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Brigade Removal Frozen for Steam "Early Access"

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Mosizlak
6 minutes ago, saronin said:

The people that run the system do not always show up, which is in fact game breaking.  Again, no ideas to fix the short comings of the current system.  Just plea to keep the status quo. 

Pretty much. 

The HC guys enjoy when they log in. What happens when they don't ?   

Before Steam and the player influx, we had no HC on EVERY DAY. Sometimes for 3+ hours. 

Again, a system based on player volunteers is totally flawed in it's design. 

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saronin
48 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

Pretty much. 

The HC guys enjoy when they log in. What happens when they don't ?   

Before Steam and the player influx, we had no HC on EVERY DAY. Sometimes for 3+ hours. 

Again, a system based on player volunteers is totally flawed in it's design. 

The truth is that I would love to find a good way to convince the RATS to keep a good strat layer in this game by finding ways to fix the current system.  The problem is that whenever you throw out ideas to fix the system there is nothing but push back with no real good ideas coming from the people who claim to love the current system so much.  They would rather be critical of any idea thrown out there than help by coming up with some good ideas.  That just leads me to believe that all they really want is the status quo.  I am done trying to come up with ideas.  I accept the RATS decision.

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delems

I abhor town supply, but it seems it is better than TOE as it exists today.

Said many times, we need good ideas to fix the TOE system, it is for sure a better system if it can be done right.

1) Disallow all inter division stacking (1pz may stack with nothing but 1pz).

2) Disallow all HQs moving to front line.

3) Move timers, much longer, start with 2 hours and 1 hour (front/back).

4) Either remove move restrictions and fallbacks completely (flags can move independent of each other or/ always fall back to the most E/W town).

or

5) give a simple way for HC to set fallbacks for a flag - fallbacks are easily the worst part of the flag system currently.

6) Maybe add another flag to all divisions, a 'recon' flag, this would be 1/3 the supply of a regular INF flag.

7) Give a way for squads to be part of a division, and that squad CO, if no HC on, can move that divisions flags.

8) Give squads there own flag, make it small, 1 platoon if need at start (52 troops).

9) Make small town garrison flags, again, 1 platoon of supply maybe (52 troops), these flags appear 1 hour after a town is taken.

 

Prolly other ideas too, but there are ways to save TOE I think, it is a better system w/o any doubt imo, if it can be built right.

One might be have different division makeup, INF div would be 3 inf flags, 1 recon flag and HQ; while tank div might be 2 INF flags and 2 ARM flags w/1 recon and HQ.

 

Edited by delems
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vasduten1

OK, so....

 

We've gotten through the Steam release.

 

 

What's the ETA on removing TOEs and adding the new units?

The HE audit is ready.

 

kip-dancing.gif

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pbveteran

It's pathetic the removal of flags is on the table by CRS.. while Warthunder is bringing "flags" and the ability to own resources and make wars with attrition in their new world at war mode, one less reason for subscribe and another step backwards when it comes to competitiveness and keeping WW2ol relevant.

The removal should be of HC and their monopoly on brigade and strategic movements.

We all can see how Intermission usually suck when we have unlimited supply, battles become meaningless and feel all the same, a pure grindfests this will recreated the same intermission feeling.

Edited by pbveteran

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saronin
21 minutes ago, pbveteran said:

It's pathetic the removal of flags is on the table by CRS.. while Warthunder is bringing "flags" and the ability to own resources and make wars with attrition in their new world at war mode, one less reason for subscribe and another step backwards when it comes to competitiveness and keeping WW2ol relevant.

The removal should be of HC and their monopoly on brigade and strategic movements.

We all can see how Intermission usually suck when we have unlimited supply, battles become meaningless and feel all the same, a pure grindfests this will recreated the same intermission feeling.

Who would move brigades if not HC?

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Capco
1 hour ago, saronin said:

The truth is that I would love to find a good way to convince the RATS to keep a good strat layer in this game by finding ways to fix the current system.  The problem is that whenever you throw out ideas to fix the system there is nothing but push back with no real good ideas coming from the people who claim to love the current system so much.  They would rather be critical of any idea thrown out there than help by coming up with some good ideas.  That just leads me to believe that all they really want is the status quo.  I am done trying to come up with ideas.  I accept the RATS decision.

Huh?  That is insane.  Where are all these people saying TOEs is perfect as is?  Since TOEs inception people have been begging for improvements for HC/squad tools.  

 

Do you make this stuff up as you go along?

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saronin
2 hours ago, Capco said:

Huh?  That is insane.  Where are all these people saying TOEs is perfect as is?  Since TOEs inception people have been begging for improvements for HC/squad tools.  

 

Do you make this stuff up as you go along?

Any idea other than the status quo is immediately criticized with no real ideas offered in response. 

What improvements?  What tools? What you just just said is vague crap. What I see a lot of is make it more better with no specifics. 

Edited by saronin
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saronin
4 hours ago, delems said:

I abhor town supply, but it seems it is better than TOE as it exists today.

Said many times, we need good ideas to fix the TOE system, it is for sure a better system if it can be done right.

1) Disallow all inter division stacking (1pz may stack with nothing but 1pz).

2) Disallow all HQs moving to front line.

3) Move timers, much longer, start with 2 hours and 1 hour (front/back).

4) Either remove move restrictions and fallbacks completely (flags can move independent of each other or/ always fall back to the most E/W town).

or

5) give a simple way for HC to set fallbacks for a flag - fallbacks are easily the worst part of the flag system currently.

6) Maybe add another flag to all divisions, a 'recon' flag, this would be 1/3 the supply of a regular INF flag.

7) Give a way for squads to be part of a division, and that squad CO, if no HC on, can move that divisions flags.

8) Give squads there own flag, make it small, 1 platoon if need at start (52 troops).

9) Make small town garrison flags, again, 1 platoon of supply maybe (52 troops), these flags appear 1 hour after a town is taken.

 

Prolly other ideas too, but there are ways to save TOE I think, it is a better system w/o any doubt imo, if it can be built right.

One might be have different division makeup, INF div would be 3 inf flags, 1 recon flag and HQ; while tank div might be 2 INF flags and 2 ARM flags w/1 recon and HQ.

 

Simple solutions are the best here.  Garrison supply in every town.  Keep TOEs over top.  When an AO gets put on a town FBs from near by towns open up and a movement timer kicks on the town that was AOed.   Make it so supply can't be moved into the town for 3 hours after the AO was put on town.  That should allow for interdiction missions again while preventing permanent AOs just to suppress movement.  If you can't take a town in 3 hours that is your problem.  New supply can be moved in after that.

 

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zbus
4 hours ago, Capco said:

Huh?  That is insane.  Where are all these people saying TOEs is perfect as is?  Since TOEs inception people have been begging for improvements for HC/squad tools.  

 

Do you make this stuff up as you go along?

Correction since its inception people have been asking  for TOE/HC's removal. Squad tools was just a lame suggestion by those wanting to keep  TOE/HC after they saw what it did to player population  and squad play after being implemented. I remember the flame wars on these very forums almost daily by squads begging Killer to change his mind about the topic.  

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king4t

Magic brigade warping was, to me at least, always more a problem of too much supply across the front. There was little risk in moving supply from any area as by the time the enemy has responded, even more supply could be moved over. With 4/5/6 AOs this seemed, last map at least, to be much less of an issue.

 

The shorter back line timer also seemed to me to work well. I'd be interested to hear how the HCs found it, but from the outside it appears that there was less risk of a serious mistake and more possibility to cover any mistakes. Break throughs being a little harder really helped both sides when they were being forced back as well.

 

So I am interested to find out what the current main problems are, as people see them?

 

Anyway, I'd MUCH rather see the flags stay. A small garrison in each town though would be a great addition.

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pbveteran
9 hours ago, saronin said:

Who would move brigades if not HC?

Ever played heroes and generals ?.. anyway already told what I want in the previous page(s)

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smythes
3 hours ago, king4t said:

Magic brigade warping was, to me at least, always more a problem of too much supply across the front. There was little risk in moving supply from any area as by the time the enemy has responded, even more supply could be moved over. With 4/5/6 AOs this seemed, last map at least, to be much less of an issue.

 

The shorter back line timer also seemed to me to work well. I'd be interested to hear how the HCs found it, but from the outside it appears that there was less risk of a serious mistake and more possibility to cover any mistakes. Break throughs being a little harder really helped both sides when they were being forced back as well.

 

So I am interested to find out what the current main problems are, as people see them?

 

Anyway, I'd MUCH rather see the flags stay. A small garrison in each town though would be a great addition.

^ Very valid point. We actually now have attrition working as the game is populated to a degree. However, of course, if population goes again we are back at square one.

It is a complex one to resolve forward though. People say "give the game back to the Squads!" but then I think, who is in the HC? Squad members! 

I guess it is a.) the system is complex (tools would help to make it easier and less predicated with people with the right brain for the commands and map management) b.) Human nature - who wants to do what someone else says right?

With regards to B.) I think there needs to be a way to tie squads (if they want it..if they will all come flooding back) to the map and positive progress in game. Pep points for acheiving certain map objectives, bragging rights for example as you need to get control of the human condition and direct it.

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matamor

JWBS on his last run. Just 11 yearzzz too late. 

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saronin
6 hours ago, king4t said:

Magic brigade warping was, to me at least, always more a problem of too much supply across the front. There was little risk in moving supply from any area as by the time the enemy has responded, even more supply could be moved over. With 4/5/6 AOs this seemed, last map at least, to be much less of an issue.

 

The shorter back line timer also seemed to me to work well. I'd be interested to hear how the HCs found it, but from the outside it appears that there was less risk of a serious mistake and more possibility to cover any mistakes. Break throughs being a little harder really helped both sides when they were being forced back as well.

 

So I am interested to find out what the current main problems are, as people see them?

 

Anyway, I'd MUCH rather see the flags stay. A small garrison in each town though would be a great addition.

I disagree here. Magic brigade warping is a problem no matter what the supply situation is. Brigades can generally move fast enough to get to a town that has been under attack for awhile. In any solution hybrid, town supply, or otherwise it is a dynamic that has to end or be kept to a minimum. 

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Merlin51
21 hours ago, saronin said:

This is one of TOEs most ardent supporters saying HC "needs a break" between campaigns.  HC should never "need a break" from the game.  XOOM stated HC is effectively over worked and there is a high turn over rate of HC players as a result.  Even the people who support TOEs apparently get tired running the system.  Defend the system all you like but XOOM was right. 

After 71 days, most everyone needs a break for a day or 2 of sillyness, training sessions, relaxing etc i think.
If you never look beyond the current battle? perhaps not so much but for all of those besides HC that are trying to see the map, see what going on
plan out what to do work out strategies, etc, yea i'd say an intermission is needed?

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Merlin51
19 hours ago, saronin said:

The truth is that I would love to find a good way to convince the RATS to keep a good strat layer in this game by finding ways to fix the current system.  The problem is that whenever you throw out ideas to fix the system there is nothing but push back with no real good ideas coming from the people who claim to love the current system so much.  They would rather be critical of any idea thrown out there than help by coming up with some good ideas.  That just leads me to believe that all they really want is the status quo.  I am done trying to come up with ideas.  I accept the RATS decision.

What do you mean no real good ideas?

ALL Brigade movements based on distance - no warping, if it takes 10 game hours to get from A to B, then the brigade is in transit 10 game hours

Rear guard contingent in towns not hosting a brigade - unopposed softcaps unless the defending side decides it isnt worth the resources etc.

Various suggestions on how players / squads could assume temporary control of the map when needed

AO/Contention locks town, no brigades may enter, only retreat, no direct supply swapping

Rear town FB's active during an AO (which is the only way to bring in outside help if you have AO lock)

Brigade diversity, where there is more than just 2 ground unit templates so that the unit make up varies widely

None of those are good ideas?

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saronin
10 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

What do you mean no real good ideas?

ALL Brigade movements based on distance - no warping, if it takes 10 game hours to get from A to B, then the brigade is in transit 10 game hours

Rear guard contingent in towns not hosting a brigade - unopposed softcaps unless the defending side decides it isnt worth the resources etc.

Various suggestions on how players / squads could assume temporary control of the map when needed

AO/Contention locks town, no brigades may enter, only retreat, no direct supply swapping

Rear town FB's active during an AO (which is the only way to bring in outside help if you have AO lock)

Brigade diversity, where there is more than just 2 ground unit templates so that the unit make up varies widely

None of those are good ideas?

Those are good except they have mostly come from the two of us.

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Merlin51

There are XXXX number of game players
there are X number that actually use or read the forums

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saronin
2 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

There are XXXX number of game players
there are X number that actually use or read the forums

I'm really talking about the X number that actually use or read the forums.  I see that vast majority of X complaining about the status quo without providing real solutions.

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major0noob

undo changes...

just like the 09

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saronin
3 minutes ago, major0noob said:

undo changes...

just like the 09

Or we could think of a way forward...?

 

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Merlin51
44 minutes ago, saronin said:

I'm really talking about the X number that actually use or read the forums.  I see that vast majority of X complaining about the status quo without providing real solutions.

because the large portion of X probably consists of those who just want a plane to whine, doesn't matter what the whine is about?

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king4t
4 hours ago, saronin said:

I disagree here. Magic brigade warping is a problem no matter what the supply situation is. Brigades can generally move fast enough to get to a town that has been under attack for awhile. In any solution hybrid, town supply, or otherwise it is a dynamic that has to end or be kept to a minimum. 

 

Of course the problem is about supply. If each flag had 2 infantry in it then I wouldn't mind if the other HC moved in 100 flags. If each flag contained 100 heavy tanks, then it would likely be attack over if they moved 1 flag in. You get this concept, right?

 

Now, when there are only a couple of active AOs on the map this means that with very little risk, a HC can rotate in and out several divisions of supply every couple of hours. With enough AOs, it is possible to achieve targeted attrition of a whole area, to use AOs to pin enemy flags in place and force a situation whereby the local advantages of multiple links or a supply stack can be exploited.

 

With the greater numbers recently has come a boost to supply per flag. Yet not enough to prevent large areas from being heavily depleted for many hours at a time. This I would call a success. If the defender moves too many flags into a town under heavy attack then they risk losing a whole sector of the map. This risk vs reward simply wasn't the case with a lower population because CRS felt unable to reduce the supply enough due(in part) to the already low ratios of certain equipment.

 

You keep insisting that those that feel TOEs should stay, need to come up with ideas to save them. Well I see several good suggestions above, so I ask you again: Do you not feel that some of the main issues have already been improved by a greater number of players? Given the serious needs across this game for modernisation/fixes etc that removal of TOEs should really be top of the list considering the extensive work involved?

 

As I said before, I like the idea of a small garrison supply to give variety to play, and most importantly, end pure softcaps as a thing.

I'd also like to see an end to the map edge cuts, or at least make flanking moves viable.

The HC interface needs to be more user friendly. And communication and organisational tools need to be introduced, in game.

I could go on. There ARE multiple things that can be improved.

 

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king4t
8 hours ago, smythes said:

^ Very valid point. We actually now have attrition working as the game is populated to a degree. However, of course, if population goes again we are back at square one.

It is a complex one to resolve forward though. People say "give the game back to the Squads!" but then I think, who is in the HC? Squad members! 

I guess it is a.) the system is complex (tools would help to make it easier and less predicated with people with the right brain for the commands and map management) b.) Human nature - who wants to do what someone else says right?

With regards to B.) I think there needs to be a way to tie squads (if they want it..if they will all come flooding back) to the map and positive progress in game. Pep points for acheiving certain map objectives, bragging rights for example as you need to get control of the human condition and direct it.

If any squad or organised group doesn't get an AO when they request it, then something is wrong. Like you say though, someone has to sit at the top of the decision tree. Whether that person be labelled HC or squad leader makes little difference, except that only one has pledged to be accountable to the whole side and not just a select group. Now that we seem to be having between 6-12 flashing boxes on the map to choose from, surely every group can find their niche.

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