delems

Why 1944 SMG in tier 0?

241 posts in this topic

What is with this 1944 SMG grease gun still doing in the game?  Have we no integrity at all?

 

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we lost our integrity when snipers got pistols. 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, delems said:

What is with this 1944 SMG grease gun still doing in the game?  Have we no integrity at all?

 

I am not sure, i was wondering and asking the same thing when the campaign started
I am thinking it was a mistake?

 

Maybe we should ask in bug forum?
I .bugged it in game

Edited by merlin51
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I am not sure exactly what Delems is talking about...

Was the grease gun in T0 last campaign?   Or is this something new introduced  in the current campaign?

Can you elaborate If something changed this campaign, or if this is just an old gripe resurfacing again?

Not everyone tracks the supply lists so closely in the brigades ias Delems usually does. :)

Edited by krazydog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, delems said:

What is with this 1944 SMG grease gun still doing in the game?  Have we no integrity at all?

 

Why is axis LMG still like it is? Have we no integrity at all?

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The grease gun has been in t0 since it entered the game. However be careful if it's not historical. It's not over balancing anything... no more than the mg34. Second, it does not matter to me tbh, however if we go down this road the fg42 should never enter into the HEER,  it should remain a para weapon. It's a give and take ATM. MB  they can take their place once the m1919, 30 cal carbine and stg44 enter, then the fg42 and grease gun should take thier historical place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@stankyus

In my ww2 Books i read something other.

The Fg42 enter the Heer after germany quit mostly of all his paratropper groups in the late 1943.

They send this soilders to the Heer Units for resupply and they use his own Fj stuff for this.

 

And you can read in german some Storys from old ww2 Soldiers, they use this gun and this guys where not fight in para groups. 

 

 

Why is our Fw190 kg in tier 1 it many 2?

The Fw190 A-0-A-4 enter the war as the spit 2 and iv Center the war.

The timeline is mostly again axis here in the game. 

Edited by sajuk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, gretnine said:

Why is axis LMG still like it is? Have we no integrity at all?

like it is what?
Filled with bullets?
It hasnt fired backwards in over a decade.
It works when i use it.
Can you be more specific?

 

I never notice the greasegun in T0, i only noticed it because it was the only thing left to spawn
and i was like hey whats that doing here, wrong tier.

 

2 hours ago, stankyus said:

however if we go down this road the fg42 should never enter into the HEER

I could care less what brigade they decide to deploy them to, britain got smart and shipped the M1's out of the homeguard armory to the front, so someone besides 3rd commando can use them.
Long as they appear at their correct time.

Maybe once the MAS38 is fixed, grease gun can go home to the tier it belongs in? (which is 4)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, merlin51 said:

like it is what?
Filled with bullets?
It hasnt fired backwards in over a decade.
It works when i use it.
Can you be more specific?

Like how it operates. Reload speed, the way you can hip fire it etc etc etc...

Axis whine about Grease Gun being Tier 0 and whatnot, allies whine about the LMG. If we want to be historically accurate and all that bull[censored], lets start with the equipment on both sides instead of one specific gun. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, delems said:

What is with this TOEs in 2017 still doing in the game?  Have we no integrity at all?

 

Fixed fte

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's see .

MP 40  pull trigger all over the place. Which in real life actually has very little recoil , ( enough videos on the net)

MG34  shoot from hip pull trigger all over the place. Actually pretty hard to hit something cause the recoil is insane. 

To be accurate with the MG 34 u have to deploy it otherwise it's a 50/50 proposition.  Sure take the run and gun away but like I said it's highly inaccurate unless deployed.

 

Grease gun ,no recoil , super accurate it's like a rifle but fully auto. So even EI farther away is no issue for it , not so with the MP40 or the other MP we have type escapes me right now.

Grease gun ,It should be in a different tier.

Make the FG42 a tier 1 or 2 weapon . The minimal load out you have with that gun and the numbers that can spawn does not even come close to the Grease gun. In tier 0

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, dre21 said:

Let's see .

MP 40  pull trigger all over the place. Which in real life actually has very little recoil , ( enough videos on the net)

MG34  shoot from hip pull trigger all over the place. Actually pretty hard to hit something cause the recoil is insane. 

To be accurate with the MG 34 u have to deploy it otherwise it's a 50/50 proposition.  Sure take the run and gun away but like I said it's highly inaccurate unless deployed.

 

Grease gun ,no recoil , super accurate it's like a rifle but fully auto. So even EI farther away is no issue for it , not so with the MP40 or the other MP we have type escapes me right now.

Grease gun ,It should be in a different tier.

Make the FG42 a tier 1 or 2 weapon . The minimal load out you have with that gun and the numbers that can spawn does not even come close to the Grease gun. In tier 0

 

Please you can not swing a dead cat by its tail and not hit a AXIS LMG doing his Rambo routine in a depot.  It was so bad last night at Maub that I was actively questioning how many of the damn things where in the spawn list and yes they are very effective fired from the hip in game any comment saying otherwise is a total fabrication of reality again in game. 

Edited by zbus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the grease gun is intended to balance the mg-34

:)

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, gretnine said:

Like how it operates. Reload speed, the way you can hip fire it etc etc etc...

? It operates fine ?
Belts go in one side, bullets come out the front, really fast, makes loud bang bang noises.


reload speed is about 1.1 seconds too fast, but to be fair the guy is opening the feed cover, which he does not have to be doing, so overall it might work out to less than a second.
the MG34 was designed to just keep cramming ammo in from the side without opening it, shove leader in and pull it til 1st round hits the feeder
and pull back the charging handle, repeat until barrel change, then resume.

Has blinding muzzle flash, so does everyone until after the patch.

Fires from jogging, as does the FN29, and the Bren, and the rifle, and the smgs, etc.
Should any of them be doing it? NO. I shouldn't be able to dash into a CP like Ruby Rod and start firing while im jogging around
with ANYTHING unless we are playing Team Fortress 2?

But can i fire them from the hip? Yes, all of them, if i'm not running around like a retard.
Aiming is a different story, but then hip firing isn't really about aiming, its about quick suppression to support an advance.

 

3 hours ago, dre21 said:

Grease gun ,no recoil

Wrong, it has recoil. Has quite a bit of recoil.
What it lacks is any kind of firing rate that any of the other automatics have.
It fires so slow its recoil is nearly over before it fires the next round.

3 hours ago, dre21 said:

super accurate it's like a rifle but fully auto.

Have you actually shot it? Have you actually even used it in the game at all?
 its nothing like a rifle at all. Its no more like a rifle than the MP40 is.
Before making these claims of using it to snipe people at 200m, perhaps actually go use one first rather than repeating what others have said?

3 hours ago, dre21 said:

MG34  shoot from hip pull trigger all over the place. Actually pretty hard to hit something cause the recoil is insane. 

To be accurate with the MG 34 u have to deploy it otherwise it's a 50/50 proposition.

And?  Have you fired a Bren or FN from the hip?
Hell fire any of the autos from the hip, especially while moving.
Spray N Pray, aim by bullet poofs. That is problematic how exactly?
Don't exactly have laser scopes in our crotches?

3 hours ago, dre21 said:

Grease gun ,It should be in a different tier.

That i agree with you on, put it in its proper place.
Fix the MAS38 up a little and send grease gun back to the future.

3 hours ago, dre21 said:

Make the FG42 a tier 1 or 2 weapon . The minimal load out you have with that gun and the numbers that can spawn does not even come close to the Grease gun. In tier 0

Dont know that you can actually compare the 2 anyways?
One is an automatic rifle, the other is a cheap smg.
Both belong in T3.

Your other SMG is the MP34 by the way. It belongs in T0, it was in service since like 1930.
Nice little single fire pop gun.

 


 

 

 

 

 

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, blakeh said:

I think the grease gun is intended to balance the mg-34

:)

no need to?
the MP34 (i assume you mean MP34?) doesnt need balancing
T0 axis should have MP40 and MP34, Brits should have M1928, French should have MAS38 (a fixed mas38 lol)
T1 axis should have MP40 and MP34, brits should have M1928 and Sten, French should have MAS38 and M1928
T2 axis should have MP40 and MP34, brits should have M1928 and Sten, French should have MAS38 and M1928 USA should have M1 Thompson
T3 axis should have MP40 and MP34, brits should have M1928 and Sten, French should have MAS38 and M1928 USA should have M1 Thompson and M3

if you meant the MG34? It needs no balancing via SMG
the FN and Bren could use a little bit better sight picture, and everyone could do without the opaque muzzle flash.
MG34 throws lots of ammo downrange fast, and the Bren can pick you out of the church tower at 700m, and the FN29 is just an all around good LMG.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The grease gun was never used by the french, pretty sure germans used the mg34.

The grease gun wasn't invented in 1940, pretty sure the mg34 existed in 1940.

 

Don't make the mistake of modeling something wrong (maybe reload speed, run and gun etc.), with creating fantasy that never existed, having armies using gear they never did or using gear years before it was invented.

If rifles or MGs reload at the wrong speed, fix them all.  For that matter, slow down our infantry sprint speed too?

 

But don't go comparing a modeling issue with a fantasy issue - there is no comparison between these discrepancies.

One is completely wrong in every way, the other is just an error in a parameter of the weapon.

 

And don't even bring in the FG42, there are 1000s of grease guns, what 10-15 FG42 per flag, and not even until tier 3, you need to do a  lot better than that.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

if you meant the MG34? It needs no balancing via SMG
the FN and Bren could use a little bit better sight picture, and everyone could do without the opaque muzzle flash.
MG34 throws lots of ammo downrange fast, and the Bren can pick you out of the church tower at 700m, and the FN29 is just an all around good LMG.
 

He meant the MG-34. 

 

There is no greater small arms disparity between the Axis and the Allies than the LMG selection.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the problem with the MG34 is it does the opposite of "neo-stopping-bullets-mid-air".

it's 50 riflemen in 50 different locations shooting at the same time. it doesn't behave like a single gun.

 

ALL LMG's are like this, the MG34 just has more ammo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

this is been brought up a lot before and what they said recently  is that the grease gun at some point in the future will not be in the earlier tiers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, delems said:

The grease gun was never used by the french, pretty sure germans used the mg34.

France effectively ceased to exist in june 1940. They didn't use anything.
Perhaps we should remove France from the game at the end of tier 0?
There is no Historic equipment breakdown for the french army from June 1940 until de Gaulle got the ball rolling again.

What was left of the free French Forces after June used what ever they were given.
de Gaulle did not exactly get a rousing show of support after the armistice, most of the guys evacuated from Dunkerque just wanted to go home and just leave things be, so we have this gap of time where there is effectively no French army unless you count a few thousand men as an army. 
Other troops stationed in the colonies etc did not fancy the idea of picking a side either, there is this whole gap of time where you wonder if anyone besides britain and america believe there is a free fighting france anymore.

And all they evacuated at Dunkerque was men, they didnt load up any S35s or B1's etc.

It took de Gaulle a while to get support and rebuild a french army, and he didn't outfit them with the latest and greatest from MAS.

So unless you want to just remove them and have it be Britain VS Germany from the 3rd day of T0 until T2, you are going to have to decide what the US and Britain might choose to supply them with.

1 hour ago, delems said:

The grease gun wasn't invented in 1940

I think we have already established that eleventy times, now eleventy one.
We have also already established that it belongs in tier 3, and while in no way a game breaking thing we are simply wondering how or why it got left laying around in T0.
So what are you braying on about?

 

1 hour ago, delems said:

And don't even bring in the FG42, there are 1000s of grease guns, what 10-15 FG42 per flag, and not even until tier 3, you need to do a  lot better than that.

Why are we talking about the FG42?
It is not an SMG, it is a heavy assault rifle
There are 25 M3 and 15 FG42 per infantry flag (i had to go look)
so yes, there are more M3's than FG42's, there are also more MP40's MP34's, MAS39's M1928's, BREN's, FN29's and MG34's than FG42's
There is probably more of everything except Grenadiers than FG42's
I dont see what the point is?

 

48 minutes ago, major0noob said:

ALL LMG's are like this, the MG34 just has more ammo

smartest post in the thread ^^^^^^^^^^^

1 hour ago, Capco said:

There is no greater small arms disparity between the Axis and the Allies than the LMG selection.

it vomits ammo, and it carries more per what ever means you wish to load it, belt or any flavor of drum.
That cant be changed, it is what it is.

No one thought to make a 50 round mag for the FN29, and the M1931 variant which does have a 150 round side mounted mag was for fixed mount use.

The Bren did get its larger 30 round mag, and its only other option is the 150 round pan mag, probably not a good choice in the age of jogging CP rambos

Other than that, they are what they are, you cant change that, cant nerf the MG34 to run 20 round belts that never existed or have it fire at the rate of an M3 no more than we can make a nonexistent 50 round mag for the FN29.

Nothing really wrong with either of the 3 weapons.
If we could just make it non viable to go storming into a CP like this with all of them, i think they will be just fine
 

N6iSH60.gif
KABLAM! YOU'RE DEAD!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Never understood why Allies like the grease gun so much . . . and why Axis hate it so much . . . it's never my first choice unless I'm FMS hunting. It is the most inferior allied auto at close-range, it is really only superior mid-range. Heck, CRS doesn't even count the gun on stats.

Also realize we have 1/5 the number of grease guns compared to the other SMGs, so I believe the magic MG-34 has the edge there number-wise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, merlin51 said:

France effectively ceased to exist in june 1940. They didn't use anything. (...) There is no Historic equipment breakdown for the french army from June 1940 until de Gaulle got the ball rolling again.

I don't care a lot about the OP issue here...I'm satisfied that eventually CRS will replace the grease gun with something more French.

I however don't like seeing the no-French-weapons-after-T0 argument. I've been here continuously since pretty early. I don't think old-CRS ever said that, and I don't think new-CRS has stated that either.

What old-CRS said was that...subject to availability of development resources...the sides were eligible to get weapons that they made, starting in the tier after they were developed and ready for use; or that they bought or contracted to buy, starting in the tier after delivery was scheduled to first occur; or that they were using as of May 1940, starting in T0.

CRS also gave the French weapons that they certainly didn't buy, but were given...for instance, Shermans and Stuarts. I think that was motivated by practicality/desperation, when it became apparent that there weren't going to be sufficient resources to stick to the original weapon-availability rule.

The French had contracted to buy lots of weapons from French manufacturers, that hadn't made it to the battlefield yet in 1940. They also had contracted to buy a number of weapons from USA. It's bogus to argue that there won't be any valid options for a proper French T1, when development resources permit.

Edited by jwilly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, anusiya said:

Never understood why Allies like the grease gun so much . . . and why Axis hate it so much . . . it's never my first choice unless I'm FMS hunting. It is the most inferior allied auto at close-range, it is really only superior mid-range. Heck, CRS doesn't even count the gun on stats.

Also realize we have 1/5 the number of grease guns compared to the other SMGs, so I believe the magic MG-34 has the edge there number-wise.

If your brit, you got the thompson and life is good

If you are french, you have the MAS38, which normally what would be a good thing, even the axis liked the MAS38, they continued to make and use them
after the armistice, but the original MAS38 came out really bad, Not as bad as the MP40, it never shot backwards, but the physics of the thing were all off.
Initially it would climb nearly vertical when firing it, the old dev team kind of addressed that but it is kind of a quick hack fix or seems so.
Seems that they simply clamped the upper limit rather than audit the physics for the weapon.
So what you have is a low power SMG with a unique design that should make it actually very stable to shoot, but instead is like trying to loosely hold a sawsall
while you try and put a coarse wood blade on the edge of a piece of sheet steel, while having the blade tip impact a 2X4.

Dont get me wrong, it is better than it originally was, you would literally run out of desk before you would check the barrel rise.

So that is why people playing french pick it, they have some chance of aiming it past the 1st round.
Even trying to burst fire it is frustrating, which is a shame because it is uniquely french which is something that does not last long.

That said, i am pretty sure once scotsman's work gets through Q&A and out to patch, the MAS38 will be a nice little SMG to fire and no one will miss the M3 going off to tier 3.

I find the M3 good for very close quarters, the heavy slow .45 has decent stopping power and the dispersion doesnt bother you much and the low ROF is actually a plus
making your ammo last longer, but once you're out past 20m the dispersion plus the low ROF dont help it much, especially if the target is moving.
Past 50m, as with all SMG's aiming becomes guess work because you have to increasingly put the target someplace under the guns sights so you can eventually no longer really see what you are shooting at, which is why we have long guns.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jwilly said:

I don't think old-CRS ever said that, and I don't think new-CRS has stated that either.

I never said they did, nor did i suggest that is what we should do, i was asking the person i was responding to what do they propose to do, because unless axis steamroll
all the french brigades to the training grounds and wafflestomp the brits back to the UK in Tier 0, our country of france exists beyond june 1940 as a sovereign entity, at war but intact.

So now what?
They must be supplied with something, they are not 3,000 supporters of de Gualle exiled to Britain, they are the entire unbroken french friggin army.
 Some of their equipment would stand the test of time, the FN29 would be relevant in all tiers and beyond, a proper working MAS38 would as well, the real axis saw fit to keep using it.
All their armor and all their ATG's though cease to remain relevant extremely fast.

Where do we go then?
We have some designs and even prototypes from before the fall but aside from a few examples that found themselves pressed into duty, most of it is untested
unfinalized and some even unbuilt period.
Hell the ARL-44 never became a reality until after the war and by then it was outdated.
Oh it was probably awesomness for 1942, but not 1946 and later.

There are a lot of people who say in game or in this forum or others that this game is stupid that it has french forces driving around US equipment, that france never had M4 shermans, or M3's or M10 TD's etc etc, but when de Gualle got the remaining forces rallied again, that is exactly what they got supplied with, it's really the only option they had, their factories were now in enemy territory their R&D programs all but shut down, and no place to build anything they could have designed, british and american production facilities were already tied up and tooled up to build the weapon du jour, and the major ammo and parts supply chains came in 2 flavors british and american, and the americans were the ones with the untouchable production and shipping monster, so france enters back into the fight sporting a whole lot of not french kit.

And though our france does not capitulate (at least not separately) they have no verifiable progression out of 1940 aside from the examples real life gives us.
Half a handful of tier 1 units is the best that could be pulled off in native kit, if we rule out everthing that wasnt sitting around in nearly finalized form unless we want to take a long journey down the guesstimation fantasy lane.

Imagine what would happen if you put a char G1 in game sporting an arl 42 turret with 75mm hv gun? or ARL V39, or SAu 40? or an FCM F1 sporting 100mm of armor and a 90mm and 47mm gun? Cause in 1940, france could have handed the world its arse in tank design, but they never made it to the real world. there is no hostorical use and performance data, and i doubt the playerbase would ever accept them.


Everything else they had was loaned given donated borrowed, or, since they have not fallen, can be assumed to be fulfillment of the orders placed that simply never got to be delivered, france had a lot of orders with US factories for tangible finalized product.

Sherman-french-army-normandy.jpg

I dont know if officially any free french forces were given M3's
But these in country resistance guys managed to scrounge a few up in 44, and i'm kind of doubting they robbed springfield or ithaca armory, so the idea is perfectly plausible.
oIkOB1v.jpg

Hell, to be realistic, france is missing a lot of its Tier 0
Sure its a lot of light stuff but then so is most of the axis Tier 0 stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, dre21 said:

Grease gun ,no recoil

Wrong, it has recoil. Has quite a bit of recoil.
What it lacks is any kind of firing rate that any of the other automatics have.
It fires so slow its recoil is nearly over before it fires the next round.

Yes I have used it and I love it, I have a lot more success using that then I do the MP40 or mp34 .

Killed a few of my Squad mates during intermission thank you very much. So I'm not talking out if my arse nor am I repeating what others have said. 

As a pimarly Axis player u give me the choice of the 3 I will choose the grease gun.

Edited by dre21

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   1 member