• Announcements

    • HEAVY265

      New Forum Lead!   11/17/2019

      It's with great pleasure to announce B2K as the new Forum Lead.   I am very confident he will be good for the forums, he has great ideas and direction for the future of the forums.
      Good luck sir and GOD speed.
redoak84

Bombs... once again

47 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, stankyus said:

The only thing I can think of is to put a time delay fuse on the bombs so if they drop at very low altitude the bomb does not arm.  I am sure that is a option if the bomber pilots turn into a mass of kamakazis.

Do the bombs on a stuka use that? Stuka by nature drops very low from near vertical.
Though even if fake if you set the low alt planes to not arm if dropped under 200m or 300m, that pretty much puts it in the realm of if you drop here you are stupid anyways, so no adverse effect to the plane by imposing a small minimum drop height, right?

blens IV's and db7's and HE-111's should really be dropping above that magical 700m line (which becomes 500 or 600 real fast when you're trying to fly, watch the ground, manage bombardier etc)  where infantry cease to exist, bombs really need to be STO for that, and people should not really be tank hunting with HE-111s DB7s Havocs or even Blenheims, if for nothing else, new HE may very well blow your tail right off instead of just hearing those plinks.
And i am kind of sure all those bombers had arming timers of some sort or another to prevent accidents?

I have no idea on the arming mechanism used on the allied pseudo dive/glide bombers? just copy the low alt one from the stuka?

 

 

I am not so much worried about bombs hurting things too badly, that's kind of what they are supposed to do.
Just means i need my air to have superiority, may also mean i need to tow out and set up some dense AA gun formations and get some coordinated AA teams going.
 

Im seriously doubting too many people will suddenly become kamikazes, very few people do it now even though it works.
Mostly idiots, because even if you miss the tank, you just cost your side an expensive aircraft, and even if you hit it trading an expensive aircraft for a vickers is kind of embarrassing if you think about it.
Then again, there is always that one guy

 

Anyone know how this worked exactly? Seems a little nose spinner is way easier?
Guernsey%20liberation%20day2010%20082.jp

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, merlin51 said:

Do the bombs on a stuka use that? Stuka by nature drops very low from near vertical.
Though even if fake if you set the low alt planes to not arm if dropped under 200m or 300m, that pretty much puts it in the realm of if you drop here you are stupid anyways, so no adverse effect to the plane by imposing a small minimum drop height, right?

blens IV's and db7's and HE-111's should really be dropping above that magical 700m line (which becomes 500 or 600 real fast when you're trying to fly, watch the ground, manage bombardier etc)  where infantry cease to exist, bombs really need to be STO for that, and people should not really be tank hunting with HE-111s DB7s Havocs or even Blenheims, if for nothing else, new HE may very well blow your tail right off instead of just hearing those plinks.
And i am kind of sure all those bombers had arming timers of some sort or another to prevent accidents?

I have no idea on the arming mechanism used on the allied pseudo dive/glide bombers? just copy the low alt one from the stuka?

 

 

I am not so much worried about bombs hurting things too badly, that's kind of what they are supposed to do.
Just means i need my air to have superiority, may also mean i need to tow out and set up some dense AA gun formations and get some coordinated AA teams going.
 

Im seriously doubting too many people will suddenly become kamikazes, very few people do it now even though it works.
Mostly idiots, because even if you miss the tank, you just cost your side an expensive aircraft, and even if you hit it trading an expensive aircraft for a vickers is kind of embarrassing if you think about it.
Then again, there is always that one guy

 

Anyone know how this worked exactly? Seems a little nose spinner is way easier?
Guernsey%20liberation%20day2010%20082.jp

 

Expensive aircraft?  The way TOEs are currently set up it’s almost impossible to run out of aircraft. They may as well be used as one way smart bombs given the lack of bomb effectiveness other than direct hits and the unending availability. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, saronin said:

Expensive aircraft?  The way TOEs are currently set up it’s almost impossible to run out of aircraft. They may as well be used as one way smart bombs given the lack of bomb effectiveness other than direct hits and the unending availability. 

I need to come fly with you then
Last time i tried, there were no blens, all gone, there were no H75's all gone, tried brit, no blens, and 4 havocs and i wasnt interested in a DB7 or a havoc
I think the hurris were low to but i dont remember for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We need some facts here. SOP for the Stukas dive-bombing attack is lain out in Rudel's book iirc it's in the region of 4-5 hundred metres height. for release of bombs. If we allow that that is likely the lowest height at which any air-fused bombs should detonate - then that gives us a start-point for discussion. Suicide bombing is anathema to good gameplay and requires measures to be made impractical. The easiest way to achieve this is a minimum air-distance travelled air-fuse  - be it a vertical or level attack.  Then we come to the effects of near-misses - see my previous post up-thread for thoughts. The other means by which aircraft attained safety from their own bombs detonating was via a time delay fuse, however, as this was in effect armed by the "air-fuse" spinner winding a sufficient number of turns, dropping a time-delay bomb from extremely low altitude would cause it to fail to subsequently detonate, unless, the safety of the air-fuse was removed for a specific - and very risky - operation. An exception to the above was the use of "rodded" bombs, necessarily without air--fuses. I only know of their use in RAF service, but other nations may well have employed them. These had a long stick from the front of the bomb, which caused it to detonate with the body of the bomb still above ground level, for anti-personel/anti soft-vehicle operations. usually dropped by Wellingtons, and the like, they were cordially hated by the crews that flew with them, as even an accident taxiing, let alone a crash-landing with a hung-up bomb, could, and frequently did, kill all onboard. We can probably ignore rodded bombs however. Most electrically-fused bombs were jettisoned unfused.

Using minimum travel to arm bombs (air-fusing) in ww2ol is a no-brainer, why it has never been implemented god only knows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, fidd said:

Using minimum travel to arm bombs (air-fusing) in ww2ol is a no-brainer, why it has never been implemented god only knows.

Because the fact that your own bomb kills you is kind of a self limiting factor, 99% of people dont want to blow themselves up.
It's never been a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

Because the fact that your own bomb kills you is kind of a self limiting factor, 99% of people dont want to blow themselves up.
It's never been a problem.

I'd say the figure is nearer 30%, in terms of attacking at a height where the prospect of dying from ground-fire or your own bombs as a near certainty is concerned, Personally I see bomber pilots prosecuting hopelessly risky attacks more often than not. In fairness, this is chiefly down to wanting the bombs to take an actual toll of the defenders, rather than a death-wish per se. As for bombers deliberately bombing ground units, "whilst still attached to their own bombs", so to speak, that's harder to gauge, but given the risks ground players take every minute of every day to clear a cp, or spawn out of a hopelessly camped FMS, I see no reason to suppose that players in bombers should be any more sensible. Of course one cannot easily separate cluelessness from mischief in this regard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11.8.2017 at 6:56 PM, redoak84 said:

I've kind of had it with the bombs in this game.  I'm tired of dropping 250 kg bombs within feet of a Sherman or M10 with no effect... especially the M10 which was not a heavily armored vehicle. Needing a direct hit with a bomb is just plain stupid, and defeats the purpose of a bomb. This has literally be the dumbest part of this game, and for the last year all I've seen is, "there is an on going audit". Well, are you going to address the issue or not? I'm a paying customer and I want to know... stop with the lack of transparency. Are you going take into account the concussive effects of bombs on tanks?  To perfectly honest with you, I kind of want to warn the steam forum about this FLAW because it really takes away from the game.

allied bombs are like 50% weight of axis bombs but nevertheless they cause 2-300% more damage :D

 

axis bombs are well known for killing scout cars in this game while DB-7 pilots easily come home with 3-5 Tiger kills per sortie and a huge amount of 40mm bofor holes in their planes .....

 

:popcorn:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, fidd said:

I'd say the figure is nearer 30%, in terms of attacking at a height where the prospect of dying from ground-fire or your own bombs as a near certainty is concerned, Personally I see bomber pilots prosecuting hopelessly risky attacks more often than not.

As you yourself mentioned though, they do not want to, they have to.
No one wants to roll an HE-111 into town within rifle SMG and coax range, but they have no choice because currently the bombs have no effect on units outside of render distance.
And that poises them on a knife edge balancing hitting the targets and blowing their own tail off.
But they don't want to be down there, they want to be up high where they can drop properly and safely and live to RTB and get points etc.

Oh you get your nut bags now and then, i see the occasional havoc or db7 or he-111 making a ludicrous attempt to dive? or perhaps we should say glide bomb a tank.
Well, what we got here is
Failure to communicate,
there are some men you just can't reach  :) 

Fortunately most of them cant get a plane off the ground

21 minutes ago, undercova said:

allied bombs are like 50% weight of axis bombs but nevertheless they cause 2-300% more damage

yea, no

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, merlin51 said:

Do the bombs on a stuka use that? Stuka by nature drops very low from near vertical.
Though even if fake if you set the low alt planes to not arm if dropped under 200m or 300m, that pretty much puts it in the realm of if you drop here you are stupid anyways, so no adverse effect to the plane by imposing a small minimum drop height, right?

blens IV's and db7's and HE-111's should really be dropping above that magical 700m line (which becomes 500 or 600 real fast when you're trying to fly, watch the ground, manage bombardier etc)  where infantry cease to exist, bombs really need to be STO for that, and people should not really be tank hunting with HE-111s DB7s Havocs or even Blenheims, if for nothing else, new HE may very well blow your tail right off instead of just hearing those plinks.
And i am kind of sure all those bombers had arming timers of some sort or another to prevent accidents?

I have no idea on the arming mechanism used on the allied pseudo dive/glide bombers? just copy the low alt one from the stuka?

 

 

I am not so much worried about bombs hurting things too badly, that's kind of what they are supposed to do.
Just means i need my air to have superiority, may also mean i need to tow out and set up some dense AA gun formations and get some coordinated AA teams going.
 

Im seriously doubting too many people will suddenly become kamikazes, very few people do it now even though it works.
Mostly idiots, because even if you miss the tank, you just cost your side an expensive aircraft, and even if you hit it trading an expensive aircraft for a vickers is kind of embarrassing if you think about it.
Then again, there is always that one guy

 

Anyone know how this worked exactly? Seems a little nose spinner is way easier?
Guernsey%20liberation%20day2010%20082.jp

 

IIRC almost ALL bombs had fuse spinners or some type of delay with little exception.  The Stuka had a minimum safe bombing altitude in the range of about 1000' and that was pushing it. The spinner fuse was to protect the aircraft and pilot incase they screwed up on the drop..  In this game the pilots cannot see targets much farther than 1000' or they do not render an especially in the case of the Stuka that dives for targets its going not to pull out well with in the blast radius danger zone I suspect and for that matter so will the FBs in the game that still require a low altitude to hit targets.  IMHO the only real fix for this is to increase the render range for squishies and AFVs.. possible make the bombs STO. I do not see how you adjust without reducing the fragment height.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, stankyus said:

IIRC almost ALL bombs had fuse spinners or some type of delay with little exception.  The Stuka had a minimum safe bombing altitude in the range of about 1000' and that was pushing it. The spinner fuse was to protect the aircraft and pilot incase they screwed up on the drop..  In this game the pilots cannot see targets much farther than 1000' or they do not render an especially in the case of the Stuka that dives for targets its going not to pull out well with in the blast radius danger zone I suspect and for that matter so will the FBs in the game that still require a low altitude to hit targets.  IMHO the only real fix for this is to increase the render range for squishies and AFVs.. possible make the bombs STO. I do not see how you adjust without reducing the fragment height.

AFV's render pretty far, squishies though, they vanish at 700m. Now if you are diving down for a bomb drop, they dont magically all appear it takes a moment for your client to acknowledge and prioritize them, so you wind up lower still figuring you are diving at 300km/h or so.
STO applied to bombs would address that, no need to worry if the squishies have loaded, just need good intel from your ground forces.
AFV's etc render far enough away to drop properly, ships are no issue

I can't figure out how the german bombs worked, the the SC250 etc
The noses are solid, the fuse goes through the side at the rearward portion, so no spinners.
The fuses come in various varieties one that even detonates up to 72 hours AFTER inpact.
But i can't find anything that tells me how the arming delay works, or how that box pictured functions.

Not that it matters for game purposes but im curious

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jerry employed electrically fused bombs, almost exclusively. The aircraft charged a capacitor in the bomb, and the fuse was electrically made safe until some seconds after leaving the aircraft. The capacitor then provided the power to operate the fuse and detonate the bomb. The exception to this was the type 17 clockwork fuse, which was mechanically detonated, making then dangerous UXB's long after the capacitors in most other bombs has disapated their charge. Type 50 and Zus 40 anti-handling fuses also remain dangerous to this day, because of their mechanical nature. So the Germans didn't need the air-driven arming devices of allied bombs, however, in effect, they're the same - both prevent the bomb from arming until it's well clear of the aircraft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So in theory, you could have a booboo in an axis plane that you wouldn't elsewhere?
Well except a japanese plane

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, merlin51 said:

So in theory, you could have a booboo in an axis plane that you wouldn't elsewhere?
Well except a japanese plane

If I understand you correctly, quite the opposite, both axis (electrical) and allied (air-fused) devices precluded the bomb being armed until some seconds after it departed the aircraft. The wires on American  bombs were simply mechanical stops for the air-fuse, so it couldn't begin to spin-up until actually dropped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 5:53 PM, merlin51 said:

AFV's render pretty far, squishies though, they vanish at 700m. Now if you are diving down for a bomb drop, they dont magically all appear it takes a moment for your client to acknowledge and prioritize them, so you wind up lower still figuring you are diving at 300km/h or so.
STO applied to bombs would address that, no need to worry if the squishies have loaded, just need good intel from your ground forces.
AFV's etc render far enough away to drop properly, ships are no issue

I can't figure out how the german bombs worked, the the SC250 etc
The noses are solid, the fuse goes through the side at the rearward portion, so no spinners.
The fuses come in various varieties one that even detonates up to 72 hours AFTER inpact.
But i can't find anything that tells me how the arming delay works, or how that box pictured functions.

Not that it matters for game purposes but im curious

STO would address a squishy issue, render distance so you can aquire hard targets needs to be adjusted. They need to be balanced out with the new HE.  STO or a version of it and render distance needs to be checked.  ATM to aquire, line up and keep out of the blast radius is already difficult as it is and as you know you often receive blast damage already.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, stankyus said:

STO would address a squishy issue, render distance so you can aquire hard targets needs to be adjusted. They need to be balanced out with the new HE.  STO or a version of it and render distance needs to be checked.  ATM to aquire, line up and keep out of the blast radius is already difficult as it is and as you know you often receive blast damage already.

Yea i take my own flak damage a lot of im trying to put bombs on marked EI areas, even with the 40's it makes a mess of the plane.
Tanks and ATG/AAA not so bad, they render farther away than i can actually recognize them with my eyeballs, if i am level bombing i can drop from 2km
and it will hit them, only problem being you have to fly slow and circle your drop area until the bombs hit the ground, because if you leave that bubble of rendering area
those ground targets cease to exist.
STO would allow you to come in at 5km flying balls to the wall max speed, have your bombardier drop a salvo of 8 in tight grouping, and get out of dodge
and not have to worry that none of your bombs counted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

Yea i take my own flak damage a lot of im trying to put bombs on marked EI areas, even with the 40's it makes a mess of the plane.
Tanks and ATG/AAA not so bad, they render farther away than i can actually recognize them with my eyeballs, if i am level bombing i can drop from 2km
and it will hit them, only problem being you have to fly slow and circle your drop area until the bombs hit the ground, because if you leave that bubble of rendering area
those ground targets cease to exist.
STO would allow you to come in at 5km flying balls to the wall max speed, have your bombardier drop a salvo of 8 in tight grouping, and get out of dodge
and not have to worry that none of your bombs counted.

Exactly - just the other day 2 HE111s came in at high altitude level bombing the ab. I could see the 111, hear the 111, see the bombs incoming, hear them coming and one managed to stitch the AB area. We had bofors and light flak in the AB, a laffly loaded with ATGs leaving the Veh... me as infantry watching it come down. The bombs ran across the AB... not a single person died.  I could see all of it, the HE111 obviously was out of render distances for any of us but if STO was in.. we would have all died.  I don't understand why I could see all of that yet be unaffected by it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's quite simple, the bombs can only hit something in visual-range from the firer, so it's impossible for infantry to kill other infantry beyond 700m - because they don't render. In the same way, a bomber-pilot at altitude is out of visual range of you below, and so no calculations are performed for damage. You can see him, because the render distance for infantry viewing aircraft is much further than that of aircraft viewing infantry (and most other ground units). The disparity causes the "weirdness" - but it also allows air-combat to be smoother, as above a certain height masses of infantry in towns are not having to be processed by the pilots pc. Make sense? if this didn't happen, and if one was circling near a town, every time your view encompassed the town - and all the infantry therein - you would likely lag, or your frame-rate would go to pot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Inf render visualy to 700m, viz list tracks them out to 1km. Tanks/trucks/aa/atgs vizlist out to around 2.5km. 

You could see the 111, he could not "see" you as inf either visualy or in vislist.

Also bombs are not STO so only the bomb dropper sees accurately where they land, 3rd person can see them +-50m of where the bomb dropper sees them.

Inf used to render both visualy and vislist farther out but caused bad stutters while flying over heavy AOs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bombing needs to be done at 500m AGL and below to have maximum effect (our plane is moving too thus forcing us to drop well below 700m limit).  Thats why we bomb at low altitude. 

Allow our bombs to hurt the enemy above 700m, and you'll see us bomb higher than 700m.  Heck, give the Dambusters 5km+ render and we'll still drop it right into the AB bucket.  Even on a cloudy day.

Edited by forrest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, fidd said:

It's quite simple, the bombs can only hit something in visual-range from the firer, so it's impossible for infantry to kill other infantry beyond 700m - because they don't render. In the same way, a bomber-pilot at altitude is out of visual range of you below, and so no calculations are performed for damage. You can see him, because the render distance for infantry viewing aircraft is much further than that of aircraft viewing infantry (and most other ground units). The disparity causes the "weirdness" - but it also allows air-combat to be smoother, as above a certain height masses of infantry in towns are not having to be processed by the pilots pc. Make sense? if this didn't happen, and if one was circling near a town, every time your view encompassed the town - and all the infantry therein - you would likely lag, or your frame-rate would go to pot.

Yah I understand that mechanic..  and why...  how ever when I fly over a large fight as it is and well with in render range, Im not lagging at all.  I really don't see why they cannot up the render range for hard targets a few hundred meters

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 3:57 PM, stankyus said:

Yah I understand that mechanic..  and why...  how ever when I fly over a large fight as it is and well with in render range, Im not lagging at all.  I really don't see why they cannot up the render range for hard targets a few hundred meters

 

Your pc now is orders of magnitude more powerful than they were in 2001, where we used wet-pieces of string to connect to the net over telephone-lines, and frame-rates could burble along at 25 fps. It's a legacy thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/12/2017 at 5:08 PM, xanthus said:

Wait a second.

What's the problem with suicidal planes? What exactly is unrealistic about that? The Japanese were obviously not the only ones to use it in WWII, and suicide bombers are encountered fairly routinely in modern war zones today. I'm not seeing what the problem is if someone wants to spawn a bomber and then decides to kamikaze a tank. How exactly is that unrealistic or unrepresentative of real warfare? I don't see how it amounts to griefing.

In my opinion, we should also allow inf to be able to cook a grenade and then run into EI (e.g. to clear a CP). I can see players complaining, but I absolutely see absolutely zero wrong with it, and it perfectly aligns (all too well) with what I personally know about the battlefield.

I'm not a big fan, but I must say you are correct in that the "Kamikaze"  was a real and honest threat.  HOWEVER,  go back and watch ANY Kamikaze attack footage and you will find that the Kamikaze attacks were met with horrendous and ungodly amounts of  5"-guns, 40mm and 20mm  AA fire.   

Even if a side were to deploy every single AA gun in inventory (Hypothetical of course) you still wouldn't have enough guns to even begin to defend against said attacks. 

As far as cooking a nade and sacrificing yourself for the team, I guess it would be ok,  but maybe add a small penalty for performing said act, I don't know.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.