sorella

The Destruction of Army Group North

74 posts in this topic

Flags...

 

Ruining the game since inception... One can only wonder what the game would of been if all the resources devoted to the toe development and now removal had been used elsewhere.  Well at least no one will ever touch that idea again.  

 

Looking forward to what the steam users are gonna think of this.  Gonna be a hoot when they see the monthly sub alone lol.

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1 hour ago, bmw said:

I would say both but mainly deployments.  Axis tried something different. It didnt work and we paid for it.  It is what it is, you just plod thru it and do the best you can.

Curious to see what would have happened if allies went with standard deployment as well.

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1 hour ago, vasduten1 said:

Rots, I'm also disappointed in this map, and in the live test.

 

Last campaign was really very fun, even in the end when the Axis were pushed all the way east. 

 

The decreased timers showed just how much they can affect the map in 16 hrs of the campaign. Once GHC logged off, and nobody was on, The Allies big plan, (deployment,) became a non-issue; the flags were stacked, and if there was no way to get to where they wanted, they could simply wait a half hour and move on.

Sure, the GHC deployments tossed a can of fuel on this fire, as poor choices of deployment often do, but really... NO HC IS ON WHEN IT MATTERS AND THE MAP IS LOST.

 

 

I'll REPEAT: When the game's outcomes and supply availability is dependent on a dozen or so players to be on 24/7, and when they're not on disasters happen, (like I need to illustrate this any further, as EVERY map makes this painfully clear,) the game suffers and people leave.

They just go elsewhere. Even if they don't unsub, they are off playing H1Z!: KOTK.

 

Like all of DDz was the past couple of nights.

I managed to get in game here for a little bit Sunday, but after the cut, nobody wanted to play. I went to join them in KOTK and we had big fun instead.

 

Yesterday, DNS issues kept me and many other away. 

 

 

I have no problem trying new timer settings out, but the idea that "AHC had a master stroke of genius in deployments" and this alone is what made this map go so quickly is absolutely ridiculous.

 

Wow, so 2% of the game's paying population had fun moving flags around. WHOOPETY DOO!

 

The rest of us suffer.

 

 

ToEs need to come out. It's been killing the game since inception, and there is NO justification to keep it. There hasn't been justification, ever.

Even at it's height, having the game's population rely solely on flag movements with plenty of HC officers on has been nothing but a giant hassle.

 

Those who sit here and defend the system as is, or their involvement in HC need to get out side their bubble and see what the rest of us see:

 

We've got this combined arms MMOFPS that promises all sorts of fun and action, but in metaphorical terms, there's the physical embodiment of the board game Risk face sitting on the player base like a 400 lb dominatrix with a peaked vinyl officer's cap smothering the life out of it.

 

ToEs is a succubus, and HC flag moving games need to go. It's BS.

 

Obvious over the past few years, and when the timers get cut, this is like going from waterboarding to just being submerged.

 

 

I'm still paying a sub, and I'm waiting for the HE audit to be implemented. 

They need to fix the basics of the game before they wiggle knobs and pull levers.

 

 

I think a map reset is on order.

 

I really don't care that HC had fun playing around with map deployment: the majority of us do no enjoy this,

 

 

I stole your backpack while you were having DNS issues. 

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1 hour ago, sg1 said:

Flags...

 

Ruining the game since inception... One can only wonder what the game would of been if all the resources devoted to the toe development and now removal had been used elsewhere.  Well at least no one will ever touch that idea again.  

 

Looking forward to what the steam users are gonna think of this.  Gonna be a hoot when they see the monthly sub alone lol.

This!

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13 hours ago, OHM said:

Well this is not a normal campaign start ... both sides set up differently.     blink and you missed it

Blink and you missed it?? I remember 5 years ago I went for a month on holiday and when I got back the map was almost the same, just different tier... Ahhhh, but the new policy seems to be a bit different now... I hope the German HC places the next campaign all brigades in one town so we finish under one day... Then again I don't care anymore. This should have been stopped already. 

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I havent played this campaign. But a couple of notes:

1.we had a 3 day campaign before with a double pincer move at ciney/arlon to bastogne. This was with both HC in full order but both sides taking big risks. With i believe 30 min timer as well.

2. if frontline moves were set to 30 min this was a bug az we all know from back in the day that 30 min frontline timers is a bad idea. Its too quick.

3. the aftermath of such a large cut shows 1 of the problems with TOE. And it has (again as we had a 3 day campaign before, and many breakthroughs after) not overly much to do with HC being on or not. Even with HC on you can get these breakthroughs and they are not considered a good thing after they happened.

 

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The speed and rapidity of this campaign is directly related to the quicker brigade timers, the respective deployments, and the fact that supply wasn't cut to compensate for the reduced RDP timers (in descending order of importance).

 

This was more of a perfect storm than anything else.  

 

@Cornered Rats Please get rid of the 30min/15min movement timers.  The reason we abandoned them in the first place is because one side dominated the other for 5-6 campaigns in a row.  Supply also needs to be lowered from the brigades.  Don't be lazy and just re-up the RDP timer back to a very bad 15-hours.  Increasing the trickle timer delay from 1 minute would also be ideal to mitigate flag stacking.  

 

Thanks for trying though!  Keep at it guys. S!

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5 minutes ago, Capco said:

The speed and rapidity of this campaign is directly related to the quicker brigade timers, the respective deployments, and the fact that supply wasn't cut to compensate for the reduced RDP timers (in descending order of importance).

 

This was more of a perfect storm than anything else.  

 

@Cornered Rats Please get rid of the 30min/15min movement timers.  The reason we abandoned them in the first place is because one side dominated the other for 5-6 campaigns in a row.  Supply also needs to be lowered from the brigades.  Don't be lazy and just re-up the RDP timer back to a very bad 15-hours.  Increasing the trickle timer delay from 1 minute would also be ideal to mitigate flag stacking.  

 

Thanks for trying though!  Keep at it guys. S!

This is why I respect you, Capco.

 

One of your fellow AHC officers posted a reference to the "Axis LMG OP!!11!!eleven" in another thread, and it just goes to show how most of you guys who play as HC are very good people and players, and there's always some turd in the punchbowl.

You're not that way though, and I applaud this.

 

 

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This was a good test. Lots of data gathered. If it's all about timers why didn't those timers help axis recover?

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People need to stop citing the "big risks" HC took this map. When prime time is 2 AOs and the rest of the day is 1 AO you can have these huge snaking brigade movements because there is not enough pop to deplete supplies. The allies can overextend even more than usual during US prime with little risk. This isn't 2009 where there were significant populations in TZ3 and euro prime that had to be accounted for, and where your opponent could actually attack an open front instead of having to abide by AO restrictions.

 

Also the "testing" excuse is nonsense, people with years of experience playing this game should be able to predict what the changes would do. I mean HC can shift heavy tanks and armor to cover towns in a shorter time than what my LW sorties used to be. 

3 hours ago, sg1 said:

Ruining the game since inception... One can only wonder what the game would of been if all the resources devoted to the toe development and now removal had been used elsewhere.  Well at least no one will ever touch that idea again.  

When people think "WW2 tank game" they think World of Tanks, despite this game having simulated armor combat and an almost ten-year head start on WoT.

When people think "WW2 aircraft game" they think War Thunder, despite this game having simulated aircraft combat and over a decade before WT hit beta.

But you'll still find people here that insist that the crappy brigade system is what sets this game apart and not the MMOFPS or the simulation aspect.

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Last campaign didnt go as far as I like but I certainly had fun. I would sign on every night and fly with some great guys, occasionally playing ground. I know theres no guarantee "every map" is going to go full tier, they didnt back when we had army's playing.

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3 minutes ago, vasduten1 said:

This is why I respect you, Capco.

 

One of your fellow AHC officers posted a reference to the "Axis LMG OP!!11!!eleven" in another thread, and it just goes to show how most of you guys who play as HC are very good people and players, and there's always some turd in the punchbowl.

You're not that way though, and I applaud this.

 

 

Cheers buddy.  And this is why I respect you.  

 

Also, forrest is a good guy.  Don't let a pilot's comment about a squishy's LMG get to ya ;)  Us airheads will be airheads lol.  

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6 minutes ago, Sudden said:

This was a good test. Lots of data gathered. If it's all about timers why didn't those timers help axis recover?

It's about momentum and morale.  

 

For example, if timers were 2 hours frontline / 1 hour backline,  consider a situation like this campaign where one side is pressing very hard and the other is trying to recover.  You can only "press" so hard with those timers.  The "pressure" being put on GHC would've been much less because they would have had much more time to think and react.  It makes it more difficult for the offensive side to maintain their momentum.  

 

But with 30min/15min timers, the offensive side is able to put enormous pressure on the other side.  It gets to the point where MOIC on defense becomes the most overwhelming job in the world

 

Think of it this way:  slower timers prevent rapid gains, and quicker timers exasperate rapid gains.  Rapid gains (i.e. momentum) are what causes sudden morale collapses for one side.  Therefore, faster timers generally lead to one side completely collapsing very quickly if one side has the momentum.  

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34 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

@Cornered Rats Please get rid of the 30min/15min movement timers.  The reason we abandoned them in the first place is because one side dominated the other for 5-6 campaigns in a row.  Supply also needs to be lowered from the brigades.  Don't be lazy and just re-up the RDP timer back to a very bad 15-hours.  Increasing the trickle timer delay from 1 minute would also be ideal to mitigate flag stacking.  

The timers originally proposed isn't what caused the issue here. Wish you would open your eyes to see that. The issue is the front-front timer was mistakenly changed to 30 minutes and should not have been changed at all. Front-Front timer right  now should be 60 minutes and it isn't 60 minutes, it's 30 minutes. The timers that were proposed to change were front-back and back-back and that's it. Those will help HC in recovering from a brigade movement mistakes or recovering from breakouts. 

 

There were 3 things that broke this map. 

#1. Front-Front timers were changed to 30 minutes and were not supposed to

#2. Both Axis CinC and Allied CinC chose to do bold deployments that were opposites which exacerbated the problem.

#3. Allies used the 15 minute timers to get back to the axis breakthrough in the zeelands and contain it until it was cutoff. The axis did not make any such attempt. So therefore it just kept going.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Scking said:

The timers originally proposed isn't what caused the issue here. Wish you would open your eyes to see that.

Where did I say anything about the timers originally proposed?  I'm talking about what is in game right now and what effect it is having.  

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10 minutes ago, Capco said:

It's about momentum and morale.  

 

For example, if timers were 2 hours frontline / 1 hour backline,  consider a situation like this campaign where one side is pressing very hard and the other is trying to recover.  You can only "press" so hard with those timers.  The "pressure" being put on GHC would've been much less because they would have had much more time to think and react.  It makes it more difficult for the offensive side to maintain their momentum.  

 

But with 30min/15min timers, the offensive side is able to put enormous pressure on the other side.  It gets to the point where MOIC on defense becomes the most overwhelming job in the world

 

Think of it this way:  slower timers prevent rapid gains, and quicker timers exasperate rapid gains.  Rapid gains (i.e. momentum) are what causes sudden morale collapses for one side.  Therefore, faster timers generally lead to one side completely collapsing very quickly if one side has the momentum.  

This makes sense.

Also, I think like some people said it was a oerfect Storm.  Not only were the Axis lines stretched out due to the unorthodox setup, but I think Axis lacked active HC online at a critical time when the Allies were starting to get close to Leige.

Someone said in another thread that the Axis didn't have a proper army flag in Leige when it got attacked.  That situation should have never have happened, especially considering that the flags could have been moved faster.

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Remember there are 3 timers at issue here. Not 2.. 

 

Front-Front movements (which is forward attacking timers). Should be 60 minutes. (isn't because it was changed when it shouldn't have been)

Front-Back movements (pulling from the front line away from attacking). Should now be 30 minutes (was 60)

Back-Back movements (moving behind the lines more than 1 town away from an enemy town). Should be 15 minutes (was 30)

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1 hour ago, bmw said:

Well its not coming soon or better yet soon enough.

I follow very closely and i understand why CRS has said they can't right now.

This should be the number one priority before anything...I wonder how many potential players have been turned away during the last few months of experimentation?

Not to mention the vets that are unsubbing or just not playing with this massive rolls.

 

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4 minutes ago, Capco said:

Where did I say anything about the timers originally proposed?  I'm talking about what is in game right now and what effect it is having.  

You said "@Cornered Rats, remove the 30/15 minute timers" and that's what was originally proposed..

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1 minute ago, Scking said:

You said "@Cornered Rats, remove the 30/15 minute timers" and that's what was originally proposed..

30/15  (you know, what is in game right now) is not what CRS proposed.  You said it yourself.  

 

Read my above comment about momentum and morale.  Any timer that is faster than what we had before this campaign is bad news.  Their original, correct proposal is only slightly better than what we have now and would be a mistake if implemented.

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7 minutes ago, Scking said:

Remember there are 3 timers at issue here. Not 2.. 

 

Front-Front movements (which is forward attacking timers). Should be 60 minutes. (isn't because it was changed when it shouldn't have been)

Front-Back movements (pulling from the front line away from attacking). Should now be 30 minutes (was 60)

Back-Back movements (moving behind the lines more than 1 town away from an enemy town). Should be 15 minutes (was 30)

Actually I think it would be better to just going back to the way the timers were originally.

 If you slow down the timers on the frontline attack, but allow the defense timers to move twice as fast, then we might end up with WWI trench warfare and endless rotation of flags and supply.  The map becomes a big stalemate, that could get frustratng too.

A little bit of breakouts are ok I think.  They move the map.

Edited by krazydog
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3 minutes ago, Capco said:

30/15  (you know, what is in game right now) is not what CRS proposed.  You said it yourself.  

 

Read my above comment about momentum and morale.  Any timer that is faster than what we had before this campaign is bad news.  Their original, correct proposal is only slightly better than what we have now and would be a mistake if implemented.

 

Lets make this easier.. The current 30/30/15 timers in game are wrong and should be changed which is what I think you are saying.. Should be 60/30/15 which is what was originally proposed by @XOOM and next campaign should have 60/30/15 timers.

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20 minutes ago, Scking said:

Lets make this easier.. The current 30/30/15 timers in game are wrong and should be changed which is what I think you are saying.. Should be 60/30/15 which is what was originally proposed by @XOOM and next campaign should have 60/30/15 timers.

In the history of TOEs, there have never been 3 timers.  There's a backline-backline timer and then everything else.  

 

I don't even know if what they are proposing is possible.  That might be why it didn't happen this campaign.  

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