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      Hells Gate   03/24/2019

      Break through the lines, and enter Hells Gate!!! This will be the next CRS organized event.  Lead by the High command from each side.
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      Date: 3/30/19 Time: 11:00 AM Server time/ 12:00pm EST/ 1600 GMT
delems

Far too many SMGs.

48 posts in this topic

It's ridiculous to have almost as many SMG/LMG as rifles.  SMGs should be cut in half, LMGs are fine, for every 2 rifles there is a SMG?

Pretty sure german squads, for the most part, had no SMGs during the battle of Poland.  It wasn't till France that squad leaders got SMGs.

 

In game ratio is 1 LMG, 4 SMG and 8 rifles; this should probably be 1 LMG, 1 SMG, 8 rifles... but to have more fun I'd say go 1 LMG, 2 SMG and 8 rifles.

 That would be far more representative of an infantry battle.

 

Then, after this is done, cut every units supply in every flag in half.

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Good luck with your endeavours  delems. I feel they are falling on deaf ears mind.

I do agree supply is way to much, and smg's also way to much.

Edited by petie
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Ya, probably.

Tier 0, 30 LMG, 30 SMG

tier 1, 30 LMG, 45 SMG

tier 2, 30 LMG, 60 SMG

tier 3+, 30 LMG, 75 SMG

This would be with the current 250 rifles.  Scaled appropriately when supply in flags is cut.

 

Edited by delems
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Smg sucks anyway..

The problem is that there is no limit on the order or choosing of what unit you can spawn, that must first change for the sake of gameplay and realism.

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I understand what you are saying delems. But, first, what pbveteran said - SMGs kinda suck (unless you're face-to-face with your enemy, at least for me). 

Yet some people don't realize they suck .. and for F2P, rifle and SMG are the only two choices.. So if F2P players show up and never have SMG available, they will likely get frustrated with having a single choice of rifle only. We need those people to stay, imo. I was just telling a friend about this game, I don't know if he will like it, but I was thinking in my mind "well, he will only have two weapon choices. But that's better than no choice, I guess."

Edited by hillstorm
Read OP again. deleted part about WW2
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Been thinking about this some more.  The above numbers are probably too drastic of a cut.

If we figure our LMG is actually representing the LMG, loader and ammo troopers.

Then the german squad had a SMG, LMG, grenadier and 5 rifles.

At squad ratios, this would suggest with 250 rifles we have 50 SMGs, 50 LMGs and 50 grenadiers.

But at platoon ratios it would be 60 SMG, 50 LMGs and 50 grenadiers (12 snipers, 12 mortars, 12 ATRs)

Company and battalion ratios would be very similar, other than LMGs would go to 60 also since there is a heavy weapons company.

 

So this is where I would start the spawn lists from: 250 rifles, 60 LMG, 60 SMG, 50 grenadiers, 12 snipers, 12 mortars and 12 ATRs (27 engrs)

Surprisingly, (at least to me) this isn't really to far from our current spawn list makeup.

We actually get: 250 rifles, 120 SMGs, 30 LMGs, 25 snipers, 20 ATRs, 20 engrs, 15 mortars and 10 grenadiers.

 

Since our spawn lists have 30 LMGs, it seems safe to make there 90 SMGs, for a total of 120 auto weapons.

***One could argue the missing 50 grenadiers in our spawn list are really just rifles now, as german grenade launcher is an advantage; in that case, there would be 50 LMG, 50 SMG as  starting point, and our spawn list should have 30 LMGs and 70 SMGs.

 

So, in summary, I'd reduce the total SMGs from the current 120 to somewhere between 70-90 and leave it that number for each tier.

Edited by delems

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Final thoughts here. It has been brought up, that there is no perfect amount of supply.  And I agree.

But, there does need to be some basic spawn list of infantry, that is balanced and historically representative.

This will provide a sold place to build the correct 'supply' list based on population and or RDP timers.

It is silly to imagine we just 'guess' what the spawn lists should be or make them up on the fly.

 

After review, I'd suggest the basic infantry spawn list (or BISL) be as follows:

72 rifles, 24 SMGs, 8 LMG, 3 ATR, 3 grenadier, 3 sniper, 3 mortar and 6 engr.

 

Supply would then be built off of units of BISL.  So, HQ might be 1x BISL, arm flag 2x BISL and infantry flag 3x BISL

The above setup with the current 10 hour RDP timer might still be a bit too much supply, but not by much. (and, think rats rather error on a bit more than less supply)

 

For orthogonal game play, I'd suggest navy be 1x BISL and air 1x BISL as well, minus maybe the grenadiers and mortars.

 

This building block of infantry (the BISL) gives a great way to create the amount of supply needed.  If more players start playing, change the infantry flag to 4x BISL etc.  It also takes all the 'guesswork' out of changing  the supply lists and is historically based.

 

It also fantastically ports over to town supply, such as: maybe 1 AB town be 4x BISL, 2 AB town be 5x BISL, 3 AB town 6x BISL etc.

 

It also easily incorporates tiered data. Say with semi intro in tier 1; just change rifles to 60 bolt 12 semi (still giving the 72 as per the BISL)  Tier 2 maybe 48 bolt and 24 semi and finally when the USA arrives go to a 36 bolt 36 semi.

For shrecks, just replace part of the ATRs.  So, tier 0 and 1 is same, but tier 2 would go 2 ATR, 1 Schreck (for total of 3 per BISL); tier 3 on might be 1 ATR and 2 schreck.

 

So that is how I would change our SMGs... have infantry flag be 3x BISL or:

216 rifles, 72 SMG, 24 LMG, 9 ATR, 9 grenade, 9 sniper, 9 mortar and 18 engrs.

I would suggest the above for our next map. (make the ARM flag 2x BSIL and the HQ 1x BISL)  And stay with 10 hour RDP.

 

 

*** as a final note, I noticed that if we changed the LMG number to 9, every number in the BISL is a multiple of 3.  This means we don't have to use whole numbers for BISLs.  (though, the smallest should be 1x BISL)  So, maybe we want HQ 1xBISL, but ARM could be 1 2/3 BISL and INF could be 3 1/3 BISL. This does offer a great deal of flexibility in creating supply lists, ala fine tuning.  So, maybe the final BSIL should have 9, not 8 LMGs in it. And next maps infantry flag supply list should look like:

216 rifles, 72 SMG, 27 LMG, 9 ATR, 9 grenade, 9 sniper, 9 mortar and 18 engrs.

Edited by delems
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At first glance, I like those numbers delems.  

 

There's nothing that says that infantry numbers need to end in '5' or '0' too.  

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Good thing tank crews aren't armed and able to figure out how to get out of the tank, else there would be even more SMGs!

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And you would also have to check the accuracy of each and correct as needed.

One other thing, the grenadier needs the kill zone checked. The shooter should not survive a round landing 2m away and should be severely injured beyond that.

 

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I think the final BISL should be as follows: (basic balanced infantry spawn list)

24 rifles, 8 SMG, 3 LMG, 1 MTR, 1 Gren, 1 Snip, 1 ATR and 2 engr. Then, make multiples to create the actual spawn list used in game.

 

**For the next map I'd suggest going to an 8 hour RDP timer and setting flag supply as: (the is almost a perfect scaling of the current supply and 15 hours, btw)

INF 6x BISL, ARM 4x BISL and HQ 2x BISL, so an infantry flag would be 144 rifles, 48 SMG, 18 LMG, 6 MTR, 6 GREN, 6 snip, 6 ATR and 12 engr

 

For navy and air,

Use 2x BISL for completely orthogonal play. (i.e same gear so players get full experience)

Or, change their TOE/BISL to remove MTR and Gren to more realistically show their reduced strength and mostly rifles.

27 rifles, 4 SMG, 1 LMG, 1 Snip, 1 ATR and 2 engr;   then set navy and air flags infantry to 2x BISL. So air and navy would like this:

54 rifles, 8 SMG, 2 LMG, 2 snip, 2 ATR and 4 engr.

 

Edited by delems

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Supply should scale with the server population at the time, there are more tanks than infantry during off-peak times

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I just want them to fix the Axis Gren been killed way to many times by these suicide bombers in a depot or just running around . Brit Heat grenades OP but on contact exploding suicide bombers are not Op at all /Boggle.

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Supply is ridiculous right now.

Might well just put intermission supply on.

Changing RDP timers w/o changing supply was a really boneheaded move - terrible.

 

There are still way to many SMGs, 35 SMGs should be removed immediately from infantry flags.

 

Then, either move timers back to 15 hours or cut supply by a third.

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We will be looking into the amount of supply. But changing the supply in the middle of the campaign will not be the best time.  I would like to make changes like this at the beginning. 

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11 minutes ago, petie said:

They still not listen , Haha.

 

3 minutes ago, OHM said:

We will be looking into the amount of supply.

 

Well, bet that stings :popcorn:

 

 

4 minutes ago, OHM said:

But changing the supply in the middle of the campaign will not be the best time.

I think i'd laugh, or no, i'd cry?
No, first i'd laugh, then i'd cry, because it would happen right as i am about to spawn in
" The unit you have reserved is no longer available"

Even funnier if it took place while spawned, 60 guys suddenly running around with empty hands punching eachother :lol:

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Keep it the way it is.  Good God man, if every person complained about something on a weekly basis the rats would be running in circles waving their arms to and fro.

 

Let them focus on the bigger stuff.  I'm sure they have a lot on their plate as is.

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Glad they are going to look at it.

I can barely get myself to log in and play the game anymore.  RDP worthless, resupply worthless, attrition worthless.

Currently, a SINGLE flag has so many autos in it, that you can kill one every minute for 2 hours straight, and they'll still be plenty left over... this is JUST autos.

And, not to mention the ease at which a 2nd flag is moved in.  And seen all those towns with 4 or 5 flags in them..... ?

(A single divisions autos can't be depleted with 10 hours of straight combat (at 1 per minute)...... and that's just the autos)

 

Normally on Sat I would have logged in 2 hours ago, meh, might log in now and check it out.

 

Edited by delems

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Are those people against reducing supply because they are afraid of using a rifle 5 times a month? :lol:

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14 minutes ago, sydspain said:

Are those people against reducing supply because they are afraid of using a rifle 5 times a month? :lol:

Rifle is awesome, only bad part is when the 30 guys facing you all have machine guns

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20 minutes ago, sydspain said:

Are those people against reducing supply because they are afraid of using a rifle 5 times a month? :lol:

The problem is that some people do not like the rifle.  You force them to use something they don't want to use and they'll just quit. 

Like trying to force pilots to play infantry or tankers to fly. They'll just quit. 

People who love to use the rifle think that everyone should love to use the rifle and it just doesn't work that way, especially in close combat because we all know how awesome close combat is in this game LOL. 

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I like the Gewehr 41 when you approach a town better than the MP34.

Maybe a jammed weapon here and there would make them less popular?

Edited by disi

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51 minutes ago, disi said:

I like the Gewehr 41 when you approach a town better than the MP34.

Maybe a jammed weapon here and there would make them less popular?

I love the semi auto rifles. I'll use the garand or g43 over the SMGs most of the times, at least in close combat you have a shot vs the SMGs, where as if you F up your first shot with a bolt you might as lay down and die. 

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58 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

The problem is that some people do not like the rifle.  You force them to use something they don't want to use and they'll just quit. 

Like trying to force pilots to play infantry or tankers to fly. They'll just quit. 

People who love to use the rifle think that everyone should love to use the rifle and it just doesn't work that way, especially in close combat because we all know how awesome close combat is in this game LOL. 

Not really a good argument Mo, your comparisons arent valid.

58 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

Like trying to force pilots to play infantry or tankers to fly.

Not valid.
Its like telling the tanker, sorry pick another tank, there arent 5000 Tigers in the spawn pool
Or telling pilots, you'll have to take an H75 because we are out of P38's.

Now if you quit because of that, maybe you were not going to stay to begin with.
The game is an evolving strategic war and combat sim based on realism.


If you come into it thinking "I am only going to play X unit, if i cant have all the X units i want, i'll quit"
then you've come in already headed for the exit.

All games have rulesets
One does not go play monopoly and declare your only playing if you can have boardwalk and park place
One doesnt go play D&D and dictate that you will simply cast magic missile every turn
It doesn't work that way, it's not how things are played.

Quote

if you F up your first shot with a bolt you might as lay down and die.

If the other guy has a rifle?
Perhaps not, then you dance that dance of death and see who has the best steps

Edited by merlin51

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