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called100

More PPOs

42 posts in this topic

The addition of Sandbags, FMS, and tank traps has been perhaps my favorite recent update. However, I think these could be improved more.

PPOs should have much more effect on game play if you ask me.  

1. Currently PPOs have a timer on them that makes them despawn after a certain amount of time. I realize this is to prevent people from spamming massive amounts of PPOs and lower lag. However, This limits the potential of fortifications to the point that it isn't worth it.  Think about what we could do if PPOs stayed on the map until they were destroyed- We could set up massive fortifications or redoubts around and near towns days in advance. This way, if a side is being pushed back at a fast pace on the map, these fortifications set up in advance could slow down the winning side greatly, and provide the defenders a chance to catch their breath- sort of like the Hindenburg line in WW1.

2. As it stands, PPOs offer minimal protection the the players. Believe me, I loved the sandbags when they came out. They were a step in the right direction for more fortifications. Yet, these still leave relatively large portions of the player exposed. the upper shoulders and head are completely visible, and considering how good a shot vets with bolt actions are, they are almost pointless. Take a look at this image:

d80c18e860611af5f1a1a3d7deaf4fda.jpg

I think the sandbags we have currently should be replaced with something like this. The loopholes are still large enough for a skilled player to get shots into, but this protects more of the head. We could make it take longer to construct these obviously because they are more complex. If CRS wants to go an extra mile, a corner version like this, and a straight version would allow us to make killer forts.

3. Allow PPOs to intersect each other. We all know that currently, your PPOs need to have a certain distance from each other before you are allowed to build them.  This creates a big problem for those constructing- if our objects need to have space between each other, it leaves holes in the lines where men can get shot through. All I am asking is CRS allows the PPOs to intersect slightly to prevent this, and allow us to build continuous lines.

4. New PPOs. Two things I think we need- Bomb shelters, and Barbed wire.  The bomb shelters should be much like the FMS- however, it should look more fortified (sandbags covering it everywhere or more dirt on the roof); Just make it look sturdy. It should also include a wall in front of the entrance to prevent the HE from a bomb from entering it (look the the AF bunker for inspiration). The bomb shelters should be able to withstand maybe 2 dozen or so 250KG bombs before giving out.  

The Barbed wire should be perhaps maybe 25-45M in length. Allowing it to be blown up by 1 satchel charge, several grenades, or a vehicle driving over it would be good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Yep, PPOs can be such an improvement to game.

Need more of them, need them to be allowed to be placed in bldgs and almost any other terrain, allow sand bags to be stacked to create AA pits.

I think the foxholes stays around for 20 min or so, the rest stay for a few hours, that isn't too bad.

 

BUT, need to work the aircraft bombs, they are terribly overpowered right now.  One bomb destroys every PPO in like a 100m radius, very sad.

Need that to be like 9 bombs at least to destroy a ZOC (i.e. more than what 1 plane can carry)

 

PPOs offer a huge opportunity to the game imo, ladders, pontoon bridges, etc.

 

Edited by delems

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depends on the PPO, ive noticed bombs can clear sandbags and foxholes fast, makes sense except that a foxhole is really underground, so ours is really an adhoc personal berm.
Gun bunkers not so fast if not direct hit or close, and hedgehogs they seem to miss a lot (understandable)

Id like to see a few more long duration PPO's

The concrete MG pill box - used from ingame
The sandbag MG nest - modified from ingame
A raised AA pit that a bofors can fit in - modified from ingame
The AI MG tower, minus the AI, with a modified climbable ramp - steal ramp from windmill
A wider longer gun bunker with only the dirt berm, no wood, for bedding tanks hull down in - modified from ingame
Cammo net that an 88 etc can fit under - steal 1 way camo texture from old bunker
Maybe a smaller roofless gunbunker for stealthy hiding of ATG's

Like to see rebuild timer enhanced by presence of truck so it reloads much faster

Like to see some PPO's perhaps deployable by non infantry units, like an ATG can deploy at least 1 gunbunker every say 20 minutes, 88 and put up 1 cammo net, something like that not absolute suggestions, since the unit is supposed to represent its entire crew, id imagine they have shovels?


Dont mind the current restrictions, it makes you think and adapt
But i do think hedgehogs should go on RR tracks

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I'd actually like to see trenches as PPOs. They would be excellent for setting up a zoc if done properly. A well planned attack could surround their FMS' with trenches, hindering camping of them and providing a strong base to defend it from. The benefits to defense are without need of mention of course. They would be fantastic out in the field, providing cover for advancing troops and acting as a forward strongpoint if you can manage to build one. Combine with barbed wire to keep the enemy from popping in anywhere they like and you've got a solid and flexible tool. 

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they would need to be raised berm assemblies due to terrain limitations, but ok sounds cool

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The first thing that needs to be overcome is the fact that PPOs despawn when there is no one left in the mission that made them. This makes serious limitations on how complex you can make stuff.

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*** The first thing that needs to be overcome is the fact that PPOs despawn when there is no one left in the mission that made them

Don't think this is true, PPOs last a few hours at least far as I know.  Foxholes go away pretty quick, 20 min maybe, but not the bigger ones.

 

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I messaged KMS and he told me there is not a timer on them. They go away when no one is left in the mission that placed them.

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4 hours ago, called100 said:

I messaged KMS and he told me there is not a timer on them. They go away when no one is left in the mission that placed them.

Good to know. I had been operating under the assumption that there was a time value associated with them.

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All the PPOs need to have their build times decreased drastically. The devs need to recognize that they have a FPS world made of nothing but flat open fields and nearly zero cover, only bush lines every 2-300 meters. When they have too many PPOs being built at a battle then the PPOs can be tweaked, but right now there are too few. As far as I can tell the devs are actually afraid of PPOs becoming too powerful, as if a wall of sandbags placed next to an ATG bunker to provide infantry cover would break the game.

 

On 9/25/2017 at 9:44 PM, delems said:

BUT, need to work the aircraft bombs, they are terribly overpowered right now.  One bomb destroys every PPO in like a 100m radius, very sad.

Yeah I noticed that after I got some greentags to actually press 9 and X and start building cover, and a lone DB7 nukes the entire area with a single bomb. Stuff like this is why I don't have any confidence in CRS's ability to balance. It's like they get all of their balance feedback from a handful of tankers and pilots, and go live with their suggestions without any further consideration. They say they want "ZOC gameplay" and post about how the best way to capture a town is to park outside of it and build PPOs, but with bombs the way they are building a group of PPOs is basically piddling around instead of trying to win.

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*** I messaged KMS and he told me there is not a timer on them. They go away when no one is left in the mission that placed them.

Well, I find half of what any rat says is false, and I don't believe this.

Been in many areas where there were PPOs, then the battle left (along with everyone), then hours later I have come back and all the PPOs are still there.

Maybe this just changed?  Easy enough to check.  Maybe I'll log on for a few minutes during intermission and test it.

 

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15 hours ago, called100 said:

I messaged KMS and he told me there is not a timer on them. They go away when no one is left in the mission that placed them.

 

2 hours ago, delems said:

Well, I find half of what any rat says is false, and I don't believe this.

The ammo box is on a timer of some sort, it only remains for a certain time or maybe its a certain amount of useage but that makes sense or it would be perpetual ammo.

sand bags, and gun bunkers, and hedgehogs, i have placed and witnessed them remain in game for 4+ hours
Foxholes i can not say simply because they get lost track of too easily, i can never re-find them lol.

Would only take one guy who went afk and didnt exit the mission to keep them valid
and he didnt say KMS mentioned how long after the mission closes, could be hours so that they dont vanish for people on another mission using them to hide behind?
 

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On 30/09/2017 at 1:37 PM, called100 said:

I messaged KMS and he told me there is not a timer on them. They go away when no one is left in the mission that placed them.

From what I remind, a PPO desappear if no player came close of it for some time. 

So each time you walk near a PPO it resets its despawn timer 

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*** I messaged KMS and he told me there is not a timer on them. They go away when no one is left in the mission that placed them.

Don't think this is accurate.

Foxholes and ammo cache stay around for 20 min or so, rest of the PPOs stay around for a few hours.

This is easy to test.

Also, just walk over the PPO to reset it's 'remove' timer, so it stays around longer.

 

The real problem with PPOs, is they provide no cover to ea, bombers destroy every PPO in a 100m radius or so with ease, 1 bomb.

What use in trying to create a ZOC, i.e. cover, when 1 bomb from a looping db7 destroys all your work?
 

The allied ea in game is really way over powered, not to mention axis has the flak 30, a 1934 AA gun.... when the flak 38 was available and adopted for use in 1939, why doesn't axis have the flak 38?

Not only that, the Flakvierling 38 was available in 1940, where is it?

 

 

PS the axis light AA has a 0.25 KD against bombers, the allied light AA has a 0.75 KD....  the bombers and AA are not balanced.

 

Edited by delems
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While everything you guys are saying is probably true, my point still remains that the PPOs should be more resilient to bombs, and should NOT disappear  unless bombed enough.

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It seems to me that making PPO's even faster to create is sheer nonsense, with respect. Perhaps the way to go might be to make all PPO's - except foxholes - only  place-able before an AO is applied, up to a limited number of various objects within a given area. These would them remain persistent until destroyed - by either side. The latter is important, as no doubt some would place the limit of PPO's and then change sides before attacking the same town.  If one captured a town, you'd have to demolish a bunch of enemy PPO's with sappers before one could start building defensive PPO's, again excepting the humble foxhole.

(Some form  of fairly nasty penalty would need to be applied to players recorded as doing this, and perhaps to their squads as well. I would suggest limiting members of that squad to riflemen only, if attacking a town that one of their members has previously placed PPO's as the other side. They'd be free  to fight at a different AO with normal access to kit of course.) I would suggest also that the "guilty party" be also identified to the squad now finding themselves limited to rifles, so that the reverse grief could be taken care of). These measures would then effectively mandate that those who lay these PPO's are staying on one side on the medium term.

Personally I'd like to see marked mixed AT/anti infantry  minefields, laid prior to AO's to help channel trucks and tanks to known approaches, and lengths of (say) 75m of wire to do the same for infantry by way of an integral collider that would stop infantry, provide no cover to fire, and remain more or less impervious to HE/bombs. These two types of PPO would require sides to send out demolition sorties to recce and destroy such obstac;les prior to an AO being placed. This has the advantage of creating a need for both sides to probe enemy towns, and to look to their own "fences" in turn, providing good scope for interesting changes to gameplay as well as the prospect of small unit action both on and off-peak. I think it would also be very important that not all towns have all types of PPO available at all times. Liking their availability to certain brigades would be possible, but that might get problematical when the brigade that made them gets moved. The answer may lie in creating a few "engineer-companies",  which could be paired by HC with a given town in much the same fashion as full brigade would be moved, but which would add  sappers/engineers to that towns Brigades spawn-list. In this way the ability to lay PPO's of the more fortified variety: mines, wire, ATG emplacements, and AT obstacles would be limited to a few - important - towns on the map most of the time. It would also add a dimension  that made specific and limited towns more difficult to zerg off-peak if left ready for defense at peak-time, and vice versa. Antyhing that compels differnent tactics from  one town to another is a good thing imho.

That's my thruppence worth.

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On 10/1/2017 at 8:51 AM, delems said:

*** I messaged KMS and he told me there is not a timer on them. They go away when no one is left in the mission that placed them.

Don't think this is accurate.

Foxholes and ammo cache stay around for 20 min or so, rest of the PPOs stay around for a few hours.

This is easy to test.

Also, just walk over the PPO to reset it's 'remove' timer, so it stays around longer.

 

The real problem with PPOs, is they provide no cover to ea, bombers destroy every PPO in a 100m radius or so with ease, 1 bomb.

What use in trying to create a ZOC, i.e. cover, when 1 bomb from a looping db7 destroys all your work?
 

The allied ea in game is really way over powered, not to mention axis has the flak 30, a 1934 AA gun.... when the flak 38 was available and adopted for use in 1939, why doesn't axis have the flak 38?

Not only that, the Flakvierling 38 was available in 1940, where is it?

 

 

PS the axis light AA has a 0.25 KD against bombers, the allied light AA has a 0.75 KD....  the bombers and AA are not balanced.

 

I too support stronger PPOs.  I also support adding Flak38 and better AAA guns overall.  

On 10/2/2017 at 3:27 PM, called100 said:

While everything you guys are saying is probably true, my point still remains that the PPOs should be more resilient to bombs, and should NOT disappear  unless bombed enough.

I agree.

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6 minutes ago, fidd said:

If one captured a town, you'd have to demolish a bunch of enemy PPO's with sappers before one could start building defensive PPO's, again excepting the humble foxhole.

I'm afraid that would just make for horrible and tedious game play

7 minutes ago, fidd said:

Perhaps the way to go might be to make all PPO's - except foxholes - only  place-able before an AO is applied

That makes no sense, that means attackers can mostly never use PPO's
That would be a horrible and unfair restriction, and defenders have to run around setting them in anticipation of an AO which may not come.
I think that would simply be hated across the board by the playerbase.

10 minutes ago, fidd said:

(Some form  of fairly nasty penalty would need to be applied to players recorded as doing this, and perhaps to their squads as well. I would suggest limiting members of that squad to riflemen only, if attacking a town that one of their members has previously placed PPO's as the other side. They'd be free  to fight at a different AO with normal access to kit of course.) I would suggest also that the "guilty party" be also identified to the squad now finding themselves limited to rifles, so that the reverse grief could be taken care of). These measures would then effectively mandate that those who lay these PPO's are staying on one side on the medium term.

That is awful, now we are officially punishing someone for perhaps playing the under pop side, then he logs to eat come back sees that pop has swung the other way, logs back in with his squad and is slapped with the badge of shame?
Bad idea i think.  What issue has prompted this idea?

 

PPO's that require too much micromanagement and tedious fidgeting to use will simply go unused.

They work fine as they are now i think, they just need a few more kinds, and perhaps presence of truck speeding their reload timer, i think at least.

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7 minutes ago, forrest said:

I also support adding Flak38

isnt the flak38 essentially the same as the flak30?
in which case the only way for real improvement is multiple barrels like the Flakvierling

I mean just switching a flak38 for a flak30 essentially just gives you the same single barrel 20mm gun with negligible differences right?
Or maybe i am missing something?

FLAK30
Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-301-1953-24,_Sein

FLAK38
Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-219-0597-15,_Russ

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4 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

isnt the flak38 essentially the same as the flak30?
in which case the only way for real improvement is multiple barrels like the Flakvierling

I mean just switching a flak38 for a flak30 essentially just gives you the same single barrel 20mm gun with negligible differences right?
Or maybe i am missing something?

FLAK30
Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-301-1953-24,_Sein

FLAK38
Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-219-0597-15,_Russ

Shhh...  ;^)

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3 minutes ago, forrest said:

Shhh...  ;^)

This may be cool, i dont know its effectiveness nor that the bofors does not outclass it already
Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-301-1957-32,_Nord

 

Or this, which is confusingly named a FlaK 38 not to be confused with a Flak 38???  er wait im confused
like an 88 but no AP shells, no idea if it has a towable ground fire carriage?
Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-621-2942-17,_Schw

If i was axis though, and was given to whining, i'd be whining for this in T2
I have no idea how id be towing it but yes, Flakzwilling 40 please :) 


12.8_cm_Flakzwilling_40_1.jpg

 

I tease sort of, none of these larger guns would be of any use in game as AAA platforms, no more so that the 88 is now.
They need some mechanics created to be effective, altitude fuse settings at the bare minimum, chained fire control would be awesome, proper flak rounds etc.
 

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The question you need to ask yourself, I suggest, is how prevalent you want PPO's to be across the game, ie, at every town, more or less equally, or, an available tool for players at towns nominated by the HC's? The latter is I would submit, far the better result. As for attacking PPO's - of the emplacement variety, in my view - and YMMV - it's daft they're available for attacking players within 2 km or so of towns, again, excepting the foxhole. Attacking players, could, however, fortify the area around their own FB prior the AO, to aid it's defense. There will always be a small contingent of players who enjoy doing their bit at these less onerous tasks, and demolishing enemy PPO's would become part of the process of strengthening it against counter-attack, or, at the very least, perhaps compelling the enemy HC to move their engineer companies back if it's retaken again. It's a tool, nothing more.

As for the under-pop switchers. not an issue at all, as all they need to do is not go around putting down the larger PPO's (mines/wire/ATG emplacments and similar) on one of the two sides they play. Provided they adhere to this simple limitation, no trouble would result; and frankly I think it's a most reasonable measure to forestall griefing. Although I've not played for some years, and a lot has changed since I left, over the years I've seen, from time to time,  all manner of exploitation of unintended loopholes, glitches, bugs and sheer gaming the game. The simple truth is that there exists amongst us a small proportion of players, who unless such things are designed out, will bugger the game up for the rest of us.; given the chance; as in all such games. I'm not saying it's common, or even happens these days, but it certainly has reared it's head over the years.

Personally, and again YMMV, I think that adding requirements for recce - to identify fortified towns - is a good thing, as is making them the exception, rather than the norm. But when encountered, they should provide formidable obstacles, requiring time and effort to penetrate, or prepare for an AO, and likewise some effort to keep defenses up to snuff.

Edited by fidd

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3 minutes ago, fidd said:

The question you need to ask yourself, I suggest, is how prevalent you want PPO's to be across the game, ie, at every town, more or less equally, or, an available tool for players at towns nominated by the HC's?

Where ever players in the field feel they are needed
HC has enough to do without micromanaging whether Joey Feduchi from brooklyn new york can place a sandbag wall between him and something that's coming to shoot at him or not.

5 minutes ago, fidd said:

As for the under-pop switchers. not an issue at all, as all they need to do is not go around putting down the larger PPO's (mines/wire/ATG emplacments and similar) on one of the two sides they play.

So for doing their part to help make sure the teams are even, we shall punish them?
Hey, because the other guy was underpopulated badly an hour ago, and you guys went to help them out, we are going to reward you by disbarring you from making use of part of the game, and if you do we slap you with the badge of shame.

Call me silly, but i don't see much support for that.

 

I can only think something very weird happened to you in game to want to start severely limiting use of PPO, which overall are probably under utilized now.

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