delems

Why 1944 SMG in tier 0?

240 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, stankyus said:

Answer your own question... need I say the 88 which can kill all allied tanks from range in all tiers.. why do they need more ATGs?  All you need to do is tow them up.  OH they die quickly?  Well so do depot atgs because they are usually much closer to EI than the long ranged ones. I mean we can do point, counter point until the cows come home but how does that solve anything? 

IN all this discussion all I hear is get rid, move out, allies do not need, anything allied..   THIS cannot and will not work in totality that benefits only one side. There is no concession being offered up by the Axis fan boi's here.. Where in this thread have the allies said to the Axis, get rid of, move out or the Axis do not need without offering up a concession? 

Another point on this. If you go back and look at these forums you'll notice my entire argument for the pak 38 in tier 0 is to increase the supply of Matildas available to the Allies. I am no longer bothering with that argument at all.  Strictly year based introduction of equipment is the way to go. 

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5 minutes ago, stankyus said:

YOU are imputing CRSs conduct of its own rule set on me and calling me hard lined? Transference anyone?

I have NEVER stated that the game should be hard lined about date of entrance ever - I have questioned need, balance, solution. and motive.

If I was hard lined about it, you would have been hearing me clamoring on about the German grenadier becoming a RDP item... I have not.

I have also said that I really don't care if the Grease gun becomes a RDP item however no smg in the game disrupts balance.

You sure you want to keep saying this about me?  You willing to RDP the Axis grenadier?

 

 

Absolutely. Tiger in tier two as well. Let's do thing by year groups. 

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And once we introduce correct production dates for everything, then lets introduce correct production NUMBERS for everything. Yup. 

This game's gunna be awesome..... NOT!!! 

Edited by lipton
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1 minute ago, delems said:

The 88 is a terrible gun as designed, it can't spawn from depots, is a huge target, requires 2 players to even use and is slow as can be.

The 88 is a great gun. :( Don't be mean to her.

No, it can not spawn from depots and though that might prove terribly fatal for it, i am not opposed to trying it.
Just afraid that in a lot of cases it might be forcing it to its death.
They do fit though, i have spawned one out of a CP before, it fits just fine, it just takes a fatally long time to even push it clear of the door, even the bofors is faster.

It actually requires more than 2 people to use properly and well, it is very much, and always has been a poly crew weapon system
To use right requires a dedicated HT, should include at least 2 AA guns, and infantry, preferably with an engineer now days.
And those people need to be dedicated to the mission, which is defending the 88's position.
It also really requires preplanning before just yanking it out, you really most times can't just decide a location for it on the fly.

Back when we had guys like the 31st WC etc as big active squads, the 88 was liquid murder.
They would run it like a big polycrewed system and it was effective.
It requires that to be effective and competitive though.

That said it does not compete in the same solo bush hopping game that any other ATG, axis or allied can play.
I can wreck several panzers with an MLE37 and disappear into the bushes and woods, i was never there, and i require no one but myself to do it, the 88 can not and never will.

This part is true and has to be very very much considered when you are looking at the 88 as far as balance goes.
In T0 the axis have only 1 ATG that can play at the same game as the 2pdr and the SA MLE 34 and SA MLE 37, that is the PAK36
But it is not terribly competitive, only with PzGr40 does it stand on the same footing with any of the ATG's except the SA MLE 34, which may actually out penetrate the PAK30.

You could give them the PAK38, since it did exist in 1940 but just was not brought into france
Or if it is modeled and useable, you could give the PAK38(T) and should still be within the opening tier doctrine of did you bring it to france that we started the game with
and is a good contemporary for the SA MLE 1937 and 2PDR.
Or you could give the PAK38 on a temp basis as a stand in until the PAK38(t) is ready.

Or you would have to give the PAK36 a competitive and ahistorical amount of PzGr40, which opens another can of worms i'm afraid, and causes problems later
when we want to do tungsten ammo properly 
 

Allied guns will eventually come that you will have to play and use much like the 88, some will be worse to move.
Keep that in mind

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1 hour ago, delems said:

*** The rule set for T0 entrance (which might or might not be valid anymore - Ill get to that) simply means that the Pak38 does not qualify for T0. Not my rule set - CRS's rule set for T0 equipment. They had to have been in action during the BoF. 

I see, and just how many grease guns were used by french in 1940?  Or Garands, by brits in 1941?  Know what hypocrite means?

 

You are so full of delusion it is almost not even worth chatting with you anymore.  Maybe go look at 88 starts (less than 1.0 KD) maybe go look at ATG stats....

B 1.1, F 0.92, G 0.65; with 44% more kills for allies.

The 88 is a terrible gun as designed, it can't spawn from depots, is a huge target, requires 2 players to even use and is slow as can be.

I bet I don't have 10 combat sorties with an 88 in some 8 years of playing this game, it is that bad.


As for never getting to use late tier stuff, well, axis doesn't either - what's the beef?  All the more reason for development to focus more on filling out tier 0, 1 and 2 items imo.

 

The grease gun in no way shape or form belongs in game prior to 1943.

Transference again anyone..  You talk as if this was my rule set.  I'm the only one being consistent here.

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8 hours ago, Mosizlak said:

This train wreck of a thread surfaces every few months with the same results.  

Does having this SMG time warped into 1940 make a difference in game balance ? Not a bit.  

Does it make the game a bit more fun for Allied players who hate the old french SMG? I think so, because when I play Allied I freakin hate the MAS SMG. 

 

Overall I agree.  But if possible I'd like to see it replaced with something not time warped.  

Edited by Capco

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9 hours ago, stankyus said:

If T-3 just adds more M10s and Tigers WHY HAVE T3 at all?

who said T3 was adding more tigers, or more M10's for that matter?
PZIV H and PZIII M come to mind, with HE audit in place the StuH could be fun, Jagdpanzer IV etc.
Churchill MK IV-75, A Valentine, a Sexton could be a lot of fun after the HE audit, M18 hellcat (you think the stuart is fast?) , T48 HTTD.
Just things that come to mind.

 

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1 hour ago, saronin said:

Another point on this. If you go back and look at these forums you'll notice my entire argument for the pak 38 in tier 0 is to increase the supply of Matildas available to the Allies. I am no longer bothering with that argument at all.  Strictly year based introduction of equipment is the way to go. 

Which the 47mm will be able to handle also - Its being modelled it fits the rule set and keeps us from going down a slippery slope to where the next thing the Axis will want is the PZH to fight the Matty because ... the tanking game still sucks or reduce the Matty back down to 2.. but please keep this in context - its not just the Matty, its the Allied tank set that will be effected.  Second point, WHAT makes you believe that the Matties numbers will be increased if the whole reason for adding the pak38 is to fight the Matties? Would that not be a wash and TBH, my trust level about game balance is about <--> this big with the S76s and M10 parity.  No I do not believe for one second that that CRS would raise the Matilda numbers at all... why do it?

 

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1 hour ago, stankyus said:

You willing to RDP the Axis grenadier?

I am. change the axis T0 grenadier to the M1917, that would be correct for the tier.
He can RDP the GewSprGr 30 HE Grenade in T2

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15 minutes ago, stankyus said:

Which the 47mm will be able to handle also - Its being modelled it fits the rule set and keeps us from going down a slippery slope to where the next thing the Axis will want is the PZH to fight the Matty because ... the tanking game still sucks or reduce the Matty back down to 2.. but please keep this in context - its not just the Matty, its the Allied tank set that will be effected.  Second point, WHAT makes you believe that the Matties numbers will be increased if the whole reason for adding the pak38 is to fight the Matties? Would that not be a wash and TBH, my trust level about game balance is about <--> this big with the S76s and M10 parity.  No I do not believe for one second that that CRS would raise the Matilda numbers at all... why do it?

 

Hey I'm good with keeping the status quo then.  Run around with virtually no Matties on the map.  Fine with me.

 

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58 minutes ago, lipton said:

Fotolia_49864694_Subscription_Monthly_M_

 

And once we introduce correct production dates for everything, then lets introduce correct production NUMBERS for everything. Yup. 

This game's gunna be awesome..... NOT!!! 

Did you guys win in North Africa?  Did I miss that.  Oh wait... we actually don't fight a good portion of WWII so raw materials and production basically a non factor in the game.

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51 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

who said T3 was adding more tigers, or more M10's for that matter?
PZIV H and PZIII M come to mind, with HE audit in place the StuH could be fun, Jagdpanzer IV etc.
Churchill MK IV-75, A Valentine, a Sexton could be a lot of fun after the HE audit, M18 hellcat (you think the stuart is fast?) , T48 HTTD.
Just things that come to mind.

 

The Valintine - I guess it really depends on which variant - I know some variants lacked a coax mg when the got upgunned and some later versions got 6pdrs and 75mm. Not sure if they ever put the coax back in. IF they didn't, its basically a Crusader 3 with about 20mm more armor and slower - possibly without a coax.

Just coming to mind - P4H - bigger gun.. no problem expecially in light of its skirts and the new HEAT.

CH4 - what does it offer over the Mk3 with a 6pdr? A turret counterweight and a 75mm gun otherwise it is a CH3.

StuH with a 105 vrs the Sexton  with the 25pdr both have great artillery no doubt but the StuH I would not think it to be a good SPG compatriot.. mb the Wespe

Pz3M - Chafee and Cromwell

Hellcat - ??? Hetzer?

T48 - Sdkf 233

I know those where off the cuff..

EDIT: Jagdpanzer mk4 - No. it had a prototype only produced in December of 43 with the pak39 L48 allegedly, there is no concrete evidence they had any in 43.. with the only production numbers that stemmed from late 44 of the early variant which overlapped its upgraded version of the L/70.

42 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

I am. change the axis T0 grenadier to the M1917, that would be correct for the tier.
He can RDP the GewSprGr 30 HE Grenade in T2

Ok and replacing the French Grease gun with?

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9 minutes ago, saronin said:

Did you guys win in North Africa?  Did I miss that.  Oh wait... we actually don't fight a good portion of WWII so raw materials and production basically a non factor in the game.

Even when there is a NA, and a mechanism is in place to to facilitate its activation etc, it wont matter if the allies win it.
You would still need in place a mechanism to allow effect of raw materials etc.
And even with that working, you would only have an artificial maximum effect you would allow, because it is a game.

Can't you see when he is fishing?

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28 minutes ago, saronin said:

Hey I'm good with keeping the status quo then.  Run around with virtually no Matties on the map.  Fine with me.

 

Well then please explain the logic behind having more Matties if the pak38 is there to deal with the Matty "hordes" we have now? How does that work?  Lets say they DO add matties, how many do you suggest? How do you suggest we handle the French gear?

 

EDIT: Oh lol I missed you're admission - we do run with virtually no matties on the Map already.

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So lol lets talk about the light ATGs... Where is my American M5 light ATG?  I think it needs to be a priority.. along with the M1919 and 60mm mortar.

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44 minutes ago, stankyus said:

I guess it really depends on which variant - I know some variants lacked a coax mg when the got upgunned and some later versions got 6pdrs and 75mm. Not sure if they ever put the coax back in. IF they didn't, its basically a Crusader 3 with about 20mm more armor and slower - possibly without a coax.

Do you know the use date on the XI?
X would be ok too if the date does not work for the XI
Its the MK 8 and 9 that for some reason are devoid of coax - crazy idea

X is 6pdr XI is 75mm

44 minutes ago, stankyus said:

Pz3M - Chafee and Cromwell

You're going to yell at me, but tier mismatch :( thats why i didnt list them.
Am i silly for wanting a Tetrarch in T0?

44 minutes ago, stankyus said:

Hellcat - ??? Hetzer?

M18 VS Jagdpanzer 38  that sounds fun but one is T3 the other is T4
What about the  Jagdpanzer IV?

44 minutes ago, stankyus said:

StuH with a 105 vrs the Sexton  with the 25pdr both have great artillery no doubt but the StuH I would not think it to be a good SPG compatriot.. mb the Wespe

Yea i didnt think of the wespe, i was thinking ooh StuH could be built out of the StuG G

44 minutes ago, stankyus said:

CH4 - what does it offer over the Mk3 with a 6pdr? A turret counterweight and a 75mm gun otherwise it is a CH3

eh, 75mm gun? thinking with HE could be real good for inf support?

44 minutes ago, stankyus said:

Ok and replacing the French Grease gun with?

A properly functioning MAS38 would be a good start, because it really should be a nice little SMG
The other SMG that is actually valid for BOF is the Erma EMP

Id be happy just with a MAS38 that i could shoot across the street.
7cb4af1bd94bdfbbdf3fdadc15969b82.jpg

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29 minutes ago, stankyus said:

So lol lets talk about the light ATGs... Where is my American M5 light ATG?  I think it needs to be a priority.. along with the M1919 and 60mm mortar.

I think you meant the M3?
37-mm-at-gun-fort-benning-3.jpg

We have the M5 already 76.2mm, the MLE34 is standing in for the M3 currently.
Unless you can steal the turret off a stuart, its kind of an M3.
Kind of amusing if you think about it, in RL WWII the US was loaning everything and the kitchensink to france, in WWII Online, the french are loaning the US troops ATG's :) 

The M1919 is in development  https://www.wwiionline.com/community-news#dev-roadmap

 

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10 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

I think you meant the M3?
37-mm-at-gun-fort-benning-3.jpg

We have the M5 already 76.2mm, the MLE34 is standing in for the M3 currently.
Unless you can steal the turret off a stuart, its kind of an M3.
Kind of amusing if you think about it, in RL WWII the US was loaning everything and the kitchensink to france, in WWII Online, the french are loaning the US troops ATG's :) 

The M1919 is in development  https://www.wwiionline.com/community-news#dev-roadmap

 

 

18 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

Do you know the use date on the XI?
X would be ok too if the date does not work for the XI
Its the MK 8 and 9 that for some reason are devoid of coax - crazy idea

X is 6pdr XI is 75mm

You're going to yell at me, but tier mismatch :( thats why i didnt list them.
Am i silly for wanting a Tetrarch in T0?

M18 VS Jagdpanzer 38  that sounds fun but one is T3 the other is T4
What about the  Jagdpanzer IV?

Yea i didnt think of the wespe, i was thinking ooh StuH could be built out of the StuG G

eh, 75mm gun? thinking with HE could be real good for inf support?

A properly functioning MAS38 would be a good start, because it really should be a nice little SMG
The other SMG that is actually valid for BOF is the Erma EMP
7cb4af1bd94bdfbbdf3fdadc15969b82.jpg

Er.. I think the Xi is a 43 variant, I know the X is. The XI would work if its actually 43.

Hetzer yup a 44 production - just looked it up.

I'm not a straight up date production guy - never will be but the Chafee, Mk3M and Cromwell have a place in upgrading the H, Stu, and Cru2 for support tanks for the medium and heavies.

LOL I forgot about the Tetrarch - that would be a fun little weiny tank but TBH - how does that fit with the Pz1? More like a Vickers mkC - kinda reverse rolls with the 2C/pz1 Vickers Mk2/Vickers Besa Two light tanks.. one with heavy MGs guns and one with MGs.

Wespe I think uses and existing chassis but more in line with the Sexton unless you suggest a Sherman 105 which is in line with the StuH. - not sure about dates tho.

Erma would work.

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10 minutes ago, stankyus said:

LOL I forgot about the Tetrarch - that would be a fun little weiny tank but TBH - how does that fit with the Pz1? More like a Vickers mkC - kinda reverse rolls with the 2C/pz1 Vickers Mk2/Vickers Besa Two light tanks.. one with heavy MGs guns and one with MGs.

Eh its a 2PDR
Brit T0 looks like a bunch of variety and yet sameness
Tetrarch, A9, A10, A13 MKI, A10 being the heaviest armored at 30mm frontal, the others maxing at about 14mm
A13 MKII which we have in game now is 30mm
All shoot the 2pdr
Speeds vary from 16 to 40mph with the Tetrarch being the fastest at 40mph
so 2pdr tinfoil and fast as hell

19 minutes ago, stankyus said:

Wespe I think uses and existing chassis but more in line with the Sexton unless you suggest a Sherman 105 which is in line with the StuH. - not sure about dates tho.

The 105's are T4 unfortunately.
But not the towed 105's  :) 

 

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1 hour ago, stankyus said:

Well then please explain the logic behind having more Matties if the pak38 is there to deal with the Matty "hordes" we have now? How does that work?  Lets say they DO add matties, how many do you suggest? How do you suggest we handle the French gear?

 

EDIT: Oh lol I missed you're admission - we do run with virtually no matties on the Map already.

It's the lack of Axis guns to deal with it that is the problem.  What everybody throws the fit about is that the French Armor in tier 0 won't be as tough.  I would like to see more Matties but you have to give the Axis a viable solution to deal with it besides the sapper.  The 88 is great on offense.  Crap on defense.

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6 minutes ago, saronin said:

the French Armor in tier 0 won't be as tough.

What?
Hell you say! :)

You gotta get that czech gun inline with me alive before you can do anything with it :P
Now one messes with mah MonstaChar!

6 minutes ago, saronin said:

The 88 is great on offense.  Crap on defense.

rear FB's used to be helpful with that.
You need a fast thinking 88 crew now, well...
You need a crew period

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23 hours ago, jwilly said:

How about if the British get short barreled towed 6 pounders in T0, long barreled towed 6 pounders and short barreled tank 6 pounders in T1...as would have happened historically if Dunkerque hadn't wiped out the 2 pounder stocks, and Dunkerque never happens in-game in T0, and since it was a contracted buy it's old-CRS-game-eligible...and go from there?

Early on, old-CRS's view on future tiers was that historical introductions after T0 wouldn't be sacrosanct, because the game was intended to be an opportunity to remake history. Game-events after May 1940 would result in modified history, and therefore maybe in modified weapon arrivals.

The above British example would be one of the most obvious and documented. French T1 tanks and HEAT RGs would be others.

A German list could be readily assembled. One would be skipping the 50mm L/42 and going straight to the L/60.

There already was planning then to have victory conditions based on measureable accomplishments and status. It was discussed at the time that assembling a history-tree based on measureable accomplishments and status would be workable. Old-CRS had a corps of historical researchers back then.

"Historical arrival" with no deviations or sneaky offsets, and equal numbers of players on each side, only works if your marketing goal is a game in which the Allies get whipped. It's an historical fact that in a majority of comparisons of ground weapons,  Axis >>> Allied if you ignore or can't reasonably model the eventually vast historical Allied advantages in force numbers and logistics.

In a how-history-is-adjusted-by-gameflow setting, though, many of the Allied historical disadvantages go away...and the Axis gets to play with their later, especially interesting weaponry sooner because the Germans don't make stupid moves like devoting a huge percentage of armor steel production to building useless large warships.

Edited by jwilly
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2 hours ago, jwilly said:

because the Germans don't make stupid moves like devoting a huge percentage of armor steel production to building useless large warships.

They also are not forced to contend with the impenetrable Fortress Factory Amerika, which would kind of make for a majorly messed up game.

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