36.  Add a simple stacking restriction to a contested AO and voila, you can now drive up tanks from rearline towns to your heart's content.  In addition, movable brigades does nothing to prevent usage of terrain, encirclement, and bridges.  That literally makes no sense lol.  

 

I have been an officer in several MMO guilds.  It's funny how you speak of guild leaders "enforcing" team composition but then say they are voluntary organizations "unlike HC".  First, how can their be enforcement if it's strictly voluntary?  Those are mutually exclusive.  Second, HC is a volunteer organization so I'm not sure what you are getting at.  Guild leaders are not control freaks for doing that.  But that doesn't mean this game didn't control freaks in the form of the mega squad leaders.  

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Capco
2 hours ago, bmw said:

Yes...............not moving flags, not setting fallbacks that need to be set and re-set, not shifting resources up and down the line due to no HC on the night before, returning flags from training........Im sure there's more.  The 2 hrs or so I have a night to play it's not what I want to be doing........some love it, most dont.  Those who do are in the HC system and there are NOT alot so that speaks volumes too.

But in a nutshell.........Brigades just dont work anymore. Its a system of a game of the past that no longer works in todays game.

You're missing my point bmw.  You don't do any of those flag jobs now do you?  You aren't in HC. 

 

In the two hours you have, you set up FMS, guard CPs, and blow FBs when needed, right?  

 

What about when you join HC after flags are gone.  Are you going to create any more content during those two hours than you did before you joined HC?  You're going to be doing the same thing you do right now.  THAT'S my point.  

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Capco
2 hours ago, vasduten1 said:

@Capco

 

Dude... this is what most people deal with when playing as HC. I don't know how many accounts you ran at the time you were HC, but if the answer is "more than one, of course!" then you're WRONG.

 

Not even a hybrid system would help if it entails HC players paying for multiple accounts, or even having a FTP account for guarding. Selling the current sytem is like selling a car, only the car only runs on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. If you want to drive a car on the off days, you have to buy another car.

 

That's not a fair way to treat your volunteers who manage the game's supply for you... for FREE, then burn out because it's a fugging joke.

 

Just admit ToES has to go, and stop trying to defend it. You haven't even played since April 21st, yet here you are  repeating yourself over and over again about how ToES is somehow defensible and somehow added to the game.

I've said countless times it has to go.  This isn't about keeping TOEs; it's about setting the record straight and getting facts right.  A proper hybrid system doesn't even require HC 24/7, so naturally there'd be no minimum number of accounts needed lol.  

 

And for the love of Matildas, it's TOEs not ToES.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_organization_and_equipment

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Capco
57 minutes ago, saronin said:

Moveable supply as it exists in this game does everything to hurt doers and tactical leaders. Using the supply crutch allows a side to keep spamming in new supply no matter how bad the tactical situation is. No ZOC can hold up forever, especially against endless supply magically beamed into towns. The supply dynamic in game is a gamey system that has done way more harm than good.

I would be in board if brigades were moved up to the nearest town to a town in trouble and backline FBs were opened so that the rescuing of a town could be simulated. At least then it's honest. Rescuing forces would have to fight their way in from the field. With the current dynamic you can slap a whole division right in the middle of a town without them ever having been exposed to fire on the way in. 

The system made tactical leadership irrelevant in game. Attrition became a useless concept. The current strategy involves hopping AOs until you cap a spawn or catch the other side off guard and quickly over run them. Sustained fights are a rare occurrence now. 

I never said driving tanks from a back town was a tactical issue. It's not. It's a logistical issue. CRS dropped manual resupply in favor of a lazy system. The problem is that system brought with it some baggage that severely hurt tactical game play. 

It also hurt the game in other aspects. Lower equipment on the totem pole lost its value because higher equipment is always available to both sides. Seeing a tier 0 light tank is like seeing a unicorn. 

I think a big reason for the lack of attrition in the past year or two has been these large supply lists and large RDP timers combined with the 2 weekly server restarts.  TOEs was not designed with 2 weekly server restarts in mind, restarts that fill up all the brigades with full supply.  

 

But attrition and tactical leadership were absolutely in existence when I joined HC in 2011-2012 up until at least 2015.  DOC had his faults, but the one thing he was excellent at was adjusting the supply tables regularly to account for the waxing and waning of the player population.  This is something that current CRS is terrible at.  

 

So when you say attrition and tactical leadership and "doing" aren't possible in TOEs, I'm living proof that that isn't true because I've experience all those things first-hand.  

 

But it still needs to go in its current state!  I get that.  The current dynamics suck azz.  The last few campaigns have been a joke.  Even when I last played in HC in April, the level of (poor) gameplay was shocking to me.  

 

If the JWBS is the biggest issue people complain about, that's sooooo fixable without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  

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Capco

Additionally, as I'm sure you guys have picked up, a major reason for my support of TOEs is (in a way) side-biased.  TOEs helped the Allies level the playing field.  

 

I don't want a system where one side wins 60-70% of the time.  There is no such thing as a "game" when both sides don't have an equal shot at winning.  

 

A proper balancing mechanism to replace the potential balance that TOEs afforded is essential for the future of the game.  

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BLKHWK8

The other issue I have with town based supply of old was the Allies having 2 different countries and equipment. Especially with HE etc, while it was historical accurate that they didn't have both sets of equipment, this could be a strategy we as generals deploy.

Especially if the Italian equipment will be pushed into the German supply. Why not create a separate persona for that?

I remember days of hitting a town and screaming for French soldiers to get in the bunker so the town would get French equipment and not the brittish. (Brit armor back then was awful)

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delems

TOE is simply disgusting to me now.

Unlimited air, unlimited navy, and for the most part unlimited army supply.

Just now - allies get Halle beat up good - little behind it; bang, server reset and all new supply :(

If at least 1 flag doesn't get emptied per day (if not per AO), there is too much supply still.  Flags SHOULD run out - air, navy and army.

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delems

*** Allies having 2 different countries and equipment

They said all the allied towns would have 66% french supply and 33% brit, so every town will have everything.

I'd go 5/9 french 3/9 brit and 1/9 USA starting in tier 0 even - just to get a couple US solders on map.

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Capco
15 minutes ago, delems said:

They said all the allied towns would have 66% french supply and 33% brit, so every town will have everything.

Huh?  Link?  

 

Last thing I heard was that the Allies would have some minor flexibility in regards to determining their supply proportions.

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