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a3ist

F2P opinion - "Raw realism" apparently

59 posts in this topic

Once upon a time ago the city buildings had external stairs you could walk up to the roof on. You could also climb up some tree limbs to the top of a line of trees. I guess both of these features were removed some years ago for a reason.

 

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I believe the use of the mg34 in the way its currently used is a side effect of the poor performance/accuracy of the Axis SMGs, most of the grief in this thread is coming from Allied players who imo would be more than happy if they had the same ability from one of there LMGs, again because the SMGs apart from the Thompson leave a lot to be desired, when the small arms audit is done and the SMG performance improves then my hope is people will move to the SMGS becuase there handing and use will be far better at cps clearing then the LMGS ever should or can be, everyone will always gravitate to the most effective weapon at a role, make a different weapon better at that job and people will stop using other weapons in that role as much.

I see a lot of Allied players complaining in this thread about historical accuracy but they need to remember its a double edged sword, there is a number of Allied weapons and units performing beyond historical accuracy or using weapons that where not even available at the time or used by that county that they currently enjoy, So we either take the rough with the smooth or everyone gets on board with the whole 100% historical as much as the game engine allows route in which case your going to lose some of the bits and bobs you also enjoy on a daily basis.

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The basic design philosophy behind the MG34 and carried on w the MG42 (rather lightweight, universal, converted from light MG into a "heavy" one by using tripod mount w sights, leveling and auto fire / advance mechanisms etcetc) was due to the doctrine the Wehrmacht employed on account of lessons learned from WW1 namely: the MG is the KEY player, NOT the RIFLE nor SMG!

The RIFLES in a german MG Trupp / Zug were there to merely support the MG by hauling AMMO to the MG and protecting it when leap frogging to the next position. For THAT you need to use a Machine Gun which can be hauled around EASILY, by ONE man as well as FIRED easily, again, by ONE man and not just from the "Hi, im nailed to the ground" position else the whole concept doesnt work really.

The allied philosophy was the opposite - the MG chills in the back while the rifles move up - the MG then fires from its Chill Out position towards anything the squad leader advancing w the rifles / recon troops tells it to.

So, when you throw around "Squad Support Weapon" in conjunction w the MG34 - bear this in mind:

Wehrmacht: THE MG34 WAS THE "SQUAD" ! The RIFLES were the "Support" weapons!

Allies: RIFLES were the "Squad", the MG was the SUPPORT weapon.

What does that have to do w the MG34 again, in case you can not follow?

To employ the doctrine and tactics as outlined rather broadly above the MG34 had to be designed and thus WAS designed to be handled AND FIRED / CONTROLLED easily by the average soldier in any position as the situation dictates, that includes standing and advancing ie walking while firing !

As to the sniper grief - depending on barrel wear and if outfitted w the proper sight ie on tripod w sights and due to the fact the MG34 came factory equipped w a dual-trigger (upper single, lower Field Broom (auto)) firing the same rounds used in sniper rifles (7.92x57) --- whats your point? Sure, you could snipe with it if you had nothing else / were bored / drunk enough...etetc, why not?

If possible for real why not in game? Just be glad we dont get the tripod mount w the sights and all that....

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My ultimate wwiiol would have a minecraft component. Outside the game, there would be another game, one that developed our weapons further as the war ran on. The natural progression would occur just not exactly like wwii. We've been fighting this war for a longer period of time than the actual war. By now, our minecraft engineers would have tweaked our weapons several times in order to adapt to the other sides advantages. We could call it "world at war" :) "The neverending battle to control the earth". The progression of weapon technology dictated by minecraft weapons engineers working outside the actual fighting. So much fun, something for everyone.

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2 hours ago, gsc said:

...inn any position as the situation dictates, that includes standing and advancing ie walking while firing !

 

Yep, MG34 was ABSOLUTELY the squad, and rifles were ABSOLUTELY the "support" weapons. Every single thing you said in that post was 100% perfect until you got to this assertion. As far as I know, firing the MG34 while walking was NOT conventional. If I'm wrong, I'd love to know (show me that this was part of conventional training).

Regardless, you (and everyone else who responds to this issue) keeps trying to move the goal posts and make this about something else. The issue is and always has been jogging while firing full-auto. That's it.

Nobody has a problem with standing while firing; not the OP, not me, and nobody in any of the 10+ years worth of threads that have come before this. It's absolutely realistic, was certainly done on the battlefield, and is just fine as implemented in the game.

While I take issue with your assertion that walking while firing  was somehow part of doctrinal tactics,  I don't necessarily have a problem with being able to walk while firing full-auto in the game, only jogging  (simply because it's perfectly plausible that someone can do this), but show me the videos of walking while firing full auto; let's see just how FAST one can actually move; reproduce THAT, and I have zero problem.

What you won't show me is someone jogging while firing an MG34 full-auto. This is not realistic, should not be in the game, and should be fixed ASAP, period.

9 hours ago, gsc said:

Since "jogging" or, more accurately according to the animation depicted in-game, "Full Diaper Walk" is the default mode in-game it's not surprising the mg34 can be fired while doing so

 

No idea what you're talking about here. MG34 was not and should not be fired full-auto at the movement equivalent to jogging in this game. It's as simple as that. Whatever you think of the animation or whatever name you call it is irrelevant. I couldn't care less about the animation; it's the speed of the movement that's at issue. Don't think of it as jogging if you want, call it "intermediate movement speed" for all I care.

3 hours ago, dm79 said:

most of the grief in this thread is coming from Allied players

Over 99% of all the spawns/sorties I've had have been German. I want this fixed because it's as unrealistic as being able to spawn in as Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck. There are plenty of unrealistic aspects of this game (a game will always be unrealistic; it's a game); this is something that's especially glaring (again, I'd go so far as to say that CP capture/defense gameplay is broken because of it) can be fixed (easily), so it should be fixed. Simple as that.

 

For the record, if I were redesigning the game, I'd drastically overhaul sprinting too (so that you couldn't instantly fire a weapon like an LMG the second you stop holding shift; show me the damn videos of someone doing THAT), I'd also end the ability to have an infinite number of equal length, equal speed sprints as long as you have a tiny bit of rest in-between...infantry move silly fast in this game as it is (so that the WWIIOL battlefield is full of infantry sprinting everywhere, which is completely ridiculous, and something that even modern, unrealistic first-person shooters have gotten right)...but that's another story.

Edited by xanthus
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2 hours ago, dm79 said:

I believe the use of the mg34 in the way its currently used is a side effect of the poor performance/accuracy of the Axis SMGs, most of the grief in this thread is coming from Allied players who imo would be more than happy if they had the same ability from one of there LMGs, again because the SMGs apart from the Thompson leave a lot to be desired, when the small arms audit is done and the SMG performance improves then my hope is people will move to the SMGS becuase there handing and use will be far better at cps clearing then the LMGS ever should or can be, everyone will always gravitate to the most effective weapon at a role, make a different weapon better at that job and people will stop using other weapons in that role as much.

I see a lot of Allied players complaining in this thread about historical accuracy but they need to remember its a double edged sword, there is a number of Allied weapons and units performing beyond historical accuracy or using weapons that where not even available at the time or used by that county that they currently enjoy, So we either take the rough with the smooth or everyone gets on board with the whole 100% historical as much as the game engine allows route in which case your going to lose some of the bits and bobs you also enjoy on a daily basis.

You're turning it around. Its not that the smgs are so good, its because the allied lmg sucks.

Would I complain about the lmg being first weapon of choice if allied one was uber as well? Yes! Its simply not a result of good game design if everyone picks 1 item first. An LMG should have specific disadvantages compared to an SMG.

Next to that, the MG34 should be absolutely dominating an open field/alleyway cut. Which it already does but could perhaps even get an upgrade. A rifleman takes out an LMG too easily frontally. The accuracy of a rifle seems too high in that respect. People will say "yeah but i can hit a target easily at 1km". But also when there are 50 rounds from a mg34 coming your way?

Perhaps that can be improved with some kind of suppression effect (although explosion suppression screen shake was horrible ingame). Also as you say I wonder what the results are from the accuracy review. They can change a lot already on this subject.

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On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 8:21 AM, B2K said:

I'd be interested to see what he actually managed to hit - given the way that barrel is all over the place.

Given the engagement distance inside a CP is something like 4 feet I would hardly say it matters.

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1 hour ago, xanthus said:

Yep, MG34 was ABSOLUTELY the squad, and rifles were ABSOLUTELY the "support" weapons.

Srysly -  Head --> Wall, stop doing it...

Maybe you will notice the QUOTES then... ( "" )

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Let's do full historical accuracy and see where that gets us. 

French tanks with 1 man turrets?  Let's black out the gunner's sight while he reloads. Can't look down the sight while reloading, can you?  Take away chat and voice comms from people using tanks with no radios...No more garand for the BEF. No more grease gun in tier0.  No more super stunt plane db7/havocs absorbing damage like they were b-52s. ATGs pushing around in the field carrying 40+ rounds with them. I'll trade LMGs firing while jogging for all that. 

 

Sounds like a barrel of fun, doesn't it? 

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15 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

Let's do full historical accuracy and see where that gets us. 

French tanks with 1 man turrets?  Let's black out the gunner's sight while he reloads. Can't look down the sight while reloading, can you?  Take away chat and voice comms from people using tanks with no radios...No more garand for the BEF. No more grease gun in tier0.  No more super stunt plane db7/havocs absorbing damage like they were b-52s. ATGs pushing around in the field carrying 40+ rounds with them. I'll trade LMGs firing while jogging for all that. 

 

Sounds like a barrel of fun, doesn't it? 

That's completely my point, people hark on about historical cant do this in rl or do that, look around you in game within 2 seconds you will see something funky that would never happen in real life or combat, so like i said stop picking the bits you fee are a disadvantage to you and the side you are playing and expecting all the other naughty bits that give you an advantage to stay.

Oh and before anyone starts trade talk along the lines of this is wrong and needs fixing, if they fix that then they should also look at our weapon to get fixed as well cause we all want a balanced game crap. Everyone here wants a weapon that's better than the other guy hide behind historical or balance or what ever its all bs,  im sure im going to get everyone saying that's not true i only want a balanced game, i only want it like real ww2, its human nature to want an advantage over the other guy and when it pointed out as unfair keep it or expect the other guy to share or give up the advantage.

 

What do people want 100% Historical within the ablity of the game engine for everything or pick and mix?

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4 hours ago, odin67 said:

Once upon a time ago the city buildings had external stairs you could walk up to the roof on. You could also climb up some tree limbs to the top of a line of trees. I guess both of these features were removed some years ago for a reason.

Those were removed. There also used to be a lot more cover in urban areas. Climbing trees has been gone for a long time but you used to be able to shimmy up wreckage and some buildings easily. A lot of the climbing was removed when CRS made it impossible to climb river banks except at select areas. Now in a town battle the top levels of houses and roofs are almost completely inaccessible. So no verticality in this FPS at all despite the assets wasting all the memory and processor power. You can still push a flak 30 and other light guns up the side of a building and put them on the roof, but that gets you a GM warning. So no light guns on the tops of buildings. 

 

The devs just don't know how to make a fun game. If they did then they would have done so already. For instance they still have guard towers placed all around town, but have they ever put a ramp or ladder so players can walk up them and observe/fight? No they make them inaccessible and put a ridiculous AI bot in them that ignores foliage.

Edited by david01

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3 hours ago, dm79 said:

most of the grief in this thread is coming from Allied players who imo would be more than happy if they had the same ability from one of there LMGs

1) They do have the same ability
2) Axis players have the same gripe, want to see plenty of axis screen shots that include "dead in CP, stupid damned bren came jogging in firing full auto" in the chat bar?
3) Fix would i assume entail all of the LMG ranked weapons, could be applied across the board to all infantry guns probably

2 hours ago, gsc said:

walking while firing !

 Ah but see, none of the LMGs are walking now, the game has a walk speed. Has a keymap for it too. (HINT if you dont want me hearing your big boots going thump thump when you try to enter the CP, try using it)
Aim your K98k and move, that is what you should be doing.
Now go into the crouch, because that's as close as the game gets to the stance you would take to support your mobile firing position.
And you would probably in reality be firing in bursts, cause running out of ammo in mid advance is painfully embarrassing, or just painful.

That's not really what any of the LMG's are currently doing. (side does not matter)
It isnt that the guy can move and fire the thing that people dont like too much, its the part where he jogs through the living room
slinging it around like its a plastic airsoft gun, side shooting into the kitchen while he heads off to the bathroom to assault the toilet, firing on full auto the entire time.
 

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1 hour ago, Mosizlak said:

Let's do full historical accuracy and see where that gets us. 

French tanks with 1 man turrets?  Let's black out the gunner's sight while he reloads. Can't look down the sight while reloading, can you?  Take away chat and voice comms from people using tanks with no radios...No more garand for the BEF. No more grease gun in tier0.  No more super stunt plane db7/havocs absorbing damage like they were b-52s. ATGs pushing around in the field carrying 40+ rounds with them. I'll trade LMGs firing while jogging for all that. 

 

Sounds like a barrel of fun, doesn't it? 

One of my squad mates suggested we start using equipment operational durability stats and simulate random breakdowns....as with most 'realism' things there are tradeoffs

 

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1 minute ago, B2K said:

One of my squad mates suggested we start using equipment operational durability stats and simulate random breakdowns....as with most 'realism' things there are tradeoffs

 

There's a line between total historical accuracy and a fun game. 

Go too far over that line to historical accuracy and you'll please about 19 people and have no game left. 

 

As far as the LMGs go, I don't care either way. Change it or leave it, doesn't bother me. I just have a problem with people cherry picking the stuff that they don't like while ignoring the other glaring inaccuracies. Those same people using the grease gun in tier0 and the BEF garand in tier1, happily ignoring the fact that it's not even remotely historically accurate. Both sides are getting it's gravy yet both sides want the other side's taken away lol. 

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2 hours ago, dm79 said:

What do people want 100% Historical within the ablity of the game engine for everything

This.

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3 hours ago, gsc said:

Srysly -  Head --> Wall, stop doing it...

Maybe you will notice the QUOTES then... ( "" )

Not sure what you mean here. I was agreeing with your post.

33 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

This.

It's possible to have a better historical feel in infantry gameplay (I'm partial to inf gameplay because that's primarily what I've played since day one); ie Red Orchestra 2 does it better than this game, that is NOT up for debate: everything from the superficial (minimalist HUD, unlike in this game) to the very stuff we're talking about in this thread. Obviously, the difference is that RO2 is not and never will be the giant world, combined arms game that this is. But it does WWII infantry gameplay more or less flawlessly within its shoebox confines (and no, I don't care about the graphics). At least drawing inspiration from what the RO franchise does right (rather than trying to reinvent the wheel) is something that's been brought up ad nauseum in these very forums, but the message apparently never sunk in here. Take RO2 inf gameplay, transplant it to this game world, and IMO, you have inf perfection.

 

Regardless, the bottom line is that these strawman comments about "100% historical accuracy" are yet another example of moving the goal posts.

4 hours ago, xanthus said:

There are plenty of unrealistic aspects of this game (a game will always be unrealistic; it's a game); this is something that's especially glaring (again, I'd go so far as to say that CP capture/defense gameplay is broken because of it) can be fixed (easily), so it should be fixed. Simple as that.

Just fix the damn full auto LMG-while-jogging BS. It's really that simple.

 

1 hour ago, Mosizlak said:

Those same people using the grease gun in tier0 and the BEF garand in tier1, happily ignoring the fact that it's not even remotely historically accurate

Totally with you on this.

 
Edited by xanthus

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2 hours ago, merlin51 said:

1) They do have the same ability
2) Axis players have the same gripe, want to see plenty of axis screen shots that include "dead in CP, stupid damned bren came jogging in firing full auto" in the chat bar?
3) Fix would i assume entail all of the LMG ranked weapons, could be applied across the board to all infantry guns probably

 Ah but see, none of the LMGs are walking now, the game has a walk speed. Has a keymap for it too. (HINT if you dont want me hearing your big boots going thump thump when you try to enter the CP, try using it)
Aim your K98k and move, that is what you should be doing.
Now go into the crouch, because that's as close as the game gets to the stance you would take to support your mobile firing position.
And you would probably in reality be firing in bursts, cause running out of ammo in mid advance is painfully embarrassing, or just painful.

That's not really what any of the LMG's are currently doing. (side does not matter)
It isnt that the guy can move and fire the thing that people dont like too much, its the part where he jogs through the living room
slinging it around like its a plastic airsoft gun, side shooting into the kitchen while he heads off to the bathroom to assault the toilet, firing on full auto the entire time.
 

Reality Check Time!  Why is this problem unique to the LMG?  Go find some youtube videos of many people actively jogging while firing ANY weapon.  20 years worth of weapons training and I have yet to be taught to jog and fire at the same time.  The closest is a funky flattened fast walk.  I challenge anyone here to go out and make a video where they are jogging and accurately engaging targets.  There may be some guy out there who shoots professional competitions that gets away with it but the vast majority of people will never be able to.  Jogging and shooting accurately is not something was or is taught with any weapons platform.  If the LMG is prevented from doing this, ALL other weapons should be also.

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59 minutes ago, B2K said:

One of my squad mates suggested we start using equipment operational durability stats and simulate random breakdowns....as with most 'realism' things there are tradeoffs

I could see that being perhaps fun, and interesting, on a certain level.
But only if there were units and functions in the game to address said things.

Recovery vehicles, repair units, some kind of A:) incentive to use them B:) incentive for the guy to remain spawned in to be repaired or recovered etc.
Tracked, some kind of reward for keeping the vehicle alive to get repaired, and something to the guys repairing.
Gun tube shot out, need a reason for the guy to haul it back to rear echelon to swap it out rather than despawn.
Etc etc

It would take a large amount of work though to make it interesting and make it fun though
Well more like insane amount of work.
And enough detail nuts to play it out enough to be worth it.
 

2 hours ago, Mosizlak said:

French tanks with 1 man turrets?  Let's black out the gunner's sight while he reloads. Can't look down the sight while reloading, can you?

I could go for that, and make reloading a manually triggered affair. Maybe holding the trigger down? Release trigger to begin reload?
Can we swap blacked out sight, for a reloading animation though just to be more immersive?
Do have to lock out POS2 during reload though, it's just one head in the whole thing and dont think the arms can reach ammo with the head shoved up on the little cupola roof. 

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23 minutes ago, saronin said:

Reality Check Time! 

Confused

 

24 minutes ago, saronin said:

3) Fix would i assume entail all of the LMG ranked weapons, could be applied across the board to all infantry guns probably

Reading check? Can you at least read before yelling at me?
Item 3?
End of sentence? 
Which was mostly a direct reply to DM79, by the way, pertaining to thinking it was only a side biased axis LMG thing. 

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1 hour ago, merlin51 said:

Confused

 

Reading check? Can you at least read before yelling at me?
Item 3?
End of sentence? 
Which was mostly a direct reply to DM79, by the way, pertaining to thinking it was only a side biased axis LMG thing. 

I read that as all sides LMGs. You and I are on the same page then. Nobody should be able to run and shoot accurately. 

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2 hours ago, saronin said:

Reality Check Time!  Why is this problem unique to the LMG?  Go find some youtube videos of many people actively jogging while firing ANY weapon.  20 years worth of weapons training and I have yet to be taught to jog and fire at the same time.  The closest is a funky flattened fast walk.  I challenge anyone here to go out and make a video where they are jogging and accurately engaging targets.  There may be some guy out there who shoots professional competitions that gets away with it but the vast majority of people will never be able to.  Jogging and shooting accurately is not something was or is taught with any weapons platform.  If the LMG is prevented from doing this, ALL other weapons should be also.

This would be a great change for the better.  It will make the game feel a bit more clunky, but combat is clunky guys.  There's nothing smooth and sweet about it.  

 

They don't allow running and shooting in games like Arma or PUBG.  WWIIOL should definitely be the same.  

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51 minutes ago, Capco said:

This would be a great change for the better.  It will make the game feel a bit more clunky, but combat is clunky guys.  There's nothing smooth and sweet about it.  

 

They don't allow running and shooting in games like Arma or PUBG.  WWIIOL should definitely be the same.  

While we're at it, count me in on this! Fixes like this that would be relatively easy to implement would go a long way to improving the inf game. :ice_cream:S!

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Lots players (escpecially Allied players) keep complaining about LMGs running around and firing ffom the hip. Ok fine, but ...

Before we nerf the the LMG,  add SUPPRESSION FIRE to the game so LMGs can be used like they are supposed to be used.

cheers

Edited by krazydog

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14 minutes ago, krazydog said:

Lots players (escpecially Allied players) keep complaining about LMGs running around and firing ffom the hip. Ok fine, but ...

Before we nerf the the LMG,  add SUPPRESSION FIRE to the game so LMGs can be used like they are supposed to be used.

cheers

@Xanthus is axis, mostly, sometimes he visits :) 

Well, lets see how Scottsman's small arms ballistics improvement plays out, it may go a bit of the way to giving you that.
It wont cure the nutcase who just decides to frontally charge your position, but it might make his trying a bit more fruitless.

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I think if the current sets of SMGs come up to Thompson stranded then i think the LMG's for room clearing will become redundant, i stand by what i said people use the LMG for room clearing because currently its way way better at it than the SMGs.

I would like to see mg suppression work how RO works, try putting you head up in that game while mg is shooting at you, you cant aim for [censored], and i bet its not that difficult to implement, just think of its impact on battles and inf fights. YES PLEASE!

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