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delems

Why 1944 SMG in tier 0?

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lipton
2 hours ago, merlin51 said:

He is, right after he gets back from the covert trip to your house to fix you.
We sent him with 13 gallons of enema fluid and a hydraulic pump.

You should perhaps try paying attention when Scotsman talks some time, and Hatch too, especially when its in threads you are griping in and stead of just running off to a new thread.

Wow merlin. Thanks for the suggestion. Reading threads. Hmmm. What a concept.  Pretty sure I've read everything he's posted. 

Once again, you enjoy making comments simply to call people stupid for no reason. It really doesn't impress others. No, really. 

Trust me. It's not impressive.

Edited by lipton

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lipton
1 hour ago, delems said:

Getting rid of the grease and sten gun in early tiers.

These are all no brainers, and take so little effort.

 

by-my-calculations-bd1m6l.jpg

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Merlin51
1 hour ago, delems said:

And you are wrong imo, something with 25 units in supply should not be easier to get than something with 5 units in supply.

the number of units in the supply line has no bearing on the rank needed to use it
the numbers are for balancing.
The axis made more panzershrek / panzerfaust/ ATR rounds / Infantry Anti Tank Weapons, than there were snipers born on the entire planet.

We dont put 300,000 panzershreks in the spawn pool because it would not play well as a game, not because they were harder to get or where rare or required an officers rank.

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agentwade

There seems to be some misconceptions here that I remember trying to clear up back when the new SMGs first came out, which is leading to a lot of clueless arguing. I'm not going to get into all of the rest.

 

There are a few things to know about the weapons that came out at that time and how they compare to others before people start complaining. The two big ones are that the new SMGs are not coded in the same way as the old ones, and that the eye relief of the new guns (and for some reason around then is when they changed the m1 Garand as well) is different than that of the old guns. Hopefully I can explain how this affects the performance of the guns and the way CRS behaved.

First off, the different way the accuracy of the guns are programmed. As most of you have probably noticed, the rifles in this game might as well be lasers. There's bullet drop, but otherwise the shot hits on point pretty much every time, with none of the dispersion you'd expect to see at range. It's been awhile since I've bothered with LMGs so I can't comment about it too much, but the old SMGs  had their bullet dispersion cranked up to 11, producing a horrible lack of accuracy even at 25-50m when firing even a single shot. All of them do this, but the MAS38 fires so quickly that it doesn't matter, while the .45 ACP rounds in this game do too much damage on top of being fired from the fast Thompson. So in the original SMG lineup, all guns are way too inaccurate, but the MP40's relatively slow rate of fire and only a 9mm cartridge make it so that it's not very impressive.

In contrast, the mp34 and the M3 and Sten don't have this ridiculous amount of dispersion, and act much closer to how they should in real life compared to other guns. That's why we have people in this thread talking about how the mp34 has to be fired in single shot, because they are reacting to how much differently it performs to the MP40 in both accuracy and recoil (the mp34 has to be way too high). Despite this, the Sten is a relatively stable gun that also uses 9mm rounds so it's not too bad, and the M3 has a slow enough rate of fire that a 2-3 round burst can be accurate (just like the other guns in this lineup) and deadly because of the .45 rounds.

Unless CRS brings all SMGs into line with way they do coded randomized dispersion, you're still going to have a problem with the guns performing much differently than each other. Any weapons audit by Scotsman has to address this.

 

Secondly, for some reason at some point CRS decided to model the art for guns to have a different eye relief once they started putting in new guns again. They did this across the board and for both sides. In the original guns, the eye relief was very close to the sight, giving you a clear picture of what you were looking at. This was moved much further back with the new lineup, for rifles and SMGs. With the german weapons you hardly notice it because of the way the rear sight aperture is designed, with its open sights. With the allied weapons though they all have a peep hole sight (you know, that closed metal ring), which caused huge problems with the new guns and required an immediate patch to fix them so that they were actually usable, as the area in which you aimed was so small and obscured that you had to hope that you were pointing at the enemy after moving your sights on him. This is why you saw immediate action to fix the artwork for them (and the Garand) but no other substantial changes afterwards.

 

To be quite frank I don't understand all of the complaining. The new guns aren't substantially better than the old ones for someone who knows what they are doing and if you really wanted to remove the late war guns you could simply pump up the original SMGs to match totals across forces. Personally I don't care either way, but really all you're doing at that point is taking away toys from one side without any impact on balance, in a game where we already currently tweak or ignore historical accuracy.

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Merlin51
23 minutes ago, agentwade said:

In contrast, the mp34 and the M3 and Sten don't have this ridiculous amount of dispersion

You are about to bring upon yourself a world of hate i am afraid :( 

friendly suggestion, hurry and go shoot the mp34 at the range in both full auto and small bursts
then run back here and edit your post before anyone else sees it.

23 minutes ago, agentwade said:

To be quite frank I don't understand all of the complaining.

I think if you ignore some of the nonsense here, we just want to try to keep our tiers together properly is all.

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delems

*** To be quite frank I don't understand all of the complaining.

Because they didn't exist in 1940?  What part of that is hard to understand?

Also, the grease gun has a 1.0 KD every map while the mp34 has around a 0.75;  that is 33% better for 1000s of sorties over many maps.

 

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Merlin51
2 minutes ago, delems said:

Also, the grease gun has a 1.0 KD every map while the mp34 has around a 0.75;  that is 33% better for 1000s of sorties over many maps.

couple things delems if i may?

Grease gun will always be partially more fatal in general than the mp40 or mp34
this is regardless of any kind of modeling argument we could have here.
It simply is firing a fat heavy round, so within its effective range it carries more per bullet potential for fatality, than a 9mm.

That would go for the M3, the M1928/M1 thompson, or the M1911

That said, the mp34 still needs to be audited, and im sure it is being audited, due to its crazy dispersion on even a 3 round burst.

 

Small nitpick?
1.0 / 0.75 is 25% higher, not 33%  :) 

I wish stats told you more detail, because i suspect the 0.75 KD is mostly occurring inside of a CP where dispersion issues do not matter so much.
Id like to see how it is fairing in open terrain combat, i suspect not so much.

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jwilly
15 minutes ago, delems said:

*** To be quite frank I don't understand all of the complaining.

Because they didn't exist in 1940?  What part of that is hard to understand?

Also, the grease gun has a 1.0 KD every map while the mp34 has around a 0.75;  that is 33% better for 1000s of sorties over many maps.

Any argument comparing K/D of individual weapons has always been weak at convincing CRS to change matters, because CRS recognizes that what matters is overall side lethality, not individual weapon lethality. Each national force has a different weapon set and mix, so individual-weapon K/D comparisons are always apples and oranges. 

But, the "didn't exist in 1940" argument goes to the game's core marketing pitch, and should be ironclad. 

The problem of course is that CRS has a history of breaking their own rules and refusing to acknowledge that or correct it. 

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delems

*** Small nitpick?  1.0 / 0.75 is 25% higher, not 33% :)

 

No it isn't...  lol; check your math.  0.75 for mp34 to 1.0 for grease gun is 33% better.  The mp34 is the base.

You're doing the opposite, the mp34 is 25% worse than the grease gun.  But the grease gun is 33% better.

 

Let me ask you a couple questions (ok, getting a bit philosophical here - and logical).

Games have rules, yes?  Does thinking have rules?  Reasoning?

As a matter of fact, it does.  Here are the questions to test your reasoning.

There is a table with 2 pennies and a nickel on it.

The question is, is there a penny on the table?

And, is there one nickel on the table?

 

How you answer... is how you reason... and it may be correct or incorrect.  Reasoning does have rules.

 

Edited by delems

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delems

*** CRS recognizes that what matters is overall side lethality

We have discussed this ad nauseam previously, and imo, it's fallacious.

 

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agentwade
1 hour ago, merlin51 said:

You are about to bring upon yourself a world of hate i am afraid :( 

friendly suggestion, hurry and go shoot the mp34 at the range in both full auto and small bursts
then run back here and edit your post before anyone else sees it.

I think if you ignore some of the nonsense here, we just want to try to keep our tiers together properly is all.

Again, I'm not talking about recoil, I'm talking about the random dispersion between each bullet (also known as Minute of Angle) if the gun and the barrel never moved between shots. The MP34's recoil is atrocious so it doesn't matter how accurate each individual shot is in a normal game setting normally because you aren't sniping with it. If it's accurate with single fire shots though, then it's already leagues ahead of the old SMGs. Fire a full magazine one round at a time (recentering in between if needed) on the m3, the mp34, or the sten, and I can pretty much guarantee that they will be more accurate than doing the same on the mas38, Thompson, or mp40.

Edited by agentwade

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Capco
22 minutes ago, delems said:

*** Small nitpick?  1.0 / 0.75 is 25% higher, not 33% :)

 

No it isn't...  lol; check your math.  0.75 for mp34 to 1.0 for grease gun is 33% better.  The mp34 is the base.

You're doing the opposite, the mp34 is 25% worse than the grease gun.  But the grease gun is 33% better.

This is correct.

 

Don't nitpick if you don't know your maths ;)

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agentwade
1 hour ago, delems said:

*** To be quite frank I don't understand all of the complaining.

Because they didn't exist in 1940?  What part of that is hard to understand?

Also, the grease gun has a 1.0 KD every map while the mp34 has around a 0.75;  that is 33% better for 1000s of sorties over many maps.

 

How does the mp34 compare to the mas38 and thompson is a better question in my opinion.

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Merlin51
8 minutes ago, delems said:

*** Small nitpick?  1.0 / 0.75 is 25% higher, not 33% :)

 

No it isn't...  lol; check your math.  0.75 for mp34 to 1.0 for grease gun is 33% better.  The mp34 is the base.

You're doing the opposite, the mp34 is 25% worse than the grease gun.  But the grease gun is 33% better.

 

the base is 0, at least to me, that is where you start out.
the mp34 achieved .75
the m3 achieved 1.0
a score of 25% higher

but none of it matters terribly because
1) the stats dont let us separate out detail, location, range to target, number of sorties etc
2) the mp34 needs some tlc before it can do much engaging of open terrain fire fights
 a .45 will most times be more fatal than a 9mm when we are considering marginal non insta kill hits, so the 9mm needs to make sure it gets more rounds on target
which is a little hard to do presently with it.

The grease gun can go to tier 3, ive no problem with that, i have never said anything otherwise.
But it will return, and even with a fixed mp34, the .45 bullets will still be more lethal overall.
That part will simply always be the case just like the .45 will never compete with an 8mm rifle round.

But when grease gun goes home to T3, please make sure that both the mp34 and the mas38 can actually hit each other from across the street.
It's either that or let them throw their knives 

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Capco
5 minutes ago, agentwade said:

How does the mp34 compare to the mas38 and thompson is a better question in my opinion.

It compares very poorly according to most accounts.  Although that's coming from the same people who think the MP40 is worthless and only use the MG34.  

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agentwade
Just now, Capco said:

It compares very poorly according to most accounts.  Although that's coming from the same people who think the MP40 is worthless and only use the MG34.  

Which means that the problem, stat wise, isn't the grease gun or the sten, it's the garbage mp34. Removing the allied guns doesn't make the mp34 any better.

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Capco
3 minutes ago, agentwade said:

Which means that the problem, stat wise, isn't the grease gun or the sten, it's the garbage mp34. Removing the allied guns doesn't make the mp34 any better.

Supposedly, there was a thread to fix the MP34 a while back, but the "Allied whine crew" got it locked and removed, according to @major0noob.  

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Merlin51
44 minutes ago, agentwade said:

Again, I'm not talking about recoil, I'm talking about the random dispersion between each bullet (also known as Minute of Angle) if the gun and the barrel never moved between shots. The MP34's recoil is atrocious so it doesn't matter how accurate each individual shot is in a normal game setting normally because you aren't sniping with it. If it's accurate with single fire shots though, then it's already leagues ahead of the old SMGs. Fire a full magazine one round at a time (recentering in between if needed) on the m3, the mp34, or the sten, and I can pretty much guarantee that they will be more accurate than doing the same on the mas38, Thompson, or mp40.

In single fire shots?
Yes it is pretty good, to me.
Allowing for your infantry man to rest a sec between aiming sessions, you can shoot a tight group.
Its the firing even a short burst that kills it, since 9mm it not exactly super fatal as a single shot gun.

the mas38 in single fire?
Not the best perhaps, but i can keep them all in the grey at 20m and 50m, you'd be dead if you were a paper target.
At 100m, well i can hit the target, but it doesnt look so good, you'd probably live, you may not even have a scratch.
but more so even than the mp34 perhaps, 7mm peewee mg is not going to prove super fatal like that.

the M1 thompson, which i will assume works same as the brit one?
Its really good on single fire, does a nice shot group.
It even does a very tight shot group on burst firing it at 50m.
At 100m It puts enough in the fatality zone burst firing it to not shrug it off.
Personally ive no complaints on it.

EDIT

mp40 does well too.
it does very nice in burst fire as well, at 100m bursting most rounds are in the fatality zone.
It has a slight issue, that is true, but it only comes into play, for me anyways, when rolling full auto.
It has too much lateral sway. Its predictable, so you can fidget mouse to make up for it, just kind of annoying.
In my own shooting of it, it isnt enough to take me out of the 20m to 50m game, i'll have enough bb's on you to hurt.
I'd love it tightened up, but it's one i can at least live with.

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agentwade
8 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

In single fire shots?
Yes it is pretty good, to me.
Allowing for your infantry man to rest a sec between aiming sessions, you can shoot a tight group.
Its the firing even a short burst that kills it, since 9mm it not exactly super fatal as a single shot gun.

the mas38 in single fire?
Not the best perhaps, but i can keep them all in the grey at 20m and 50m, you'd be dead if you were a paper target.
At 100m, well i can hit the target, but it doesnt look so good, you'd probably live, you may not even have a scratch.
but more so even than the mp34 perhaps, 7mm peewee mg is not going to prove super fatal like that.

the M1 thompson, which i will assume works same as the brit one?
Its really good on single fire, does a nice shot group.
It even does a very tight shot group on burst firing it at 50m.
At 100m It puts enough in the fatality zone burst firing it to not shrug it off.
Personally ive no complaints on it.

It's been a long time since I've tried comparing the US and UK Thompsons to be honest. I know field testing them that single fire was worthless past 15m though.

 

Either way, to be honest, the end game is that the accuracy and recoil of all of the SMGs need a hard look at, and as I mentioned the .45 ACP needs scrutinized in any of the guns that fire it, as it seems to kill in one hit more reliably than some of the rifles.

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Merlin51
13 minutes ago, agentwade said:

It's been a long time since I've tried comparing the US and UK Thompsons to be honest. I know field testing them that single fire was worthless past 15m though.

 

Either way, to be honest, the end game is that the accuracy and recoil of all of the SMGs need a hard look at, and as I mentioned the .45 ACP needs scrutinized in any of the guns that fire it, as it seems to kill in one hit more reliably than some of the rifles.

Well, the .45 simply carries a lot more KE
Doesnt have much range, drops really fast beyond 100m

That does not matter much if you just put 3 or 5 marginal hits on someone with a 9mm, where it matters is the times you get 1 or maybe 2 marginal hits
Take a 9 in the head or in the chest, unless its at long range, you can go pick your daisies.
 

That's where the mp34 is not doing well, it single fires and does 2 round bursts well enough.
But do a 3 to 5 round burst and it's kind of awful.
And im thinking that a nice finely machined heavy wood and steel 9mm smg should be a bit better than that.

Went to compare the brit M1928 to the us M1 thompson
M1 is better, tighter in burst firing and full auto, that that is not to say that the M1928 sucks.
The M1928 becomes noticeably looser at 100m when bursting.

M1928 has a bit nicer sight picture but you have to remember to aim low up close, M1 has smaller sight picture but you dont have to correct for range as much.
Once you are used to that, it would be simply matter of habit though.

You are right in that all small arms could probably stand to be run though a unified set of standards, they were all worked on adjusted etc over the years
by various different people and while i am sure all of them could code very well in their given area, not all of them may have understood the actual mechanics / physics of what they were coding.
 

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lipton
1 hour ago, Capco said:

Supposedly, there was a thread to fix the MP34 a while back, but the "Allied whine crew" got it locked and removed, according to @major0noob.  

Oh god.... don't get him started again lol  

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lipton

Do the Axis like the MP34 being in game? 

I only ask, because if the Sten and Grease Gun get removed... then the MP34 will have to be removed as well. One side can't have 2 SMG's while the other only has 1. It's called equipment parity. I believe I mentioned it on about page 4 or so. 

The point is... As I stated in the post on page 4 or so... CRS doesn't have the manpower or the money to add every weapon to the game that everyone keeps posting ENDLESS threads about. They just can't do it.

So... that means we are stuck with what we have. That means we live with what we have and we FIX what we have. That means we fix the MP 34 so it satisfies everyone. Then maybe everyone will STFU and we can play the F*cking game.  Geez!!

People will Biotch about the stupidest stuff.  IT's ONLY A F*CKING GAME 

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major0noob
1 hour ago, Capco said:

Supposedly, there was a thread to fix the MP34 a while back, but the "Allied whine crew" got it locked and removed, according to @major0noob.  

the grease gun was just as bad...

the problem is CRS's view on guns, historical accuracy and realism take a second seat to balance, then a third to "arcady-ness", then a fourth to just plain nerfing everything for the joy of the community...

 

there was a guy with a gif of the MP40: it was hitting outside the sight ring, that got the ball rolling. then only me, hatch, and 2 others contributed to "fix thread". there were several nerf this threads between the start of the fix thread and the announcement. this community is soo obsessed with nerfs.

 

16 minutes ago, lipton said:

Oh god.... don't get him started again lol  

i've brought the issue to your attention. all that matters is you guys being aware of your actions. if they're juvenile about it they'll loose credibility and be disregarded the next time it happens.

like how you've resorted to making noise to get attention.

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Merlin51
1 hour ago, lipton said:

Do the Axis like the MP34 being in game? 

Actually they do not, because it has some flaws preventing it from being useful.
In real life it was actually a quite expensive and well machined little smg even if they did kind of rip off Bergmann's BMP18 for the design.

1 hour ago, lipton said:

I only ask, because if the Sten and Grease Gun get removed... then the MP34 will have to be removed as well.

Oh for pete's sakes, not it does not.
It isnt some kind of upgrade, it is the equivalent of giving Liptons army 100 of the Lipton-SMG-95
And the US 50 M1928's and 50 M1 Thompsons.
The MP34 isn't some kind of upgrade or anything.
Just means that come T1 and T3 England and the US get an SMG added and all Germany gets is adjusted production of what they have.
The MP34 is pre T0, the Sten and the M3 are post T0
The MP34 causes no issue with parity of lethality, its no more lethal than an MP40.

Parity =/= variety of types

 

 

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saronin
1 hour ago, lipton said:

Do the Axis like the MP34 being in game? 

I only ask, because if the Sten and Grease Gun get removed... then the MP34 will have to be removed as well. One side can't have 2 SMG's while the other only has 1. It's called equipment parity. I believe I mentioned it on about page 4 or so. 

Or they could just double the amount of SMGs that are available so there is an equal amount of total SMGs in the spawn pool.

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