delems

Why 1944 SMG in tier 0?

260 posts in this topic

The Army of the French 3rd Republic came to an end in 1940 -- it never used many of the weapons in this game-- including the mas-40, which was only made as a proto-type

The Rats are using a bit of logical "what if " thinking in regards to the weaponry that the French army would have used if it survived 1940 on into 1941, 1942,etc.   For the most part i don't disagree with their choices.  They could also introduce the M1 into he french army in later tiers- would make better sense than the m1 in the british army. (But i understand they want to give the british a semi and that is about the best they can do)

But the grease gun and STEN did not exist in 1940, so they may want to rethink that.   Maybe use a a limited thompson and mas smg instead. ( I do like the grease gun's slow rate of fire though- it has its advantages)

Also, i did mean mg-34- it was meant as a bit of a joke.

With regards to the mg-34-- it should not be able to fire on the move- it just unbalances the game too much.  (Same for all LMGs, except the BAR, which is not really an LMG anyway)

The Rats need to make decisions that balance realism with game balance.  Sometimes you have to compromise a bit.

 

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49 minutes ago, blakeh said:

 They could also introduce the M1 into he french army in later tiers- would make better sense than the m1 in the british army.

True, but that we can keep some French item is good, and in a way the M1 does make sense for the british.
It's the only semi auto that they actually did use in any number, 2 of the commando units, 3rd commando being one of them, did draw M1 garands.
If i recall correctly they even drew US uniforms for at least a certain operation.
And the Brits did have a little pile of them back home, with an open offer from the US to provide more.
The powers that be simply declined to follow up on it for various reasons.

I am pretty sure de Gaulles guys were equipped with M1's when they landed at Normandy, but i like being able to have the MAS40.
At least we can do it since some did get built in march before everything went to hell and we have a real thing to work with.

Wouldn't mind seeing a Bertier M1916 either, maybe for the engies or mortar or something.
 

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It is simply wrong to have the grease gun and sten in tier 0.

There must be some other weapon they can model?  Just do it.

 

Axis can't even get a 1939 light AA gun, the Flak 38, (we have 1934...), but allies can go years into the future for a SMG?

So wrong on so many levels.

 

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3 minutes ago, delems said:

 wrong on so many levels.

 

whats wrong is the little axis pak killing Chars

don't know who thought that one up at CRS but someone needs to get a clue

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57 minutes ago, delems said:

It is simply wrong to have the grease gun and sten in tier 0.

There must be some other weapon they can model?  Just do it.

 

Axis can't even get a 1939 light AA gun, the Flak 38, (we have 1934...), but allies can go years into the future for a SMG?

So wrong on so many levels.

 

Really?? Your going to complain about the few grease guns and stens in the inventory when you guys run around like Rambo firing LMGs from the hip. Please spare me your outrage.

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2 hours ago, delems said:

It is simply wrong to have the grease gun and sten in tier 0.

There must be some other weapon they can model?  Just do it.

It was already said they would be leaving.
For french in T0? no nothing else to model really, the MAS is what they used.
It will be fine once its fixed a little.

2 hours ago, bus0 said:

whats wrong is the little axis pak killing Chars

don't know who thought that one up at CRS but someone needs to get a clue

watch your flank and dont let them roll up into your engine air intake grate and blow spall all through it.
and even if you let them, its kind of hard to get much more than a mobility kill, have to get lucky and get the gastank.

And keep your visors closed. (And some people need to check their keymaps, its amazing how many b1s, s35's and R35's suddenly spontaneously open their rear turret hatch in the middle of a fire fight)
Aside from that you are pretty impervious to them penetrating you, as in sit there and laugh at them in area chat while they shoot you at 1m impervious.

But here is a fun fact, when they get their PzGr40, they will poke holes in 64mm of your skin at 100m, thats enough to really hurt.

2 hours ago, zbus said:

run around like Rambo firing LMGs from the hip

er, so does the BREN and the FN29 actually

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10 hours ago, bus0 said:

whats wrong is the little axis pak killing Chars

don't know who thought that one up at CRS but someone needs to get a clue

same can be said about the panny, the KE audit should fix both. no point in arguing about them till then...

 

9 hours ago, zbus said:

Really?? Your going to complain about the few grease guns and stens in the inventory when you guys run around like Rambo firing LMGs from the hip. Please spare me your outrage.

can you be more specific about the MG34 problem

  • is the overwhelmingly powerful rifle round too much for a single man to handle?
  • should a 20lb weapon force a man to his knees while moving?
  • is firing from the hip a impossible feat?

 

there's still time to fix it, but we need to give a accurate description of the problem.

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12 hours ago, merlin51 said:

watch your flank and dont let them roll up into your engine air intake grate and blow spall all through it.

 

little pak should only dent the Char, shouldn't penetrate anything...

only thing that could hurt it was the 88 or 4D up very close.

The Char is supposed to be a monster, slow yes but a [censored] to kill, which is presently NOT!

CRS has been tweekin stuff for awhile now, strange tweekin stuff.

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It's silly how inaccurate the LMG 34 (mg 34) is it was a very accurate gun in real life and it allowed for semi auto fire, back in 2005 the MG 34 was much more accurate and historical correct now even if you single fire the rounds seem to try to not hit where they are aiming (300-500m)

The Axis MG 34 has been nerfed 2 times since 2005 if I remember correctly both allies SMG are significant more accurated than the MP 34 or the MP 40, I only recently learn how to properly used the MP 40 that is by shooting like it semi auto, never hold the mouse button.

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Hey CRS. You can change the Grease Gun after you fix everything that's been in the game longer... first. 

1. Fix the German LMG so it takes 20 seconds to reload and can't be done unless prone. It was a 2 hand process. Exactly HOW are they doing it while standing and holding the gun... AND jogging ffs? 

2. Fix the German Grenadier so they don't live when they fire at their feet.

3. Fix the Tiger so the Turret speed is correct. Oh, ah there should be about 1/1000th the number of them compared to Shermans.

4. Fix the Allied LMG's so they can be fired from the shoulder. 

5. Fix the Souma so you can hear something, ANYTHING from inside one of those things.

6. Fix the optics on the M-10 Tank.

I could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on ...... 

Edited by lipton
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11 hours ago, bus0 said:

little pak should only dent the Char, shouldn't penetrate anything

It also should not be allowed to be within 20m of your grill, which i am pretty sure never happened in real life.
It is also super super hard, even if you get to roll up on the grill, to do much.

I'll be happy to sit on the training server some time and let you try?

If we just pull historic stats, which does not state how or what kind of kill, i would say it happens so little that i don't know why we are even thinking about it?
This includes every person who left a hatch open as well as when taking off one track gave a kill

286,519 20,422 14.03
12 hours ago, bus0 said:

The Char is supposed to be a monster

It is

9 hours ago, pbveteran said:

It's silly how inaccurate the LMG 34

? Inaccurate when ?
When you are hip firing it? If that's the case i'd have to say too bad, i don't think anyone has or expects much accuracy when hip firing.

If you mean when deployed? I must ask what have you smoked?
It works great deployed, in a way perhaps too great if you are going for suppression and bush spraying where some dispersion would be really really nice.

9 hours ago, pbveteran said:

The Axis MG 34 has been nerfed 2 times since 2005 if I remember correctly both allies SMG are significant more accurated than the MP 34 or the MP 40

Ok, which is it? MG34 or MP34? or MP40?
What exactly is nerfed here?
Can you not hit the guy in the window at 700m with the MG34?  (because if you are even trying with the mp40 or mp34 you need slapped, really really hard)
Are you dialing the sight for 700m? because if not, no you won't hit him, not even with the sniper rifle for that matter. default range is 200m you have to change it.

As far as the smg's, go in offline mode and try them all on the rifle range targets, then come yell about them instead of saying "I think" and you will find
Most are not "Correct" per se as the original design was let's put in the physics data and let the player compensate with his mouse.
Which is great in theory, except the physics overpowers the mouse and some guns you literally run out of mousepad trying to compensate.
Mouse does not replicate what human body can do from muscle memory and learning very well.

The MP40 suffers from too much lateral run out in the recoil, but that is about it really, it's very flat very little rise.
I do not know why the lateral runout, it was originally very very broken, completely unplayable, that got fixed and i don't think it got much looked at ever again.
You can compensate the lateral run out, but it's admittedly tedious, though it is probably the easiest one to keep all rounds in the kill zone at 20m and 50m when just mashing the trigger. It burst fires very well because the recoil does not kick in all at once

The MP34 pulls up and right and does it fast, it's runout is checked more so than the mp40, but its pull is hard, it is very difficult to pull it back to target as if it is firing a much heavier cartridge, burst fire is not so great because the recoil effect kicks in all at once, Aim a little low to work around that.
It needs a check i think of exactly how much KE it's generating for recoil because i think it is too much for a heavy wood stocked 9mm smg
It does do really nice in single fire though, i would rank it number 1 in the ability to single fire and actually hit something

The M1928's rise is much better than how it initially was, it still pulls up but it's kind of supposed to, and the upper limit was much reigned in.
It is not terribly accurate, and i don't think that it should be much, especially on full auto, you can keep it on target at 20m, it covers the whole target area, which may not be a bad thing if the target is running. (I am considering the dark circle the target, not the white areas)
In literal accuracy, it does not compete with the mp40 on full auto, if you did nothing but check the lateral runout on the mp40 it would be even tighter.
The Thompsons worst sin currently is the combination of sight picture and opaque flash makes it so you simply can not aim very well.

The Sten is pretty good as far as the recoil goes, its shot grouping on full auto at 20m is pretty much the span of the target area, but you don't have to fight to keep the rounds in it
at 50m don't mash full auto and hope to do anything wonderful in shot grouping, but why would you? it is a light smg after all.

The mas38 is the [censored] stepchild of recoil animations and physics, it is better than the mas38 of 2001 - 2003 which used to literally aim at the sky when you pulled the trigger, but it is still a difficult smg to make sense of. For one the recoil animation appears to have little resemblance to what is going on. As soon as you pull the trigger, the barrel for 2 inches into the air, and it stays there no matter what you do with the mouse while having some kind of seizure. Visually you would expect all the bullets to be over the target, but when you check the target you find your rounds walking up from lower right to center. And that is by starting out with the thing sighted dead center.
It can put rounds in the center, the problem is you have little to no concept of exactly how to go about doing so (this is why you see all french guys spawning M3's)
Of all the smg's i would arguably says this is the most unworkable one simply because you cant actually tell what you are doing, it's almost like shooting while being tazer'd
For a tiny little 7mm pistol cartridged smg with an angled recoil mechanism, it should probably be nothing like this.
It should be a good smg, personally i think people should want to choose it over the M3 given a choice, but until Scotsman can address it, it's really bad.

The m3 is not the most accurate thing on the planet, no matter what some people like to say.
You will not snipe some guy out at 200m with it, best you could do is aim over his head and spray, and pray a lot.
You may want to pray when addressing 50 and 100m targets, especially if they are moving at all.
It has a lot of dispersion, which it should, even at 20m. It does have recoil, it's saving grace there is it's rate of fire is so slow that much of the recoil has played out
before the next round has fired.
It wont win any accuracy contests, but it never did in real life. It has a lot of drop over range, but its firing .45acp out of a tiny cheap barrel, so nothing wrong there.
I dont see any glaring issues with the way it is currently modeled in game, and nothing that means jack as far as gameplay etc goes.
It has some how earned a fantasy reputation as a super accurate full auto sniper weapon, for which i cant explain because it isn't what it is claimed to be.
It's modeled very well, probably the closest to correct if we look at all aspects.

mp40 i still vote for best shot grouping accuracy, even with its lateral runout issue, i've long since learned to work with that.
(I've not yet master using the force to see through the muzzle flash, neither the light nor dark side worked)
When Scotsman has that addressed it will be even better.

For most fatal smg, i'd vote the thompson even aside from not being able to see a damned thing.
Between its decent rate of fire and the KE of its slow but heavy .45 people dont usually get up and run off when you've tagged them with it.

The mp34 still gets my vote for cool factor
Its old, pre war, its nice heavy solid wood, and has a nice open sight and just looks cool.
And it works pretty nifty sneaking around and single shotting guys, needs an audit on the recoil though bursting it feels like 90mm not 9mm

 

3 hours ago, lipton said:

Fix the German LMG so it takes 20 seconds to reload and can't be done unless prone. It was a 2 hand process. Exactly HOW are they doing it while standing and holding the gun

That isnt fixing, that is purposely nerfing it, it does not take 20 seconds to reload an MG34, not using belts, not using 50 round drum, not using 75 round drum, Not even when changing the barrel.
And i dont need to lay down to load the 50 round drum, its very simple.
Hit the release, and if i dont care about saving the drum let it hit the ground.
Take new drum, shove front of it in the locator and click it in.
That's all with my left hand.

Pull tab through receiver till 1st round bottoms out and pull charging handle.
Oooh, used my right hand, sneaky eh?

I dont actually need to be opening the receiver cover at all unless it has jammed or ive got a belt with the leader ripped off.
Total time to add to current reload animation, approximately 1 second.

Why would you ask such a stupid thing, and then yell when an axis player asks for just as stupid of a thing?

3 hours ago, lipton said:

AND jogging ffs?

And BREN, and FN29, and M1928 and M3 and M1 and Enfield, get the picture?
 

3 hours ago, lipton said:

Fix the German Grenadier so they don't live when they fire at their feet.

You already got a direct answer on that.
Its already fixed, wait for the patch.

3 hours ago, lipton said:

Fix the Tiger so the Turret speed is correct. Oh, ah there should be about 1/1000th the number of them compared to Shermans.

Since the game can not tie any of the turret movement to the engines being running or not let alone how fast it can go, WHAT SPEED do you dictate is correct for the tiger?
6 minutes manual rotation by the gunners crank?

Now if you want to go down that patch, shall i list the allied tanks that can NOT operate their turrets for very long without the engine running
because the generator is driven off the ENGINE and the turret motors are either electric or electric pumped hydraulic and kill vehicle's battery.
Unless you have an onboard stand alone generator, hmm only 1 tank has that.

And you should not have an sherman 76's at all, they should be tier 4 with the tiger II and the Panther
You ok with that too? By the way its more like 1/35th there were more than 49 Tiger I's on the planet.

4 hours ago, lipton said:

Fix the Allied LMG's so they can be fired from the shoulder.

You got a direct answer on that already too
The BREN the FN29 AND the MG34 will ALL THREE get their proper ability to fire from the shoulder.
It probably won't be the greatest thing ever, because they are all clumsy like that and you'll probably be mad.

Are you having memory issues?

4 hours ago, lipton said:

Fix the Souma so you can hear something, ANYTHING from inside one of those things.

Huh?  you can hear, i can hear anyways, bout as well as i'd expect inside a blob of cast iron?
You really can't hear terribly well inside a heavy closed turret with a non opening cupola.
Try the rear hatch, it helps, just remember to close it.
And remember to pull throttle all the way off, positive throttle in any vehicle mutes audio even with engine off.

 

4 hours ago, lipton said:

Fix the optics on the M-10 Tank.

They did fix them already.
We have the correct optics on it now?

 

4 hours ago, lipton said:

I could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on ......

I think you just did :( 

 

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apart from posting on these here forums, when was the last time you actually killed the Char in Axis armor Merlin?

 

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14 hours ago, merlin51 said:

 

That isnt fixing, that is purposely nerfing it, it does not take 20 seconds to reload an MG34, not using belts, not using 50 round drum, not using 75 round drum, Not even when changing the barrel.
And i dont need to lay down to load the 50 round drum, its very simple.
Hit the release, and if i dont care about saving the drum let it hit the ground.
Take new drum, shove front of it in the locator and click it in.
That's all with my left hand.

Pull tab through receiver till 1st round bottoms out and pull charging handle.
Oooh, used my right hand, sneaky eh?

I dont actually need to be opening the receiver cover at all unless it has jammed or ive got a belt with the leader ripped off.
Total time to add to current reload animation, approximately 1 second.

Why would you ask such a stupid thing, and then yell when an axis player asks for just as stupid of a thing?

 

So you've actually done this? Really? I don't think so. I haven't, but I've stood right next to a man while he did. He walked us through the process of reloading a MG34 drum.  With him describing the process, it took him about 5 minutes lol. 

There is NO WAY you are going to load it while standing. There is NO WAY you are going to load it with one hand (unless you are laying down and have the gun deployed and THEN it would take you longer than 20 seconds).

I'm sure they could do it quicker than 20 seconds after a ton of practice and with the gun set in place so it didn't move.  But come one... "click it in". lol. Do you know how heavy that gun is?   You're funny. But you do like to act like the expert and make everyone look "stupid". 

My comment was simply a way of showing that there are a ton of things that have been at issue with this game for many many years and have yet to be fixed. But we're going to whine about what year the the Grease Gun should be introduced.  Fix the LONG over-due stuff first. 

But if you really want my opinion on Infantry Weapon Tier Progression, then please visit my thread here:

 

Edited by lipton

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Ok. Just watched a video of a guy loading a drum. He didn't have to unload an empty drum first, but he was able to do it quickly in about  15-17 seconds. And it took 2 hands while deployed. lol 

So... add having to remove an empty drum and you're looking at about 20 seconds?    WHILE DEPLOYED using 2 hands. 

That's 10 minutes of my work day wasted, proving  the obvious. 

 

Edited by lipton
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2 hours ago, lipton said:

Ok. Just watched a video of a guy loading a drum. He didn't have to unload an empty drum first, but he was able to do it quickly in about  15-17 seconds. And it took 2 hands while deployed. lol 

So... add having to remove an empty drum and you're looking at about 20 seconds?    WHILE DEPLOYED using 2 hands. 

That's 10 minutes of my work day wasted, proving  the obvious. 

Good video in that it shows you how to do it, he is also going very slow, but id expect him to, he is trying to demonstrate.

To unload empty drum, simply let it fall on the ground.
I know you can't see it in the vid but there is a big release lever right on the backside of the drum.
Literally hit it and let the drum fall.

Understand im not advocating dropping them, simply that all our units ingame are simply discarding their empty mags
They also are materializing new mags in their hands from thin air.
Now if you want to include that for all things, i'm down with it :) 


Some good things in the video though, his belt is probably a section from a 100 or 250 round belt, the leader is missing
It is good though because it shows that you can still work with it if you have to just takes a bit more fiddling.
And in the field, you'd be taking what ammo you could get.

Normally though you would not have to open the receiver, you'd just yank the leader through till the 1st round seats
This below vid  is an plain belt in the vid but the drum is only a little different. from 2 seconds to 9 seconds in the vid, ready to fire.
Even if you want to open it, you basily slap the drum on, the leader would be lying across the receiver, you'd slap the cover down and yank the leader.
Some people prefer that way because its easier for them, neither is wrong really.

Would have been nice if he took a little more time and showed the simple mount system for the drum etc.

I'll try to find a re-enactment video, i may have to ask someone for one

Personally i would swap the MG34 to belts for a couple reasons.
One of which is that the availability of the drums decreased, a lot, as we move past 1940.
They stopped issuing the 75 round top mount drum to infantry units sometime in early 1941, and availability of the 50 round drums, which are in reality just little belt boxes, decreased with material and manufacturing issues, not to mention just adds to battlefield complexity. Drums get dented or damaged and they wont feed properly or they wont clip on the gun, or the cover jams and you cant get it open etc.

Second is that belts more easily support crewed suppressive position like an MG nest with a couple riflemen supporting and stocking you with 100 or 250 round belts.
No need to do any remodeling. And like any other stocked ammo, have the long belts vanish if you move away from them?

The belts don't stop you from assuming a forward moving assault role.
Might be more work for the art team to animate well though? could just have the belt hang straight down i suppose.

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to OP @delems: the thought process behind it is "all army get 2 SMG"

 

guys... there's no balance, compensating, flavor, and it has absolutly nothing to do with the MG34..

 

all army get 2 SMG

it's as simple as that sentence, there's nothing else to it.

 

to allied trolls:

you guys already got the MP34 bug thread deleted, get over your victim complex and think of ways to make the game awesome. it's your damn fault the game got progressively worse.

you stopped the gun improvements at the grease gun. we could have better LMG's, rifles, and explosives if you just stop.

 

the upcoming small arms audit only had me and hatch backing it, while you all want to make the game suck.

Edited by major0noob

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1 hour ago, major0noob said:

you stopped the gun improvements at the grease gun. we could have better LMG's, rifles, and explosives if you just stop.

Trust me, no screaming forum persons are going to stop improvements.
They got a whole bunch of them in the works for you now, and now that the steam integration monster is hopefully nearly conquered
they can rock and roll on the other stuff again.

you still cant see this can you?

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1 hour ago, major0noob said:

to allied trolls:

you guys already got the MP34 bug thread deleted, get over your victim complex and think of ways to make the game awesome. it's your damn fault the game got progressively worse.

you stopped the gun improvements at the grease gun. we could have better LMG's, rifles, and explosives if you just stop.

 

the upcoming small arms audit only had me and hatch backing it, while you all want to make the game suck.

HDHuT.BlogSpot.com.jpg

 

That's awesome!  I am SO gunna quote this every chance I get. Majornoob is now claiming the Allies have ruined the game.  :lol::popcorn:

Oh!  And I WISH I had kept count of how many times he has whined about his precious MP34 thread getting deleted and blamed that on the Allies too.  But I'm sure he'll keep whining. So, I'll start now. This is 1

 

How do I "star" a thread to keep track of it for later?   lol 

Edited by lipton

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Well, it is how funny how the grease gun got fixed in days after people complained... mp34 not so much.

I'm not that much of a gun history buff, but wasn't the grease gun inaccurate irl, maybe I'm wrong here.

All I know, is every map the grease gun has a near 1.0 KD while the mp34 has a 0.75 KD; each with 1000s of sorties.  That is significantly better.

So it is no anomaly, was the grease gun really that good?  (note, forgetting that it didn't even exist in 1940....)

 

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that wasn't directed at you specifically lipton... i'd send a PM if it were

you weren't the only allied troll, the axis were generally ok with fixing the grease gun, while the allied community were immature and offensive enough to get a bug report permanently deleted for being such a disgrace to the games community. shameless [censored] s

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30 minutes ago, delems said:

Well, it is how funny how the grease gun got fixed in days after people complained... mp34 not so much.

I'm not that much of a gun history buff, but wasn't the grease gun inaccurate irl, maybe I'm wrong here.

All I know, is every map the grease gun has a near 1.0 KD while the mp34 has a 0.75 KD; each with 1000s of sorties.  That is significantly better.

So it is no anomaly, was the grease gun really that good?  (note, forgetting that it didn't even exist in 1940....)

 

Historically the Grease gun fired a .45 ( 30 rnd mag) round with an effective fire range of about 100 yards, with it's sight system. It fired 450 rpm. The .45 round has more stopping power, but also kicked more. However, the kick isn't that severe. Grease gun entered service in 1943. 

The Mp34 fired a 9x19 Luger round (20 or 30 rnd mag) and had an effective range of about 150-220 yards (but lets be real and also call it 100 yards.) It fired 600 rpm. So if fired faster, had less of a kick, but also had less stopping power. Was in wide service in 1938 - but was phased out around 1940 with the creating of the mp40. 

I would personally say, an effective range for both guns would be 100 yards. Grease gun has better damage, but fires slower. This allows firing in shorter bursts, which gives it greater accuracy. The MP34, does less damage, but fires faster. This does not allow for shorter bursts, which would make it less accurate at range. 

However, it should also be noted, both can fire in semi-automatic as well. This i believe would level the playing field as far as range and accuracy - but the Grease gun would still do more damage.  

Edited by bmw2

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59 minutes ago, major0noob said:

you weren't the only allied troll, the axis were generally ok with fixing the grease gun, while the allied community were immature and offensive enough to get a bug report permanently deleted for being such a disgrace to the games community. shameless [censored] s

+ 50. 

Damn, I wish I'd kept count all along. I'd be up to 50 by now.

edit: Let's call it 2 + 50. 

Edited by lipton

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1 hour ago, delems said:

I'm not that much of a gun history buff, but wasn't the grease gun inaccurate irl, maybe I'm wrong here.

All I know, is every map the grease gun has a near 1.0 KD while the mp34 has a 0.75 KD; each with 1000s of sorties.  That is significantly better.

So it is no anomaly, was the grease gun really that good?  (note, forgetting that it didn't even exist in 1940....)

Well, i suppose it depends on what you compare it against.
One might say it has slight more accuracy than an M1911 pistol, but it lacks the accuracy of the M1 thompson.
It may not matter terribly because the .45 cartridge has a short effective range anyways.
If you compare it to shot grouping on the bench with an M1 thompson with cuts compensator, the M3 won't look so good.
But like i said, that probably does not mean a hell of a lot beyond the target paper, because the round has a short effective range and it drops quickly after it.

The thompson was heavy and expensive and did not really fair well being dropped in mud.

The M3 took what the axis started with the mp40, and the British continued with the Sten, which was to make a light cheap reliable smg for close range combat that required little maintenance.
It is good at that

Out to 30 or 50 meters, its accurate enough i guess. Its super slow ROF make it easy to fire off single shots, also gives you a window of vision between opaque muzzle flashes
It carries a lot more stopping power per round inside its effective range than the mp40 or mp34 does, so you have a lot more leeway.
Where that badly placed shot with the 9mm might just bust the guy up bad but not kill him, the .45 is fatal.
Its kind of akin to one guy throwing a marble and the other guy throws back a hammer.

The mp34, right now can not really be fairly compared until the audits come out, because to use it well you have to master the art of single fire
because it has issues with its recoil physics. They might not mean much toe to toe inside a CP, but they do anyplace else where you have some distance.
And even inside a CP, missing lots with a much smaller round can still matter.
Single fire with a 9mm smg at ranged targets tends to get you lots of non fatal hits, with angry EI limping around seeking revenge.
You have to hit the hammer guy with a lot more marbles than he hits you with hammers to take him down, and it does not help when you can't get your marbles on target.

So you will have to revisit some of that after the audits go in.
Corrected, if i had to guess, i'd say the mp34 should shoot a tighter group than the mp40, its a more expensive gun with more precision machining and its heavier.
And it will definitely have a better group than the M3, which will help since the M3 will always have more per bullet killing potential.

Post audit, i don't foresee the M3 changing much aside from its eventual return to T3
The mp34 i foresee changing much so its as fun to shoot as it is cool
The mp40 i don't foresee changing a lot outside of its lateral sway, thats its only real issue
The mas38 i pray becomes usable or the m3 will never go home.
Sten is good already, dont see it doing much besides moving to its home tier eventually
Thompsons are good already, nothing to really change there, its biggest issue pertains to the muzzle flash
Muzzle flash is hopefully addressed for all

Someone will undoubtedly say im wrong

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