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XOOM

Brigade Removal Frozen for Steam "Early Access"

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XOOM

Hello everyone,

Seems like when I decide not to check the forums for a week things start to get out of control. I had to take a couple of real days off, with the stress of everything going on and particularly Steam deployment, it was much needed.

I have indicated as much as I could have that 1.36 was very important to me and the rest of CRS, and that we recognize the value of working to improve our current conditions. We have been very open with communication and have taken direct suggestions to try and clamp the current issues we can reach.

Some folks are impatiently throwing their hands up wanting immediate results, I understand it, I was there. There are also some folks who question the value over Steam, which comes as a bit of a surprise, especially considering we are already generating 4 times the amount of traffic there in an un-released state, than we are with all other initiatives combined.

Please understand that we are listening to your feedback but we are trying to accomplish an integral mission that will bolster our player numbers and improve game play in such a way that many other things can not yet achieve.

If you've read my other posts here in this thread talking about the decision process, the reluctancy and difficulty of putting a halt to 1.36 and the justifications for doing so, then I am not sure what more to say because those things still stand true. 

We have been fighting a very hard battle to get to this point, and we're at the 10 yard line to finally scoring our touch down. Why are you giving up now? We have not given up internally, quite the opposite. Hold the line.

Continue to communicate, present solutions, stomping your feet doesn't achieve much and it isn't actionable. Stomping your feet louder in dismay doesn't change out comes, but do please know, we hear you.

My plate is maxed out right now with stuff to do, I hope this acknowledgement helps a little.

S! 

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Capco

Thanks for dropping us a line Xoom.  We were getting worried about ya.  Glad to hear you took a few days off too!  We need your batteries fully charged.  

 

S!

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delems

I know what you're saying zoom, but I don't get it.  We keep playing, trying and hoping.

Then ya go and cut the RDP timers in half basically, making a hell awful supply situation even worse, what gives?

Anyways, lag is bad last few days, not sure why - and this supply is ridiculous - taking a few days off.

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XOOM

Our intention of bringing the rebuild timers down for expended supply was to help improve the supply situation around the clock so that late night rolls wouldn't be such a bad thing. Particularly in TZ3 where supply would've been exhausted from a whole days worth of fighting.

That suggestion derived from this very forum thread, and is now being stated as incomplete or half listening. Nothing like being blamed for trying to do the right thing. Ultimately, we are responsible for making game play change calls at the end of the day, and we will take that into consideration moving forward more carefully.

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SCKING

Friday developer update get canceled?

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XOOM
2 minutes ago, Scking said:

Friday developer update get canceled?

Nope, I am just coming back from taking a couple of much needed days off.

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david01

 

AO placement is entirely HC-run, so if AOs prevent brigade rotation in to a town HC will be able to cockblock the opposing team's supply movements. This will favor the side with the more experienced HC, and make the limited 2-AO periods much more powerful than the 1-AO periods. System-placed AOs will become a major missed opportunity instead of something relatively benign. It's probably going to increase rather than decrease the HC workload. 

 

If you wanted to prevent an AO-d town from rotating in brigades you would kick the linking depots at least 500m out from the army base. Make them little alamos like some of the depots in big cities, but however it's done they need to be a realistic objective that an attacker can hold. For awhile I never understood why this wasn't done especially since Doc spent hours rebuilding the towns and terrain, but again allowing the tactical situation to stop the strategic mechanics goes against the goal of TOE.

 

54 minutes ago, XOOM said:

Our intention of bringing the rebuild timers down for expended supply was to help improve the supply situation around the clock so that late night rolls wouldn't be such a bad thing. Particularly in TZ3 where supply would've been exhausted from a whole days worth of fighting.

That suggestion derived from this very forum thread, and is now being stated as incomplete or half listening. Nothing like being blamed for trying to do the right thing. Ultimately, we are responsible for making game play change calls at the end of the day, and we will take that into consideration moving forward more carefully.

This feedback thread isn't homogeneous. On the first page Capco recommended decreasing the RDP timers, and Delems warn against decreasing the RDP timers without also cutting the supply.

 

Also depending on the activity during US prime a reduction in RDP timers could increase the late night rolls. A huge element in the "TZ3 problem" for years was aggressive action by the allies that seemed sensible during US prime, but hours later supply would come back and axis could counter any breakthroughs, or make their own due to an overextended allied line. Of course long resupply timers also cause late night rolls because a whole time zone doesn't have anything to defend with. Hence the unworkable and unfixable nature of TOE.

Edited by david01

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Capco
22 minutes ago, david01 said:

This feedback thread isn't homogeneous. On the first page Capco recommended decreasing the RDP timers, and Delems warn against decreasing the RDP timers without also cutting the supply.

 

On 5/28/2017 at 6:50 PM, Capco said:

No coding required

  • Reduce resupply timers to 8 hours
    • Each TZ effectively has its own supply to work with
    • Overall supply numbers in brigades may need tweaking after this change
  • Lengthen trickle timers after brigade movements
    • Mitigates effects of flag stacking brigade warping
  • Lengthen flag movement timers to 45min backline / 90min frontline
    • Lessens total amount of movement
    • Decreases potential breakouts
    • Increases the time it takes to fix bad flag placement (this is a negative)

Notice the bold?  That part of the suggestion was in fact homogeneous.  Everyone was in agreement that supply needed to be tweaked because it's pretty obvious.

 

The problem with 15 hour timers is that one TZ's actions last into another TZ's play.  People were calling for supply during TZ2 just because most of the premium gear was used up during TZ1 and wouldn't return until TZ3.  It was bad for the game, and multiple people offered the same suggestions about it.  

 

Also notice how I recommended to lengthen the movement timers and CRS did the opposite, against the recommendations of every MOIC who responded to the thread that announced the changes.  Not a single person thought lowering the movement timers was a good idea before the idea was even implemented.  

 

And in reference to stacking penalties/restrictions, I would like to see something a little more dynamic than a simple AO-based restriction for the same reasons you listed @david01.  Imo, the movement restriction should be based on if the town is contested, or if you wanna get even spicier, link it to the City CP to actually give the City CP some level of importance.  

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potthead
4 hours ago, XOOM said:

Hello everyone,

Seems like when I decide not to check the forums for a week things start to get out of control. I had to take a couple of real days off, with the stress of everything going on and particularly Steam deployment, it was much needed.

I have indicated as much as I could have that 1.36 was very important to me and the rest of CRS, and that we recognize the value of working to improve our current conditions. We have been very open with communication and have taken direct suggestions to try and clamp the current issues we can reach.

Some folks are impatiently throwing their hands up wanting immediate results, I understand it, I was there. There are also some folks who question the value over Steam, which comes as a bit of a surprise, especially considering we are already generating 4 times the amount of traffic there in an un-released state, than we are with all other initiatives combined.

Please understand that we are listening to your feedback but we are trying to accomplish an integral mission that will bolster our player numbers and improve game play in such a way that many other things can not yet achieve.

If you've read my other posts here in this thread talking about the decision process, the reluctancy and difficulty of putting a halt to 1.36 and the justifications for doing so, then I am not sure what more to say because those things still stand true. 

We have been fighting a very hard battle to get to this point, and we're at the 10 yard line to finally scoring our touch down. Why are you giving up now? We have not given up internally, quite the opposite. Hold the line.

Continue to communicate, present solutions, stomping your feet doesn't achieve much and it isn't actionable. Stomping your feet louder in dismay doesn't change out comes, but do please know, we hear you.

My plate is maxed out right now with stuff to do, I hope this acknowledgement helps a little.

S! 

Go XOOM! 

You should be rewarded some sort of a business award mate. I am sure you will save this game.  

Sorry if the camp of "remove TOE" is stomping  feet worse than anti-fa at this moment, but this announcement was more painful to me than Trump winning presidency news was for rioters.... I felt like a melting snowflake ... and acted like one too (OUCH, sorrier than Kathy Griffin now)

All chilled out now... still PLAYING the game, doing my best to make it fun for myself and others with WHATEVER mechanics available.

I personally believe I can facilitate more fun to everyone without TOE or some hybrid TOE (in civil simple terms) and I believe I can still facilitate FUN with TOE but it is much harder for me to do.

Thanks again for all your hard work -- I along with some others have to remember ... this game is ALIVE NOW .. thanks to you... TOE or whatever... it is ALIVE and  that in itself is the BIGGEST MOST IMPORTANT HUGE FACT!   you have kept a dead man (wwiionline) alive for so much longer on life support and that is just amazing mate! I was just getting excited as looked like for a moment the patient is coming out of the coma but looks like NOT YET.. but HOPE is still there :)  We will stay by the bedside of this patient we LOVE ... and we will talk to him until either YOU bring it out of the coma or make him wake up and be with us again!  (tears in my eyes) 

S!  Potthead

 

 

 

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vasduten1
4 hours ago, XOOM said:

Hello everyone,

Seems like when I decide not to check the forums for a week things start to get out of control. I had to take a couple of real days off, with the stress of everything going on and particularly Steam deployment, it was much needed.

I have indicated as much as I could have that 1.36 was very important to me and the rest of CRS, and that we recognize the value of working to improve our current conditions. We have been very open with communication and have taken direct suggestions to try and clamp the current issues we can reach.

Some folks are impatiently throwing their hands up wanting immediate results, I understand it, I was there. There are also some folks who question the value over Steam, which comes as a bit of a surprise, especially considering we are already generating 4 times the amount of traffic there in an un-released state, than we are with all other initiatives combined.

Please understand that we are listening to your feedback but we are trying to accomplish an integral mission that will bolster our player numbers and improve game play in such a way that many other things can not yet achieve.

If you've read my other posts here in this thread talking about the decision process, the reluctancy and difficulty of putting a halt to 1.36 and the justifications for doing so, then I am not sure what more to say because those things still stand true. 

We have been fighting a very hard battle to get to this point, and we're at the 10 yard line to finally scoring our touch down. Why are you giving up now? We have not given up internally, quite the opposite. Hold the line.

Continue to communicate, present solutions, stomping your feet doesn't achieve much and it isn't actionable. Stomping your feet louder in dismay doesn't change out comes, but do please know, we hear you.

My plate is maxed out right now with stuff to do, I hope this acknowledgement helps a little.

S! 

Thanks for stopping in, XOOM. 

 

I understand that the plate is overflowing, and you are all working hard to do what you feel needs to be done.

 

I'm still worried, because the mechanics that negatively affect the game are still here; still causing us all headaches.

 

I'm content to wait until after the Steam release, and will keep on paying for as long as I can. 

 

I HATE TOEs. 

 

I don't like what it's done to the game, and even more so what it does to us all when populations are at historic lows.

I'll bide my time.

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saronin
8 hours ago, kazee said:

Speaking of the topic where HC or large squads decide on what town to attack, I remember very well we had this issue many many years ago.

Schilling (ex-GHC CinC) and channel 94 butted heads several times on this issue, and channel 94 went Allied for a few maps because they didnt want to follow GHC advice or suggestions. 

Now it is a delicate issue and I can see both sides of the issue here; personally if I was in HC and large squads wanted to attack a certain town, I would let them do whatever they wanted and try to make sure they had supply. My main goal would be to keep them online as long as possible and to achieve as many caps as possible even if its not in the right area of the map, my job as HC officer would be to shift things around to where they wanted to attack.

But it is a balancing act and takes a person that is a good negotiator and also a good listener. Schilling was a great guy but a bit abrasive at times and drove channel 94 off and the Axis lost campaigns as a result. 

Final comment is: lets change the rules to NOT allowing a flag to move into a town that is contested  

You know it's funny that the 94th got brought up in this thread.  A bit of history.  The whole thing started with Deadlock running a tank column up north.  We used channel 91 to coordinate.  The column kept getting bigger and bigger and we rolled a bunch of towns.  The same group showed up the next night and so on.  GHC (Shilling) told us we couldn't use 91 because it was a Kreigmarine channel.  We went to 92.  Got told that one was something else. 93. Same.  Ended up on 94 and named a squad after it.  94th did quite well rolling towns.  Shilling was apparently not a fan because he wasn't running the show and that when the head bumping started.  One night Deadlock got fed up and announced that he would see us on the Allied side.  The Axis lost that map.  The Allies went on a run of maps.  Good times.  Many DAC attacks. Ahhh the 94th Locusts... memories. 

Edited by saronin

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major0noob
2 hours ago, Capco said:

The problem with 15 hour timers is that one TZ's actions last into another TZ's play.  People were calling for supply during TZ2 just because most of the premium gear was used up during TZ1 and wouldn't return until TZ3.  It was bad for the game, and multiple people offered the same suggestions about it.  

why is this a bad thing? it the supplies weren't that low. about 50 units on average, and only in a few flags there were still 40 fresh flags.

our performance had a effect on the map, flooding into a CP was punished with low supply, setting up a ZOC was rewarded with less resistance later on.

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Mosizlak
41 minutes ago, saronin said:

You know it's funny that the 94th got brought up in this thread.  A bit of history.  The whole thing started with Deadlock running a tank column up north.  We used channel 91 to coordinate.  The column kept getting bigger and bigger and we rolled a bunch of towns.  The same group showed up the next night and so on.  GHC (Shilling) told us we couldn't use 91 because it was a Kreigmarine channel.  We went to 92.  Got told that one was something else. 93. Same.  Ended up on 94 and named a squad after it.  94th did quite well rolling towns.  Shilling was apparently not a fan because he wasn't running the show and that when the head bumping started.  One night Deadlock got fed up and announced that he would see us on the Allied side.  The Axis lost that map.  The Allies went on a run of maps.  Good times.  Many DAC attacks. Ahhh the 94th Locusts... memories. 

Someone told me Deadlock is doing hard time for armed robbery LOL. 

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sorella
42 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

Someone told me Deadlock is doing hard time for armed robbery LOL. 

armed robbery with a squad or solo? 

 

come back soon Moz.

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Mosizlak
12 minutes ago, sorella said:

armed robbery with a squad or solo? 

 

come back soon Moz.

LOL didn't get any details just that he was in the big house for armed bank robbery HAHAHA.

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saronin
2 hours ago, Mosizlak said:

Someone told me Deadlock is doing hard time for armed robbery LOL. 

I heard that too.

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Mosizlak
4 minutes ago, saronin said:

I heard that too.

Maybe by the time he gets out the flag system will be gone HAHAHA

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zbus

So tonight as we speak the Allies got some  brigades cutoff which are now  going to training and HC  just logged.  So no one to move flags  to readjust the remaining brigades to compensate. And this right here is why I hate TOE/HC system. I can handle they made a bonehead move and did not see the cut off coming  honest mistake but to leave after that with no replacement is pretty bad. Heck I am a old timer so I have seen it before but imagine what this will look like to new steam players. /Shrug  

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Silky
16 minutes ago, zbus said:

So tonight as we speak the Allies got some  brigades cutoff which are now  going to training and HC  just logged.  So no one to move flags  to readjust the remaining brigades to compensate. And this right here is why I hate TOE/HC system. I can handle they made a bonehead move and did not see the cut off coming  honest mistake but to leave after that with no replacement is pretty bad. Heck I am a old timer so I have seen it before but imagine what this will look like to new steam players. /Shrug  

If the TOEs system had been designed with the ability for a HC player to plan and pre-load moves that execute when timers allow, this wouldn't be an issue.

Many of the problems associated with TOEs comes down to design choices, in the system itself and the tools available for this 'leadership' tier of player. Removing moveable supply units from the map makes the game less complex, and more one-dimensional, which I believe is a negative move, but I do recognise the need to do something, because the initial design of TOEs contained some major flaws that now manifest themselves in a game that sometimes doesn't work.

 

We seem to be moving towards throwing baby out with bath water, whereas I believe we could keep the positive aspects of moveable supply by correcting those design flaws.

  • Pre-planned moves that execute when timers allow
  • Permit HC to set fallbacks through code not through moving units
  • Provide better AO planning through a useful tools set - annotated maps, squad comms tools, ML comms tools
  • Improved chat channels, eg macro commands (to loop instructions), more flexible chat commands (don't limit to 6)
  • Provide rear line units that can move freely to cover holes and flanks via No Mans
  • Make these rear line units huge supply pools so all equipment is available to those willing to drive from rear

 

6 moves that would keep the flexible, interesting elements of the system we have but also uplift the way the game plays and prevents the worst falling down moments

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zbus

Maybe so Silky  though I do disagree with you on it making the game less complex. Squads used to put a ton of planning into Ops at least on the tactical level which is what this game is missing in spades. Heck I know it is a numbers game and i even enjoy the challenge of  being underpop but this part of it is what makes me wonder why I bothered to come back. 

 

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wockawocka
19 hours ago, Silky said:

...

And the key aspect in reality is that the game should reward the players more, in terms of increasing survivability and allowing more players more chance to feel like they're actively engaged in a battle before they're killed and that session ends.

 

To really capture players, there's got to be more to the game than spawn in, run around a bit, then die to an enemy you don't see, didn't know was there, before you've even fired a shot

This could actually be the one important thing to look at. So in a way, while we try to improve HC-mechanism, we could try stuff like: Let all enemies have a visible tag for one campaign, and try that with the steamers. But for it to be effective (and cool) we probably need a bigger population when active... *thoughts wanding off in what it could mean*

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Capco
6 hours ago, major0noob said:

why is this a bad thing? it the supplies weren't that low. about 50 units on average, and only in a few flags there were still 40 fresh flags.

our performance had a effect on the map, flooding into a CP was punished with low supply, setting up a ZOC was rewarded with less resistance later on.

It's a bad thing because localized attrition can still be achieved without borking people 15 hours later on down the road simply by making the spawn lists smaller and letting them regenerate faster.

 

The effects you described were a function of the lists being too big in general.

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Silky
56 minutes ago, zbus said:

Maybe so Silky  though I do disagree with you on it making the game less complex. Squads used to put a ton of planning into Ops at least on the tactical level which is what this game is missing in spades. Heck I know it is a numbers game and i even enjoy the challenge of  being underpop but this part of it is what makes me wonder why I bothered to come back. 

 

I mean complex on a strategic level. The tactics of taking a town probably don't differ that much from town-based vs TOEs, bar the depot/rotations etc but it's been a while since attrition and JWBS was really an issue stopping largely successful attacks from succeeding.

 

I'm talking the strategic, campaign game.With town-based supply, it can be battle/rinse/repeat as you're taking a fluid environment (think soccer/rugby) and making it a more deliberate, static, staged environment (think American football). I'd call this loss of fluidity and dynamism less complex than a map where the set up and the supply used to support attacks varies every single set up

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zbus

The current set up is more akin to a tag team wrestling match with  one fighter fighting till he gets tired then swapping out with his team mate.  Its a rotating door that never stops turning. If the numbers are even the map becomes  stagnate. It takes large swings in overpop to even move anything. Want to know how many allies we had on just a sec ago  6 people  that's total  on the allied side.  Now I am a good sport about stuff like this but lets get real this is the state the system we currently have has left  us in.  I could argue that the only thing TOE and HC have done for the player base is remove their freedom of choice for what they  do while in game for the $ 15 bucks  they spend. Now they get to spend it  watching the HC  play chess  if they even show up for the match that is.

 

 

   

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major0noob
1 hour ago, Capco said:

It's a bad thing because localized attrition can still be achieved without borking people 15 hours later on down the road simply by making the spawn lists smaller and letting them regenerate faster.

 

The effects you described were a function of the lists being too big in general.

 

i've never seen attrition work with the 8 hour timers.

 

"localized attrition" ? its just battle damage. empty a flag in prime time then rotate it, repeat endlessly and we have our current 3 hour stalemates. then do it all over again the next prime time, then the next, till the game bogs down to "flood the CP"

nothing else matters beyond "flood the CP"... game difficulty, simulation, combined arms, teamwork, positioning and manouver? all pointless... just flood the CP like a bunch of zombies in COD

 

rotate flags with 15 hour timers and you'll lose, not from the system or HC but because of the players performance and good gameplay. having no supply in a flag was the result of better play from the enemy.

Edited by major0noob
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