david01

Give mortarmen a 50 HE/ 50 Smoke loadout

25 posts in this topic

-mortarmen are woefully underused

-using mortars is actually fun, it's just vastly more efficient to spawn other infantry units in nearly every situation than get a mortar pit going

-bigger initial loadouts won't make the weapon itself more powerful

-the current mortarman loadout is already unrealistic, and most of the other infantry units have unrealistic abilities like hauling around 80kg of charges or the ability to swim rivers with full gear

-it would require almost no development time

-it could be changed back if somehow it broke the game

 

The goal is to make mortars something you see with every battle rather than just some novelty. The only real risk is that players might spam smoke screens everywhere, but with how little hard cover there is that might not be the worst side effect. Also it will be quicker to despawn and respawn than sit and reload, but that's already true for many units. Maybe have the rifleman ammo boxes top off more.

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You can have all the ammo you want
have a rifleman over stock you.

Better yet put an ammo box in your mortar pit, and have the rifleman overstock the bejeebers out of you and get an LMG stocked up in there too, because you get enough mortars laying it down, people come looking for you.

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Mortars are fantastic when you have someone running ammo for you. One of my favourite things to do is running ammo for mortars. Cause a lot of headaches for the enemy that way.

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I've gone hours of playtime at both attacks and defenses, and not seen a single mortar crew working together. That's because they're a waste of player time and are just done for roleplaying.

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I like the idea but you could cut that in half instead of 50,  or add a whole new mortar man class the 8 cm Granatwerfer 

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Engineers could be given the ability to build ammo boxes as well. This would mortarmen a lot.

 

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20 hours ago, david01 said:

I've gone hours of playtime at both attacks and defenses, and not seen a single mortar crew working together. That's because they're a waste of player time and are just done for roleplaying.

It's a good thing your opinion isn't reality.

2 hours ago, Zebbeee said:

Engineers could be given the ability to build ammo boxes as well. This would mortarmen a lot.

Well i am sure the engineers could build the box, but i doubt they could manufacture ammo in the field and stuff it in the boxes.
Luckily we have a truck that both hauls ammo and can drop boxes of it off.

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11 hours ago, Zebbeee said:

Engineers could be given the ability to build ammo boxes as well. This would mortarmen a lot.

It would help, and maybe keep players from firing from the FMS but the standard ammo resupply is way too slow for mortar gameplay; you'll spend 30 seconds firing your 10 mortars and much longer sitting and waiting on your mortars to refill.

 

50 mortars would allow one guy to keep up a bombardment on an area for about about 2.5 minutes. Seeing how ineffective mortars are that's not unreasonable. You still need marks and range, cover to fire from, some kind of protection, and a spotter. In fact it would better promote teamwork if people were freed up to spot for mortars instead of having to mindlessly run ammo (which doesn't even give good points).

 

Another good related change would be to change the mortars to be "automatic" weapons. That way you could just hold down the fire button instead of having to spam it.

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22 minutes ago, david01 said:

50 mortars would allow one guy to keep up a bombardment on an area for about about 2.5 minutes.

It is a crew served weapon.
You wants lots of bombardment, crew it.

24 minutes ago, david01 said:

In fact it would better promote teamwork if people were freed up to spot for mortars instead of having to mindlessly run ammo (which doesn't even give good points).

That is what the forward attackers do.
There is nothing mindless about running a good mortar crew, including running the ammo and watching for someone coming to attack you.
It does not sound like you actually believe the word teamplay that you use.
 

27 minutes ago, david01 said:

Another good related change would be to change the mortars to be "automatic" weapons. That way you could just hold down the fire button instead of having to spam it.

Taking into consideration the firing rate of the mortar, i do not think anyone is spamming it.
You dont just sit there in 1 spot and spam shells, that shows how little you understand the use of mortars.
I'd suggest perhaps you go shadow some of the people that use them effectively, they might learn you something.

29 minutes ago, david01 said:

Seeing how ineffective mortars are

Only because you are not using them effectively.
Come the HE audit, they are going to get a lot more effective.
Again, i suggest you go shadow some of the people who know how to effectively use them rather than ask for a crew served weapon to be turned into a solo
1 man army thing.

Next you will be asking that the M2 be allowed to carry 1000 rounds of ammo and fire from the hip

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On 27-10-2017 at 3:29 PM, david01 said:

I've gone hours of playtime at both attacks and defenses, and not seen a single mortar crew working together. That's because they're a waste of player time and are just done for roleplaying.

This.

Already proposed to make resupplu by fms 1 round per 5 seconds even when firing. That would make it used much more.

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On 10/27/2017 at 1:00 PM, muromachi said:

Mortars are fantastic when you have someone running ammo for you. One of my favourite things to do is running ammo for mortars. Cause a lot of headaches for the enemy that way.

 

This work would also suitable for motorcycles with a sidecar. A player with a motorcycle could load rounds of mortar, grenades, also ammo to small AAA  from FMS, FB  and deliver them to the combatants, who needs them. This would be a true heroic work...

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I love using mortars. rather than adding to the intitial load-out of 10 rounds, perhaps the way to go would be to increase the rounds supplied by riflemen, perhaps to 20 rounds per resupply rather than 10? In the right circumstances they can be useful, but only if heavily resupplied.

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1 minute ago, fidd said:

I love using mortars. rather than adding to the intitial load-out of 10 rounds, perhaps the way to go would be to increase the rounds supplied by riflemen, perhaps to 20 rounds per resupply rather than 10? In the right circumstances they can be useful, but only if heavily resupplied.

See?
Now there is an idea that makes sense and does not try to try to turn the unit into a 1 man fire team.

No matter what David thinks, he has no idea what it's like having a good mortar team cutting all approach to the AB bunker and a couple dedicated smokers.
And HE audit will make it better.

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I'm in favour of doubling the resupply as well. Sometimes the FMS/Ammo box is quite a ways away. An extra 10 rounds would do a lot to keep the mortar firing while I'm making my way back.

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5 hours ago, fidd said:

I love using mortars. rather than adding to the intitial load-out of 10 rounds, perhaps the way to go would be to increase the rounds supplied by riflemen, perhaps to 20 rounds per resupply rather than 10? In the right circumstances they can be useful, but only if heavily resupplied.

I like piddling around with them too. They're fun. The teamwork is fun. Mortars don't need a a little help though they need a lot of help. Otherwise they'll continue to be wastes of time and only good for the novelty. Specifically they need to be effective right out the gate and not require three people, a source of ammo and a minute of overstock. For instance if there are six people on a mission and one guy decides to stay back from the depot with a mortar that has to be a good idea. Or if when reacting to a 911 at a town it has to be worth it to grab a mortar and launch from the AB instead of rushing to recapture the depots. It's better gameplay to free up an ammo runner and have a spotter anyway.

5 hours ago, merlin51 said:

See?
Now there is an idea that makes sense and does not try to try to turn the unit into a 1 man fire team.

No matter what David thinks, he has no idea what it's like having a good mortar team cutting all approach to the AB bunker and a couple dedicated smokers.
And HE audit will make it better.

We have plenty of units in this game that should have a crew but don't due to gameplay reasons. The current mortars have no problem killing soft targets and blowing off wheels, so the HE buff won't help them unless it allows them to crack harder targets like light tanks. If you're going to spam every thread and be an aggressive contrarian then at least know what you're talking about.

nqirpf.jpg

Edited by david01

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A 50mm/2" mortar won't do squat to a light-tank beyond making them close the hatches. The HE charge is miniscule - around 2lbs/1Kg total weight - about half that being filling.. An 80-81mm/3" mortar would be a very different proposition, but again, it'd be a very fortunate direct hit on the engine-deck or turret-roof - light and some medium tanks only. In Normandy a great many "tankies" were killed by medium mortar-fire, but only because Jerry routinely stonked tanks in laager in the evening and mornings when guns were being cleaned, stores added and so forth. The main cause of death, outside of nme ATG/tank fire was sniper-fire, usually of commanders, and AT mines especially of Shermans, and artillery-fire, again usually whilst in laager.

In short, a 50mm mortar is a tactical weapon v dug-in troops, advancing with a normal rifle-platoon for brief use against a small position, or as integral - but weak - fire-support for a defending force whilst medium indirect mortar-fire is requested. It's not really meant as a sustained-fire weapon in the way that an 80/81mm/3" mortar is. It could fire Smoke, HE, and post 1942, a WP round. I believe, but cannot immediately find reference to, that it also fired an illumination round - almost certainly a flare with retarding parachute - but over what range I could not guess, probably perhaps 280 yards of so.

In short, in the absence of medium mortars, we're using 50mm mortars more in the role of medium ones - ie in sustained fire. In attack, their ammo loadout is about right, but in defense, not. Hence the fairly modest change I advocated.

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12 hours ago, fidd said:

In attack, their ammo loadout is about right, but in defense, not. Hence the fairly modest change I advocated.

No way. One extra capper is far more useful than one guy staying back and plopping off mortars. Almost every time you take a mortarman you're actually hurting the attack because they're so ineffective. Same story with defense; people would rather take another person recapping than playing around with mortars. Worse is that a mortarman can't even sustain a decent smoke screen with their ammo loadout. Even the RPAT infantry are given an effective ammo load to start with so I don't see why mortarmen are obligated to be oversupplied in order to be effective. I bet a majority of the light mortarman kills are actually from the rifle not the mortar.

Edited by david01

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19 hours ago, david01 said:

The current mortars have no problem killing soft targets and blowing off wheels, so the HE buff won't help them unless it allows them to crack harder targets like light tanks.

50mm mortars are not going to pop tanks, except when said tank has a hatch open and you are unlucky enough to take a mortar in the hatch.

But they do not do super well on soft targets now due to HE, you have to over saturate, post audit you will be a lot less lucky sprinting through the barrage zone, still, they are
pretty effective at closing pathways if you have enough in the group.
You still are not killing closed tanks with them ever, no idea why you'd even mention that?

17 minutes ago, david01 said:

mortarman can't even sustain a decent smoke screen with their ammo loadout.

You have enough to support a quick coordinated push.
If you want to smoke the place out for the next 10 minutes, no you need ammo supplied.
Not that hard, every rifleman has free ammo that he can't personally use.
Take a moment and support your mortar teams so they can support you.
Its called teamwork.

What special meaning am i supposed to get from your ancient screenshot?
You gave ammo to some guys running a mortar team once? And?

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I think I could go for a increase in initial supply to 20 rounds of each.. 10 HE does suck unless you are near a ammo box or have someone running supply to you.

 

I think there are better solutions than to give the mortar man a initial supply of 50/50.   A few options as I agree that 10/10 is rather anemic for what the mortar is supposed to bring to the battle field and in light of the new HE audit.

1. Allow the mortar man to build a PPO resupply ammo box specific to mortar rounds.

I see a few options that could work.

a. Mortarmans initial supply is 10/10, build the ammo box and you have 50/50 and the ammo box will resupply itself similar to the resupply mechanic in place.

b. Ammo box acts as a mortar ammo resupply like we have now... however if you let it rest you can max out your ammo supply to the same amount you can max out the current mortarman through infantry overstock. Keep initial supply at 10/10.

c. Ammo box PPO would need a generous placement availability so you could place them on depot roofs, all pavement types, rubble and forrest berms.

2. Keep a 10/10 but allow infantry resupply at 20/20 per resupply, therefore less time is needed to max mortar supply and the supplier can get about his business.

3. FMS and regular ammo boxes resupply are not limited to the personal supply limit (10/10) - they actually overstock the mortarman to regular overstock maximums.  Resupply infantry can speed up the process like now with a 20/20 resupply. Moving still drops overstock.

 

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On ‎31‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 10:48 PM, david01 said:

No way. One extra capper is far more useful than one guy staying back and plopping off mortars. Almost every time you take a mortarman you're actually hurting the attack because they're so ineffective. Same story with defense; people would rather take another person recapping than playing around with mortars. Worse is that a mortarman can't even sustain a decent smoke screen with their ammo loadout. Even the RPAT infantry are given an effective ammo load to start with so I don't see why mortarmen are obligated to be oversupplied in order to be effective. I bet a majority of the light mortarman kills are actually from the rifle not the mortar.

Acutally I don't disagree with you in terms of an extra capper being more use than a light mortarman, most of the time. 9 times out of 10 I achieve no kills. But the benefits of a mortarman are less obvious sometimes. I was defending Catillon the other day, and the allies has us cold, in particular were able to shoot anything that moved in the vehicle spawn, and owned all cp's, which meant we couldn't even try to get a 251 or Opel out to form a dfms. We were haemorrhaging troops. I managed to get a smoke-screen lain right across the front of the veh spawn, and a couple of opels got out, and eventually re-captured the linking cp. Reinfocements from Landrecies and the new Brigade eventually sent the allies packing, but it was a damn close-run thing, and all essentially made possible by a humble mortarman.

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No, no and no.

Get a truck, build a FMS or UMS, or build an ammo cache.

What is with this sudden push to give everyone unlimited ammo? (ala CPs, ABs, etc or extra ammo to mortar men?)

Just no.

Resupply is fine how it is in game - get a trucker/rifleman.

 

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Yay for wins going to those who can grok teamwork.

Boo for self sufficient Rambos hauling around hundreds of pounds of stuff.

I'm eager for the game to begin providing Loadouts based on weight. The more the game is messed up with troops hauling around 300 pounds, the harder it's going to be to implement plausibly realistic Loadouts.

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The game has only 2 AOs during "prime" time, what kind of teamwork do you expect when there's only 20 people on the P1 attack?

 

21 people attacking Brugge right now, a town that's a few km across. Setup a truck, two mortars and two runners for a modest pit and you've used up a quarter of your ground force. On something that might get a few kills over several minutes if they know what they're doing.

Edited by david01

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1 hour ago, david01 said:

Setup a truck, two mortars and two runners for a modest pit

Youd be better with 1 runner, 3 mortars.
You dont need that many runners, and you could even trade the truck for an FM or ammo box and go 4 mortars, 1 runner

Once you get them loaded up 1 guy can keep quite a number of mortars going.

 

You do of course need to coordinate with your forward troops to be highly useful

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