arno

We have a camping problem.

154 posts in this topic

No matter what you change with the fms, the camp will just move to another area. It's a balancing problem/not enough vets online. 

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there's absolutely nothing wrong with tweaking the FMS... build time/rebuild time/health all simple numbers that can be easily improved with simple tweaks.

just like flag timers, cap timers, supply, and FB health.

 

simple changes for big issues...

CRS we never expected you guys to get it perfect with one or even a dozen tries, the FMS has been a painful gaming experience since 3 days after its release (when we started hunting sitting trucks and camping).

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1 hour ago, ebert100 said:

No matter what you change with the fms, the camp will just move to another area. It's a balancing problem/not enough vets online. 

Us vets are the problem. We need to make noobs into vets at a faster rate. In game comms ftw.

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1 hour ago, ebert100 said:

No matter what you change with the fms, the camp will just move to another area. It's a balancing problem/not enough vets online. 

You're right about the camp just moving elsewhere, but the nature of the camping will be different and although still unpleasant it would be better gameplay than what I've seen occur at the FMS I think.

 

Compare the traditional army base camp with the FMS camps. To camp the AB you have to either rush the AB with overwhelming force, or have to settle from long range. If you get a long range camp on the AB you make yourself in to a sort of mini-objective, and the defender will try to bomb or flank you.  The AB camps generally have phases, like locking down the gates, locking down the murder holes, and then a climatic push as tanks try to move through the gates. The defender can spawn all manner of counters at the AB, and of course warping flags notoriously allow a defender to break a camp by teleporting the heaviest tanks in to town and having them spawn from the AB. There's none of that with the FMS, it can't spawn counters and it's so open that a single armored car can run rampant on the players spawning.

 

Also there used to be a red text warning and people saying to type .overrun when you spawning in to a camped AB, I'm not sure why that isn't incorporated in to the mission level so leaders can mark bad FMS.

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19 hours ago, merlin51 said:

Build your own. (Not directed personally at arno)
Rather than offer excuses why it can't be done, just go do it.
The biggest problem is mostly no one will do it.

rtvDcQj.png

Sure... in your mind, there is no problem and the "fix"  is something that the players have to do. All it takes is a truck and 6 engineers to set it up after the truck places the FMS.

I disagree and think the actual PPO FMS needs to be expanded to include walls and a separate area or areas for ATGs to spawn into.

 

 

 

That ei rifleman heard your truck coming in from 1.4km away and was already close enough to where you were setting the FMS up and shot you as it was 60% built.

 

Rinse, lather, repeat.

 

 

 

Maybe instead make the FMS bigger and have multiple non campable exit points?

Maybe disable shooting while standing inside the FMS spawn area like the other spawn points from depots?

 

I could see something like the existing FMs box with actual walls around the infantry spawn points and the ATG/AA spawning at a different location like the depots do.

 

By this I mean add structures to the existing FMS when it's actually built by the truck. 

By walls, I mean actual walls and not just short sandbags that only cover you if you lie down.

 

Infantry FMS in the middle, walls to protect the newly spawned, and then two gun boxes behind it, with walls to protect the newly spawned AA/ATGs.

 

We simply have GOT to have some protection upon spawning, and not one or two spawn points within a 6ft area.

It's just too easy to camp, like the old box-FRUs.

All anyone has to do is stand there and spray them down, or park a tank on the spawn area and they die instantly upon spawning into a tank's body.

 

I got stuck once while pushing an ATG around, where I couldn't get unstuck from their FMS. I was just messing around, trying to park INSIDE their FMS. Well, as I sat there stuck, they kept spawning and dying on my un-deployed ATG.

Of course, I despawned after figuring this out, but still... these FMSs need some more features to protect units spawning in.

 

Simply telling people to build PPOs around them isn't going to help much.

Edited by vasduten1

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Mines would help. So an EI just running to a FMS would come with a few Health risk. 

Even anti Tank mines would help. Would sure make it harder to get close to an FMS when ur track is blow.

Now how to implement that I have no clue or if it even is possible.

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making it weak on the inside (10 37mm HE  'ish) would stop a lot of tanks from camping.

most of the time the people camping it just can't destroy it so they do the next best thing and suppress it

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I love to camper.
I kill on average 20 to 30 eis per EFMS!

...same as allies camper an AB with 50 shermans..

lol

 

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15 minutes ago, major0noob said:

making it weak on the inside (10 37mm HE  'ish) would stop a lot of tanks from camping.

most of the time the people camping it just can't destroy it so they do the next best thing and suppress it

This. As someone who came back to check out the steam launch it's been my first experience of these FMS and it straight away felt odd that they aren't easier to destroy. It's not uncommon to see them survive for silly lengths of time, it's no wonder they end up perma camped.

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21 hours ago, arno said:

I took a look at the top kills in a sorte list and what I see there in my opinion is bad for the game. I assume the sorties on that list are all FMS camps. I also assume most of those dying in these camps are green tags. The FMS is easily camped. The design needs to be revisited.  Killing our new players like that is killing any future the game might have.

 

Related image

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A good fix for this situation has to do the following:

1) Reward players that out-flank the enemy to shut down their spawn point.

2) Refrain from suddenly warping in massive and/or sprawling fortifications.

3) Either replaces FB or doesn't replace FB. It's either going to be worse than the FB, or it will trivialize the FB. Can't make it better than an FB and keep the FB, that's really poor design. You could opt for improving the FB at the same time, but then that's got to be a part of your suggested fix, too.

4) Reduces the number of people being killed at a camped spawn.

 

A lot of these suggestions are violating the first three, which means you're putting more stock in protecting people that spawn in and giving them broader abilities. That is a massive detriment to any defensive force.

A better suggestion would be more information for the player letting them know if the spawn is camped before they spawn in, being able to toggle FMSes off/on, give an alternative method of shutting down FMSes other than camping them if you can't blow them (such as a capture timer, although that itself has many potential issues), etc.

The problem is not "The spawn is camped." The problems are "People keep spawning into camped spawns" and "People opt to camp spawns because they can't destroy them". At least as far as mobile spawns go. Giving any sort of spawn protection area beyond what is already offered can do a lot of harm to the game. Arcade shooters can get away with it because they have isolated maps and invisible walls/nonsensical barriers. In WWIIOL, the map is open. Keeping that open design is critical, IMO, though I can think of ways of preserving that and also having dedicated spawn protected areas in towns (not for mobile spawns, though).

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All I'm saying is that you can't even throw smoke when an FMS is really camped.

 

Give us multiple exits and an area that can't be entered by ei to stand there and spray. I'm looking at you, stankyus.

Hahaha

 

Also, I have done this... so really. It's not the players, they're gonna do what's easy and fun.

Lets make getting in and getting to town fun and easy.

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a lot of the time it's the only FMS on that AO... there are times with more than 2 FMS's under 1km, but they're not nearly common enough.

even with more information, when there's only 2 options and they're both camped there's nothing we can do.

 

if making new ones worked; people would make new ones and we wouldn't have this issue

teamwork is effective, but it's extremely effective for FMS camps and truck hunts. far beyond the effectiveness of attack ZoC's for FMS's

even taking gun and inf doesn't help much compared to 2-3 guys hunting

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I envision this:

0tpz1jx.png

The arrows indicate doors wide enough for ATGs to get out.

EI cannot shoot while inside the structure, just like the depot spawns.

The gun boxes can be angled to provide some sort of radius of coverage, too.

I want to see AA and ATGs be able to spawn in one of three locations, and the infantry spawn in the center or in front of my crude truck drawing.

 

Plenty of time to toss smoke, lay down mortar fire, etc.

 

Honestly, tossing nades in would be a lot of fun, too. Same goes for mortar fire into it. 

 

I don't know why people think an FMS has to be easily hidden... because the current design isn't easily hidden at all, and the box FRUs were only "slightly" hidden most times.

Make it a thing...

A defendable and fightworthy thing.

Edited by vasduten1

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@vasduten1

Are you also proposing that a truck sit still for 2 minutes, engine off, and then suddenly this monstrosity pops up at minimum distance to a town?

 

I'd instead suggest that FMSes be upgradeable, or have building stages instead. One of those upgrades could certainly be that design you made.

 

Also, how would someone blow that up? Lay satchels on the outside like an FB?

 

I also don't really see that solving certain kinds of camping. Sure, it stops infantry from sitting on the spawn, but it doesn't stop armor from shelling it or spraying it with MG, or even planes bombing it. It'd be just like having an FB camped with a bunch of players either blindly spawning or desperately trying to clear the area.

 

I think your suggestion helps solve some of the issues with FMSes, but I don't really see it fixing the spawn camp problem other than making it more difficult for lone infantry to camp it.

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On ‎10‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 3:02 PM, merlin51 said:

We do have objects called PPOs that can be used to redesign the FM at will.
Would not the failure to deploy them rest on the shoulders of the camped?

Over simplification of the problem is no solution.

Arno is correct the current FMS design is not good design.  I  took the time to fortify my FMS at a bridgehead after an Axis attack. The attack had long been over however was bored. Me and Grid tried to put up a defense around the FMS that would protect the ppl spawning in from being camped. It took 14 bunker PPOs, and sandbags behind the outer ringed bunkers entrances.  The sandbag wall is too low to provide adequate cover. So in order to set one up fast you need 14 engineers to spawn or 7 to do it in a rather quick way to make sure you don't get spawn camped.  With time you can do it, however from the air your spawn area is large and a string of bombs drops your PPO protection and all the effort. The other problem was the ability to get your AA and ATGs out.

I posted a cool proposition to allow engineers a scroll list of PPO designs to actually fortify your FMS. Highwalls and the ability to improve your FMS bunker design with a second build on the same FMS.  Your sandbag walls could be improved by rebuilding them or allowing them to auto connect or selecting corner pieces.. including earthen berms with log backing to make AA and tank bunkers. JUST putting in the hooks of FMS improvements into the game could be the first steps in allowing player built FBs where the design and fortification could make them mini fortresses. Let alone being totally different in layout.

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50 minutes ago, chaoswzkd said:

@vasduten1

Are you also proposing that a truck sit still for 2 minutes, engine off, and then suddenly this monstrosity pops up at minimum distance to a town?

 

I'd instead suggest that FMSes be upgradeable, or have building stages instead. One of those upgrades could certainly be that design you made.

 

Also, how would someone blow that up? Lay satchels on the outside like an FB?

 

I also don't really see that solving certain kinds of camping. Sure, it stops infantry from sitting on the spawn, but it doesn't stop armor from shelling it or spraying it with MG, or even planes bombing it. It'd be just like having an FB camped with a bunch of players either blindly spawning or desperately trying to clear the area.

 

I think your suggestion helps solve some of the issues with FMSes, but I don't really see it fixing the spawn camp problem other than making it more difficult for lone infantry to camp it.

I like the idea of upgrdign the FMS build to be like the idea I proposed, but really, the FMS right now is camped easily because the truck audio is heard from WAY too far away and any greentag can just start autowalking in that direction and end up within shooting distance of the poor sonofagun setting up the FMS and end it.

 

I'm not proposing a big build like this at minimum distance, but that's a great point. I could see this being built a minimum of 800M from town so engineers can build stuff leading to town. Not enough cover anyway besides shoot-through, drive-thru bushes.

 

Someone already has to drop satchels on the existing FMS... so why not?

 

Bombers SHOULD be able to A: drop it with enough bombing and B: kill infantry, trucks and guns.

The current model has NO protection from a tank sitting a hundred feet from the spawn in point and just spraying or shelling it.

It also has no protection from EI doing the same, and you usually find a guy with an LMG, (any country,) set up 50ft from it and just wrecking noob supply.

 

Something is better than nothing... and we have nothing now.

At least at a FB you can throw smoke around...

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, stankyus said:

I posted a cool proposition to allow engineers a scroll list of PPO designs to actually fortify your FMS. Highwalls and the ability to improve your FMS bunker design with a second build on the same FMS.  Your sandbag walls could be improved by rebuilding them or allowing them to auto connect or selecting corner pieces.. including earthen berms with log backing to make AA and tank bunkers. JUST putting in the hooks of FMS improvements into the game could be the first steps in allowing player built FBs where the design and fortification could make them mini fortresses. Let alone being totally different in layout.

Could we have options as suggested including those from the past?  Let the truck driver decide what he/she wants to place.

Option 1 manned truck (FSP).  Easily hidden, including in buildings.  Can flee from a tank camp and deploy again elsewhere.  Incentivizes newbies to fill this role as rank points were gained for each person who spawned.

Option 2 UMS truck.  Again something easily hidden including in buildings.  Great for large city use.

Option 3 the old FRU.  A little tougher than the truck and easily hidden.

Option 4 the current FMS.  Advantage is durability.

Option 5 ammo crate.

Combine those options with shorter PPO cool down timers, maybe some new/better PPOs (love the idea of mines btw) and I think you have something more flexible and survivable.  Rats, is this doable?

For the record, I am against the medium ATGs being spawned at these. Tow a gun and cover what you build. Having the field flooded with more leathal ATGs would be a nut shot to the tanking game which is about to take a huge one with the tank buster introduction.  

Also Mission Leaders need to be more responsible for their FMS.  Close it when camped.  Close it when the battle is over.  When AOs are pulled and the EWS remains heavy it is because veteran players moved on leaving their FMS behind and the green tags remained and the active battle tab funnels more green tags to the mission until it becomes camped.  Our irresponsibility combined with lots of players who don’t know better are feeding this trend.

 

 

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I'm still a new player to this game. I've already been on both ends of camping. When I was on the receiving end of it, did it make me want to exit out of the game? Not really. I understood that line had obviously fallen and it was time to relocate to another spawn in the area or to another active battle. It comes down to people needing better communication with others to tell them when an area is heavily contested. 

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2 hours ago, ryman89 said:

I'm still a new player to this game. I've already been on both ends of camping. When I was on the receiving end of it, did it make me want to exit out of the game? Not really. I understood that line had obviously fallen and it was time to relocate to another spawn in the area or to another active battle. It comes down to people needing better communication with others to tell them when an area is heavily contested. 

good post and astute observations. thx ryman. 

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15 hours ago, arno said:

Could we have options as suggested including those from the past?  Let the truck driver decide what he/she wants to place.

Option 1 manned truck (FSP).  Easily hidden, including in buildings.  Can flee from a tank camp and deploy again elsewhere.  Incentivizes newbies to fill this role as rank points were gained for each person who spawned.

Option 2 UMS truck.  Again something easily hidden including in buildings.  Great for large city use.

Option 3 the old FRU.  A little tougher than the truck and easily hidden.

Option 4 the current FMS.  Advantage is durability.

Option 5 ammo crate.

Combine those options with shorter PPO cool down timers, maybe some new/better PPOs (love the idea of mines btw) and I think you have something more flexible and survivable.  Rats, is this doable?

For the record, I am against the medium ATGs being spawned at these. Tow a gun and cover what you build. Having the field flooded with more leathal ATGs would be a nut shot to the tanking game which is about to take a huge one with the tank buster introduction.  

Also Mission Leaders need to be more responsible for their FMS.  Close it when camped.  Close it when the battle is over.  When AOs are pulled and the EWS remains heavy it is because veteran players moved on leaving their FMS behind and the green tags remained and the active battle tab funnels more green tags to the mission until it becomes camped.  Our irresponsibility combined with lots of players who don’t know better are feeding this trend.

 

 

Hmm.. Interesting I dea.. A FMS for all seasons. I still however want to play Erector Set BGE - I love building all that stuff. I have not achieve the AOmercy fanaticism for building but I sure as hell would do it if we had more ways to actually construct the FMS.  I would dedicate it as FOB AOmercey.

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Demanding that ingame leaders provide better leadership and better communication are just cop-outs. You could avoid any change by saying that the problem could be fixed by better leadership and communication by players. Mission and squad leaders at any rate have no control they're completely powerless conduits for the rest of the playerbase.

 

Any sort of improvement in communication has to be automated and not rely on players. For instance every time a player dies within 15m of the FMS, the mission itself could flash red for five seconds in the mission menu. Or red text and alarm buzzer saying "spawn is under fire!". But again no improvements will happen until people stop pushing off bad gameplay on the players. I post a video showing greentags getting badly camped in late September, everyone says that "leadership" can solve that, it's November now and the game has a very poor rating on Steam.

 

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1 hour ago, david01 said:

Demanding that ingame leaders provide better leadership and better communication are just cop-outs. You could avoid any change by saying that the problem could be fixed by better leadership and communication by players. Mission and squad leaders at any rate have no control they're completely powerless conduits for the rest of the playerbase.

 

Any sort of improvement in communication has to be automated and not rely on players. For instance every time a player dies within 15m of the FMS, the mission itself could flash red for five seconds in the mission menu. Or red text and alarm buzzer saying "spawn is under fire!". But again no improvements will happen until people stop pushing off bad gameplay on the players. I post a video showing greentags getting badly camped in late September, everyone says that "leadership" can solve that, it's November now and the game has a very poor rating on Steam.

nearly everyone thats played for 2+ years falls back on the "leadership" excuse. it's even worse than minimum wage motivational videos "be a team leader! take up the mantle of bathroom janitor"

man, everything's solved by having "leaders" yet we still have the same problems even when 90% of the pop played for several years.

 

frick we had 2-8 hours of nothingness last year and hours of no FMS's just a few months ago, both were "lack of leadership"... it's a tired old excuse and all it does is undermine or derail a argument

 

18 hours ago, arno said:

Option 3 the old FRU.  A little tougher than the truck and easily hidden.

this shouldn't be difficult at all.

bet it's easy enough to test for a campaign then remove it mid way

Edited by major0noob

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