delems

Why 1944 SMG in tier 0?

240 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, Capco said:

Overall I agree.  But if possible I'd like to see it replaced with something not time warped.  

Sure, until they can task resources for this I think most sane people can see it's not a problem. 

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7 hours ago, Mosizlak said:

Sure, until they can task resources for this I think most sane people can see it's not a problem. 

Saw Tbomber the other day ingame.  Some of the old Black Hand crew names.

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13 hours ago, merlin51 said:

I think you meant the M3?
37-mm-at-gun-fort-benning-3.jpg

We have the M5 already 76.2mm, the MLE34 is standing in for the M3 currently.
Unless you can steal the turret off a stuart, its kind of an M3.
Kind of amusing if you think about it, in RL WWII the US was loaning everything and the kitchensink to france, in WWII Online, the french are loaning the US troops ATG's :) 

The M1919 is in development  https://www.wwiionline.com/community-news#dev-roadmap

 

I was deviating from the topic a bit - The M3 is basically the same gun as the Stu.  As for the M1919 - its modelling was done - 9 months ago. I was expecting it to enter ASAP being that the Americans have been in the game for a while missing its LMG.  The Americans have not been filled out with its appropriate gear. 

ATM:

1. US did not deploy an ATR  - its should be dropped.

2. MLE38 to its M45 - which would be the correct 43 variant light AA gun deployed by the US.

3. M1919 - US currently has no LMG.

4. M2 Mortar - the US never used a 5cm class mortar

5. M3 light ATG - the only US light ATG of ww2.

6. US grenadier - don't recall seeing them in the game though I could be mistaken as I avoid all grenadiers on the allied side because they suck.

7. US Air force - currently none and I would suggest keeping the P38 and adding the P47 with bomb rack - though I guess you could do the A-36.  B-25 :)

9. Para units - coming

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15 hours ago, stankyus said:

Well then please explain the logic behind having more Matties if the pak38 is there to deal with the Matty "hordes" we have now? How does that work?  Lets say they DO add matties, how many do you suggest? How do you suggest we handle the French gear?

 

EDIT: Oh lol I missed you're admission - we do run with virtually no matties on the Map already.

Admission?  I think it's pretty common knowledge the Matty numbers are low. There is a reason for that.  The sapper tends to be the leading Matty killer due to the lack of viable Axis guns.  My whole point all along has been out a truely viable answer in the field an increase the numbers.  Tier 0 is 1940.  The pak 38 was in production and could have been fielded.  

 

 

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17 minutes ago, saronin said:

Admission?  I think it's pretty common knowledge the Matty numbers are low. There is a reason for that.  The sapper tends to be the leading Matty killer due to the lack of viable Axis guns.  My whole point all along has been out a truely viable answer in the field an increase the numbers.  Tier 0 is 1940.  The pak 38 was in production and could have been fielded.  

What about the ATGs in the past 20 campaigns is different from the first 120?  Why were low Matty numbers not a necessity for the Axis to win the majority of those 120 campaigns, but now lower numbers are needed for the most recent 20?

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16 hours ago, saronin said:

Did you guys win in North Africa?  Did I miss that.  Oh wait... we actually don't fight a good portion of WWII so raw materials and production basically a non factor in the game.

So you just want to use the part of WWII history that fits your narrative? Yep. Pretty much says it all right there. 

"Oh, but the Allies don't have the 8th Airforce to bomb Germany into the Stone Age. Oh, but the Allies don't have the Artillery to bomb Germany back into the Stone Age."

"OH>>>>  But the Allies don't have the production numbers in this game they had in the REAL WWII.  But we wan't everything good the Axis had. It's only fair!!.

YEAH, OK .  :lol:

If we're going to use the correct production dates for equipment, then we should use the correct production numbers for equipment. It's only fair. 

This is the dumbest thread ever and some don't even realize it. 

Edited by lipton

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24 minutes ago, lipton said:

So you just want to use the part of WWII history that fits your narrative? Yep. Pretty much says it all right there. 

"Oh, but the Allies don't have the 8th Airforce to bomb Germany into the Stone Age. Oh, but the Allies don't have the Artillery to bomb Germany back into the Stone Age."

"OH>>>>  But the Allies don't have the production numbers in this game they had in the REAL WWII.  But we wan't everything good the Axis had. It's only fair!!.

YEAH, OK .  :lol:

If we're going to use the correct production dates for equipment, then we should use the correct production numbers for equipment. It's only fair. 

This is the dumbest thread ever and some don't even realize it. 

Hey dufus, the game starts with the BoF. If we were to recreate exact conditions the French factories would be gone before we bumped up a tier. It would be a perpetual tier 0 route. 

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34 minutes ago, Capco said:

What about the ATGs in the past 20 campaigns is different from the first 120?  Why were low Matty numbers not a necessity for the Axis to win the majority of those 120 campaigns, but now lower numbers are needed for the most recent 20?

Bomb effectiveness, changes in foliage, multiple armor audits, changes in FRU rules (the biggest factor in the last 20 campaigns), warping of supply, and a whole host of other changes I can't think of right off hand. You act as though the game has been static. That is not the case. There have been changes and changes to the changes. 

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Why do the Rats let threads like this go on and on, the same people using the same tired arguments that get everyone no where and change nothing, if you don't like the game in it current format walk away, [censored] off go do something more proactive to your own well being rather than sit in  threads like this day in day out regurgitating the same rubbish, can't you see you are achieving nothing.

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letting off steam pretty much

from the old thread in the barracks:

STA M 1922 / MAS M 1924 submachine gun

1317916824.jpg1317916925.jpg

MP-18                                                                                                                                                                                   EMP-35

MP18VWM.jpg600px-Pap_04.jpg

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48 minutes ago, saronin said:

Hey dufus, the game starts with the BoF. If we were to recreate exact conditions the French factories would be gone before we bumped up a tier. It would be a perpetual tier 0 route. 

Hey moron, that doesn't explain away your absurd point of view. You can't have one without the other. That's why we don't have either. Why is that so difficult to understand? It's like trying to explain rain to a child. 

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30 minutes ago, dm79 said:

Why do the Rats let threads like this go on and on, the same people using the same tired arguments that get everyone no where and change nothing, if you don't like the game in it current format walk away, [censored] off go do something more proactive to your own well being rather than sit in  threads like this day in day out regurgitating the same rubbish, can't you see you are achieving nothing.

EXACTLY!!!!! 

This is the dumbest thread EVER!

 

Ok. I've gotta go back to work. Have a great weekend everybody.  S!

Edited by lipton

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36 minutes ago, saronin said:

Bomb effectiveness, changes in foliage, multiple armor audits, changes in FRU rules (the biggest factor in the last 20 campaigns), warping of supply, and a whole host of other changes I can't think of right off hand. You act as though the game has been static. That is not the case. There have been changes and changes to the changes. 

Bomb effectiveness - Haven't Matties always required direct hits?  I have vivid memories of bombing Matties in a Stuka circa 2003 and not getting kill credits with near hits.  The bomb effectiveness nerf actually made it so that near hits on medium tanks would no longer kill those tank.  Out of all the tanks, the Matty was least affected by this change.  But Panzers instantly became harder to kill via air.  

Changes in foliage - I know there has been, but I'm not sure how this directly correlates to the Germans needing more tanks than before.  If anything, it theoretically should have made 88s even more deadly, as there would be more line of sight and less concealment for armor.  (also, if you check the historical numbers, the 88 is by and large the single biggest killer of Matties by nearly 10,000 kills;  Engineers/Sappers come in at 2nd, but with a 10x worse K/D than the 88).  

Multiple armor audits - The Matty's armor was never improved in any way, but the Panzers have had armor boosts over the years (especially the T0 stuff; the 3f and 4d in particular used to be even easier to kill).  I do believe the 3H and Cru had slight armor nerfs after they were introduced, however.  

Changes in FRU rules - Before we even had FRUs of any type, the Axis had lesser tanks facing larger numbers of Matties and still came out on top more often than not.

Warping of supply - how does this only affect the Allies and not the Axis in regards to the Matty?  The Matty can break a camp better than a StuG?  How many times has this happened to you per campaign?  Chances are extremely high that any flag warped in is drained of its 1 or 2 Matties anyway, but if the situation is reversed you can almost guarantee that all 10 StuGs in that armored flag won't be gone.  Plenty more supply to break an armor camp.  

 

Thanks for that though.  You actually strengthened my argument quite a bit!

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56 minutes ago, Capco said:

Bomb effectiveness - Haven't Matties always required direct hits?  I have vivid memories of bombing Matties in a Stuka circa 2003 and not getting kill credits with near hits.  The bomb effectiveness nerf actually made it so that near hits on medium tanks would no longer kill those tank.  Out of all the tanks, the Matty was least affected by this change.  But Panzers instantly became harder to kill via air.  

Changes in foliage - I know there has been, but I'm not sure how this directly correlates to the Germans needing more tanks than before.  If anything, it theoretically should have made 88s even more deadly, as there would be more line of sight and less concealment for armor.  (also, if you check the historical numbers, the 88 is by and large the single biggest killer of Matties by nearly 10,000 kills;  Engineers/Sappers come in at 2nd, but with a 10x worse K/D than the 88).  

Multiple armor audits - The Matty's armor was never improved in any way, but the Panzers have had armor boosts over the years (especially the T0 stuff; the 3f and 4d in particular used to be even easier to kill).  I do believe the 3H and Cru had slight armor nerfs after they were introduced, however.  

Changes in FRU rules - Before we even had FRUs of any type, the Axis had lesser tanks facing larger numbers of Matties and still came out on top more often than not.

Warping of supply - how does this only affect the Allies and not the Axis in regards to the Matty?  The Matty can break a camp better than a StuG?  How many times has this happened to you per campaign?  Chances are extremely high that any flag warped in is drained of its 1 or 2 Matties anyway, but if the situation is reversed you can almost guarantee that all 10 StuGs in that armored flag won't be gone.  Plenty more supply to break an armor camp.  

 

Thanks for that though.  You actually strengthened my argument quite a bit!

Actually it doesn't. Tankers lost their minds in the jungles of WWII Online because the sapper reigned supreme. Tank vs tank combat was less relevant than it is now. The Matty wasn't overly effective in giant bush tunnels filled with sappers. Tankers complained over and over on these forums about the issue. I'm not advocating a return to those days but you act as though the game has been static all these years. It hasn't. 

Oh. And by the way the sapper as usual actually leads the 88 2 to 1 in killing Mattie's this campaign. If the 88 is the all powerful killer of everything I don't see why you would even fear the pak 38. Especially in favor of more Matties.  

Edited by saronin

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41 minutes ago, Capco said:

Multiple armor audits - The Matty's armor was never improved in any way, but the Panzers have had armor boosts over the years (especially the T0 stuff; the 3f and 4d in particular used to be even easier to kill).  I do believe the 3H and Cru had slight armor nerfs after they were introduced, however.  

Armor audits on the matty since 2003..

Matty armor audit:

Armor leak where HE was blowing the tank - I am pretty sure there was a armor leak found and fixed however this is also when or around the time that HE was clipping into multiple tanks.

Audit to the exhaust covering as a weak spot - 37mm could kill it there.

 

Other armor audits that effected all armor including the Matty:

Updated destroyed tracked and destroyed state - when they first entered some tanks would become invulnerable after being tracked or be actually on fire but not kill the tank. The STU and PZH where bad about this.

Added fire walls

Track damage threshold - IIRC 3-4 audits on this

Barrel damage threshold - 2-3 audits

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39 minutes ago, stankyus said:

Armor audits on the matty since 2003..

Matty armor audit:

Armor leak where HE was blowing the tank - I am pretty sure there was a armor leak found and fixed however this is also when or around the time that HE was clipping into multiple tanks.

Audit to the exhaust covering as a weak spot - 37mm could kill it there.

 

Other armor audits that effected all armor including the Matty:

Updated destroyed tracked and destroyed state - when they first entered some tanks would become invulnerable after being tracked or be actually on fire but not kill the tank. The STU and PZH where bad about this.

Added fire walls

Track damage threshold - IIRC 3-4 audits on this

Barrel damage threshold - 2-3 audits

Right, but there's a difference between fixing what was broken and doing stuff like adding extra roof armor or making the Pak36 more deadly that it really was.  

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*** Why do the Rats let threads like this go on

Because there is nothing historical, accurate or realistic in allowing a 1944 gun to exist in 1940.

Simply wrong and needs to change.  Might well give axis HC light sabers if we are going to go down this route... no difference.

 

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3 hours ago, Capco said:

Right, but there's a difference between fixing what was broken and doing stuff like adding extra roof armor or making the Pak36 more deadly that it really was.  

Right!  Like like purposely dorking the flight characteristics of aircraft or making trucks so loud you can track them from anywhere in the AO or any other number of ridiculous fixes over the years.  This team has pledged a return to realism and I expect that based on adding Scotsman they will do so. 

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10 hours ago, saronin said:

Right!  Like like purposely dorking the flight characteristics of aircraft or making trucks so loud you can track them from anywhere in the AO or any other number of ridiculous fixes over the years.  This team has pledged a return to realism and I expect that based on adding Scotsman they will do so. 

This we can agree on!  I can't wait for his stuff to get in game.  

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You guys seem to think Scotsman is going to fix everything that is wrong with this game.  ...  Just like CRS implied the Steam release would fix everything that was wrong with game. I thought Scotsman was working on munitions. Is he working on more than that?

To read some of the comments lately, you would think Scotsman was ...

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I really want the devs to keep up their good work.  But there are so many low hanging fruit that needs to be fixed too.

Rank points....  Rank access to gear... squad perks....

Getting rid of the grease and sten gun in early tiers.

These are all no brainers, and take so little effort.

 

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3 minutes ago, delems said:

Rank points....  Rank access to gear

those work fine, you're not getting basic infantry weapons to require higher rank than a sniper.

4 minutes ago, delems said:

and take so little effort.

Please oh please demonstrate your programming and simulator skills.
Amaze me.
(waits)

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As a matter of fact, in the past I have programmed a lot.

Assembly level.

System level - multiple processes (i.e. background tasks) with semaphores for locking.

And have many times provided pseudo code here in forums to fix stuff.  I just don't code anymore.  And don't care to.

And we all know infantry weapons are a breeze to code overall, no reason we can't get infantry weapons in game fast.

 

And the ranking system is terrible atm, no points for fixing AI, way to many points for MS or capturing.  Air rank, it all needs to be worked.

And you are wrong imo, something with 25 units in supply should not be easier to get than something with 5 units in supply.

 

Edited by delems

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