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arno

We have a camping problem.

154 posts in this topic

I agree that the FMs build time should be shortened until we find a range that actually works.

 

Maybe try 1:00 for a campaign?

Maybe 0:45?

 

Something to encourage FMS building and maybe... just ,aybe fix the truck audio for everyone so that the second you get within 1.4km everyone in town hears you for a full 15 min before you even get close to town?

 

If a truck can't get close enough because ONE rifleman can just autojog in a direction to shoot the driver in the head... there's a problem. Even when you run 2-3 truck in, (usually HC people driving them in to help out in most cases,) the AO is killed by one rifleman autowalking.

 

What if you don't have enough players on the drive 2-3 trucks minimum to a new AO? Well, pal... you don't really HAVE an AO.

You have one or two FMSs that are quickly camped and the AO goes nowhere.

 

Go ahead... tell me that "better teamwork" or "USE COMMS lol" will solve this problem. 

 

I'd counter with a resounding, "There aren't enough people to get this job done so how would better teamwork help if you only have two people driving FMSs in to any given AO?".

 

Drop the timers down a little, decrease truck audio range across the board to 1km or 800M and Make WWIIOL Great Again.

LOL

 

Edited by vasduten1

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1 hour ago, david01 said:

There's immediate action that could've been taken, but hasn't. Like lowering the absurd 1:30 FMS build time. Everything doesn't require complex or sweeping changes. The problem is that no one thinks that there's a problem.

I don't know why there's talk about a WW2online 2.0 when better graphics/UI won't cure a bad game design. It's like they ignored all warnings about releasing on Steam, refuse to make changes, and are now going to work on something else because the current game is hopeless.

sort of agree. someone said elsewhere (vas duten maybe) that when he first saw the description of the game and the game box he was sold. many steam players seeing/reading air/navy/inf/huge map/ brit/french/german etc. are attracted to the concept - but turned off in the first instance - not by mechanics or tactical details but by the broader clunky graphics, tech bugs and ui, cost and mostly (as evidenced by all the simple questions asked by steamers) the non- intuitiveness of it all  as ingrained in most modern games by convention.

game design can evolve, change and react over time just as the current game has  had changes with fbs, mobile truck spawns, AOs, HC, Toes, (for better or worse) over time.  wwii ol can, should and must continue to try/test/do these type of changes. 

but you've read the reviews - specific immediate actions (like FMS build time, or warping brigades) has NOTHING AT ALL to do with why so many new steam players are either turned off, disappointed or delete the download. 

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On 11/12/2017 at 2:15 PM, sorella said:

sort of agree. someone said elsewhere (vas duten maybe) that when he first saw the description of the game and the game box he was sold. many steam players seeing/reading air/navy/inf/huge map/ brit/french/german etc. are attracted to the concept - but turned off in the first instance - not by mechanics or tactical details but by the broader clunky graphics, tech bugs and ui, cost and mostly (as evidenced by all the simple questions asked by steamers) the non- intuitiveness of it all  as ingrained in most modern games by convention.

game design can evolve, change and react over time just as the current game has  had changes with fbs, mobile truck spawns, AOs, HC, Toes, (for better or worse) over time.  wwii ol can, should and must continue to try/test/do these type of changes. 

but you've read the reviews - specific immediate actions (like FMS build time, or warping brigades) has NOTHING AT ALL to do with why so many new steam players are either turned off, disappointed or delete the download. 

That was gaspipe, who probably hasn't played in four years.

 

But still... your point is valid.

Inviting Steam players in and then giving them an incomplete and useless tutorial hurt greatly.

They still have no idea how things work in the game.

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On 11/12/2017 at 2:15 PM, sorella said:

but you've read the reviews - specific immediate actions (like FMS build time, or warping brigades) has NOTHING AT ALL to do with why so many new steam players are either turned off, disappointed or delete the download. 

1. Camping is bad gameplay.

2. There is way too much camping in this game, and camping is too easy.

3. Someone should do something to try and reduce the camping.

 

Like I said the problem is that no one here thinks that camping is a problem: The defender being so ridiculously powerful is good gameplay. If some player tries to start some action and places a FMS without bringing full armor+air+ATG support then they SHOULD be camped because it's muh combined arms. Before people said that it wasn't the gameplay of WW2online, it was the lack of exposure and advertising. Now it's still not the gameplay, it's the bugs and the bad tutorials.

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On 11/12/2017 at 0:10 PM, vasduten1 said:

Go ahead... tell me that "better teamwork" or "USE COMMS lol" will solve this problem. 

Ok.  Use better teamwork and comms and it will solve this problem.  This is a HC issue, not really a player issue.  The fact that there is a big flashing box and AOs force all play into a couple of zones is what causes this problem.  Not how loud the trucks are.  I have spawned 26 trucks this campaign, and other than a couple of FB runs, they have all been to set FMS's.  I have had 3 trucks KIA.  Doesn't sound like a problem to me. 

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2 hours ago, david01 said:

1. Camping is bad gameplay.

2. There is way too much camping in this game, and camping is too easy.

3. Someone should do something to try and reduce the camping.

1. Actually, bad gameplay also leads to camping.  There was an EFMS set up in view of our AB the other night with only broken cover.  I set up a tank next to the AB and just slaughtered them as they ran like lemmings to the AB.  Poor FMS placement, no cover, not using smoke, and running directly into fire is not a camping problem. 

2. An unorganized rabble, poorly led, will always get slaughtered.  Always. 

3. Organize, adapt, adjust, and overcome.  Or come to forums and complain.

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51 minutes ago, ratzilla said:

Ok.  Use better teamwork and comms and it will solve this problem.  This is a HC issue, not really a player issue.  The fact that there is a big flashing box and AOs force all play into a couple of zones is what causes this problem.  Not how loud the trucks are.  I have spawned 26 trucks this campaign, and other than a couple of FB runs, they have all been to set FMS's.  I have had 3 trucks KIA.  Doesn't sound like a problem to me. 

1zfw5k.jpg

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1 hour ago, ratzilla said:

1. Actually, bad gameplay also leads to camping.  There was an EFMS set up in view of our AB the other night with only broken cover.  I set up a tank next to the AB and just slaughtered them as they ran like lemmings to the AB.  Poor FMS placement, no cover, not using smoke, and running directly into fire is not a camping problem. 

2. An unorganized rabble, poorly led, will always get slaughtered.  Always. 

3. Organize, adapt, adjust, and overcome.  Or come to forums and complain.

The vast majority of Steam players aren't complaining, they're quietly uninstalling and never playing the game again. A minority leave a negative review. You're not going to have a game to play at this rate. The Steam launch was this game's last chance and I challenge anyone to say that it's been a success.

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28 minutes ago, david01 said:

The vast majority of Steam players aren't complaining, they're quietly uninstalling and never playing the game again. A minority leave a negative review. You're not going to have a game to play at this rate. The Steam launch was this game's last chance and I challenge anyone to say that it's been a success.

Hi,

You do make some valid points at times. There is truth in that most of a population will quietly leave something they do not like, but unlike a bad restaurant, and even then, I'd say a lot of these people will return from time to time and if the game or restaurant does improve over that time some of them will change their minds and remain. It's a game and most of those quiet departures got to try it out for free. At least it's on their radar somehow. If you take a snapshot now, anyone can make the case that the launch may seem unsuccessful. Fortunately most of those silent majority folks can be won back, because by their very nature most of them have open minds. We can still get there, I believe. Only CRS knows if that is a viable statement. I'ts easy to second guess the timing of the release but it can still end up being a success story. Ultimately, success has a way of washing away past mistakes. We'll see.

With all due respect,

S! 

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2 hours ago, david01 said:

The vast majority of Steam players aren't complaining, they're quietly uninstalling and never playing the game again. A minority leave a negative review. You're not going to have a game to play at this rate. The Steam launch was this game's last chance and I challenge anyone to say that it's been a success.

I'll say it:

The Steam launch was never touted as "the game's last chance".

Not by CRS. The intention was to expose another sector of the market and see if it helps. I never saw anyone act as though it was, either it was a way the volunteer team could expose the game to a wide audience and get at least a small boost. That happened, and there are still a lot of greentags around. I don't know what the Steam launch did for sales because I don't work at CRS and I don't recall them opening up the books, ever.

What I do know is that the numbers have dropped sharply in the past two weeks and finding a good fight last night was not an easy task. Too few on.

I still see a lot of greentags though, and names that went from green to blue, and a couple of new squaddies. The numbers are still better today than six months ago. I'd call that a success, if a small one.

 

I suspect the Steam launch was a relatively small financial investment, (like updating to a v2.0,) so what's to lose? Time that the volunteers willingly gave to try and help their favorite game out? Some hard work? 

I admire CRS for trying SOMETHING after taking things over and I apreciate the hard work that went into it all. That isn't a casual decision, really. 

 

As much as I take issue on the forums about things I perceive in the game, I still love it. When it's really low-pop, there are still ways to find fun.

I jogged an engineer from a FB to kill an EFMS near the FB, and after finding it gone already, I waltzed into town and killed a DFMS that had killed me and Jliprin in our Stugs a half hour earlier, dodging a few ETs to do it. That was satisfaction. Then, I went into a depot and captured it, despawned and respawned ad took City and had the W depot at 90% but died to a 2 man bum-rush up the stairs. I killed one of them though.

That was fun.

 

The situation with the Axis was difficult last night though. Comms were absent mostly, but nobody was coordinated at all. Allied defenses were though.

Tough times for the ol' Axis Arseholes.

:)

 

 

Edited by vasduten1
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5 hours ago, ratzilla said:

1. Actually, bad gameplay also leads to camping.  There was an EFMS set up in view of our AB the other night with only broken cover.  I set up a tank next to the AB and just slaughtered them as they ran like lemmings to the AB.  Poor FMS placement, no cover, not using smoke, and running directly into fire is not a camping problem. 

2. An unorganized rabble, poorly led, will always get slaughtered.  Always. 

3. Organize, adapt, adjust, and overcome.  Or come to forums and complain.

Basically I agree with this. 

However, I wonder just how many new players don' have the chat screen up and so are not getting messages such as "stop running at Ratzilla's flaming tank !!!" I really do wonder about this and if CRS has any idea on this from some data source involved with their game engine.

In game voice, seems really needed, though some new players would turn that off as well I suppose.

I can't imagine that a new player upon hearing that if they run this way or that way they will "die" immediately is not going to take the advice. Or that the FMS is totally camped and then decide to still spawn in at that fms.

People can suggest downloading discord etc...but that is perhaps the "one more thing" "the one bridge too far" that new players just aren't willing to do, since they are new to the game, want to get in to action asap and see what the game is about....etc.

And no matter, how much any of us veterans will reason and offer opinions about getting organized etc..... this won't stop new players from experiencing highly disappointing game play (like getting repeatedly camped) when they can't or won't communicate.

Not sure exactly what the solution is, perhaps a zone of "no death" around the fms....a small one, can't shoot in (but can still sap the fms), can't shoot out...like the depots perhaps.

Certainly better comm's.

It is disappointing that numbers have dropped off again, though some have remained as Vasduten noted.

Anyway...just some thoughts on it.

My thanks to the volunteers in the community and CRS for keeping things going. I am amazed at their efforts, patience and willingness to persevere.

S!

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, david01 said:

The vast majority of Steam players aren't complaining, they're quietly uninstalling and never playing the game again. A minority leave a negative review. You're not going to have a game to play at this rate. The Steam launch was this game's last chance and I challenge anyone to say that it's been a success.

I accept your challenge.

It's exposure constant exposure, and easy access to the game.
Last Chance is your own perception.

Steam is a place where there are 10's of 1000's of gamers every day, it's kind of become the goto place.
The old sites just don't garner the exposure they used to, and they don't provide any ease of access, steam does.

This isn't and never was the kind of game that you would show 10,000 people and walk away with 7,000 of them.
You can't expect that out of steam either, you would have to fundamentally change the game to something that it is not.
There is only a certain kind of gamer that this game will attract, they are not the majority, but they are out there, and steam is a
good way for us to be found.
 

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LOCK THE DAMN CHATBAR ALREADY.

And make a PM so that they can't miss it. If it's a Language barrier so be it. But even the densest player will realize that he is spoken too when he sees his in game tag. 

Then he can respond either in broken English ( and a huge population knows at least some basic English ) or they respond in their own language and you know u need to direct them either somewhere else that might speak that language if u know a player. If not then the is Google translate ,have ur phone next to ur PC. 

It's not like we don't have options . 

 

 

Oh and BTW  , I eat at a bad restaurant I don't go back . And usually within a year they Close their doors. But that is the restaurant business and not WWIIONLINE.  

But I can't get a former player to come back either that I used to work with. He just has no desire to play it anymore.

So the future is either bright or dim or we keep the status quo and the Vets keep it alive cause we enjoy the game. 

 

Side note so sick of my phone changing what I actually say to what it thinks it should be.

Edited by dre21

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15 hours ago, vasduten1 said:

I'll say it:

The Steam launch was never touted as "the game's last chance".

Not by CRS. The intention was to expose another sector of the market and see if it helps. I never saw anyone act as though it was, either it was a way the volunteer team could expose the game to a wide audience and get at least a small boost. That happened, and there are still a lot of greentags around. I don't know what the Steam launch did for sales because I don't work at CRS and I don't recall them opening up the books, ever.

I suspect the Steam launch was a relatively small financial investment, (like updating to a v2.0,) so what's to lose? Time that the volunteers willingly gave to try and help their favorite game out? Some hard work? 

I admire CRS for trying SOMETHING after taking things over and I apreciate the hard work that went into it all. That isn't a casual decision, really. 

:)

 

Agree. Steam Launch wasn't a home run - but its exposure to tons of gamers (400K+ downloads) and the gaming business brought in some new blood and most importantly new perspectives  and new issues - from chatbar lock to screen resolution, camping, need for better tutorials, lack of  ui intuitiveness by modern standards etc etc etc - lot of stuff rarely if ever discussed here cuz it wasn't a clear issue until Steam. 

Take a long view - and this game deserves a long view since its still going after 16+ years - its another big phase in the long beta of the game's dev. Hopefully there's enough learning and enough money to keep going and fix stuff one step at a time. 

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The FMS has changed the game and ushered in a new ERA of tank-infantry co-dependence. I think this is good...  that it is very difficult to hold territory with inf only.

Now that the MS has been fortified, instead of being destroyed, it gets camped. So the fundamental problem is that A FMS is deployed but the territory isn't held. Our tactics need to change. P1 when an FMS is deployed must be to hold the ground. ATGs should be amongst the first to spawn.

But I agree that green tags dying in their hundreds is EXTREMELY bad for the game and action NEEDS to be taken.

Another cause of this is the dynamics of the active battles tab. Players want to spawn into a mission with an FMS.. who wants to walk for miles? So if there are few missions with FMSs, then the ones that have them are propelled to the top of the list. When they start spawning in and dying instantly, it has the effect of keeping that mission at the top of the list and this sustains the vicious cycle. Very often the vets move elsewhere without deleting the FMS leaving the green tags to their fate.

So, when an FMS is camped, an FMS is dead and the player base needs to take responsibility for that and delete the FMS. 

Another phenomenon I've seen is players headed to a town with no AO because there are already players in the mission, it's at the top of the active battles tab. And because it's at the top of the active battles tab, more players spawn in and you have lost more than half the logged in players to some un-AOd town!

A simple solution is to give MLs the option to hide their mission from the Active Battles tab. Another thing that will help is to allow the ML to close their mission and prevent further spawning in. I think these are essential.

Notwithstanding all that , I like the FMS... it helps create zones of control and a front line... but we have to know when the game is up and the ground is lost.

 

 

Edited by Di11on
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Quote

A simple solution is to give MLs the option to hide their mission from the Active Battles tab. Another thing that will help is to allow the ML to close their mission and prevent further spawning in. I think these are essential

The ML has the option of deleting a FMS he does not have to close the mission. Now if no more AO and he leaves the mission. The mission usually gets passed to the next ranking player. Maybe this needs to be looked at that once a ML closes his mission that it Does NOT get handed down.

Cause once the mission is in a Greentags hand he won't know what to do and if more and more spawn it stays active and on top of the battle tab with no end in sight. Till they log cause no one knows what's going on ,they saw no action , are unhappy with the game well you know the rest of the story. 

Edited by dre21

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We can't discriminate, on the basis of mission-figures, between people who place tanks behind the FMS, and those who face the FMS. The latter, I would suggest are legitimate, although, there is self-evidently a flaw in the implementation of the FMS that in experienced players can find themselves made ML, and there's no mechanism for them to usurp control of the ML-ship, to close the FMS. The "simple" answer would be for any player LtCol or above, to be have the ability to take leadership. Ideally, there should be a mechanism whereby someone complaining that "xyz FMS is camped" should be able to highlight the FMS - or any similar feature such as an FB- on the theatre-map, and when he uses text "FMS" or FB" whilst this features is highlighted, it presents in his text as a clickable link to that mission, regardless of who is ML. This would be most useful to HC, or Squad commanders, as they can not only get people spawning in the "right" FMS, or FB, but they can also get a camped one quickly and correctly indentified for a senior player to take command and close.

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22 hours ago, dre21 said:

LOCK THE DAMN CHATBAR ALREADY.

And make a PM so that they can't miss it. If it's a Language barrier so be it. But even the densest player will realize that he is spoken too when he sees his in game tag. 

Then he can respond either in broken English ( and a huge population knows at least some basic English ) or they respond in their own language and you know u need to direct them either somewhere else that might speak that language if u know a player. If not then the is Google translate ,have ur phone next to ur PC. 

It's not like we don't have options . 

 

 

Oh and BTW  , I eat at a bad restaurant I don't go back . And usually within a year they Close their doors. But that is the restaurant business and not WWIIONLINE.  

But I can't get a former player to come back either that I used to work with. He just has no desire to play it anymore.

So the future is either bright or dim or we keep the status quo and the Vets keep it alive cause we enjoy the game. 

 

Side note so sick of my phone changing what I actually say to what it thinks it should be.

Hi,

It's just an analogy. You have the right to vote with your feet and wallet. I worked in the restaurant industry for 20+ years from dishwasher to general manager. I've seen many a restaurant concept recover under new management or even the current management making adjustments and doing a reopen. They do not all close within a year after a rough start. It is a tough business though and things can go bad very quickly for a number of reasons.

Maybe it is a poor analogy. The point is the doors of WWII online haven't closed in how many years? That with all kinds of bad publicity. Have you seen or read some of the old reviews from when the game launched or throughout it's history? The latest metacritic is 73%. In my humble opinion that is not bad.

Some folks are very rigid once they sour on something. I've never gotten any of my friends to stick to this game, no matter what I tell them or how many times I've gotten them to try. It's a unique game for a unique set of players. Fortunately, no one is going to get violently ill for eating bad food in WWII online. I can easily say that even if the doors close tomorrow the game has been a great success from my point of view. The game has not changed enough yet for your friend to take another look would be my guess or their is some deep seeded grievance that they are unwilling to let go. I don't know, their your friend so you would know better why.

As long as the doors remain open their is ALWAYS a chance for anyone to change their mind. I just think CRS is doing the best they can to move the game forward, even though I question things sometimes...I give them the benefit of the doubt.

S!

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23 hours ago, dre21 said:

Side note so sick of my phone changing what I actually say to what it thinks it should be.

Turn off auto-correct...

 

I did, and while I make mistakes sometimes and have to go back and retype stuff on occasion, it's a lot less of a hassle than having some algorithm think it knows what I'm trying to say. It hardly ever gets that right, so I dropped it. 

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1 hour ago, vasduten1 said:

Turn off auto-correct...

 

I did, and while I make mistakes sometimes and have to go back and retype stuff on occasion, it's a lot less of a hassle than having some algorithm think it knows what I'm trying to say. It hardly ever gets that right, so I dropped it. 

Your phone was weird though. It just thought your were trying to make constant references to fat people face sitting. 

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Funny, i never camped the old style FRUs -- just destroyed them with grenades and moved on.  Since i can't do that anymore, i have no choice but to camp an FMS until it is destroyed by an Engineer or is pulled down after 20 or so kills.

Perhaps reduce the number of shots needed by tanks to destroy an FMS might help ---- camping is boring and not very sporting, and hurts the game.  I hate doing it, but the current form of FMS encourages it.

Perhaps also have an auto - remove for the FMS- if a certain number of kills are recorded within a very short period of time it is deleted- say 10 kills in 20 seconds.

 

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48 minutes ago, blakeh said:

Funny, i never camped the old style FRUs -- just destroyed them with grenades and moved on.  Since i can't do that anymore, i have no choice but to camp an FMS until it is destroyed by an Engineer or is pulled down after 20 or so kills.

Perhaps reduce the number of shots needed by tanks to destroy an FMS might help ---- camping is boring and not very sporting, and hurts the game.  I hate doing it, but the current form of FMS encourages it.

Perhaps also have an auto - remove for the FMS- if a certain number of kills are recorded within a very short period of time it is deleted- say 10 kills in 20 seconds.

 

Seriously though... maybe one or two HE satchels should take them down.

 

It's not easy to get out there, and well... that's not the issue. The issue is that when you discover one, and set up to suppress in a tank or with an infantry unit that DOESN'T carry HE... unless you have a squaddie on channel or willing to help, the FMS will stay there while 25MM ATGs sneak around and kill your crew with one or two shots.

Asking the other people in target seldom results in the riflemen who are within 200M of it coming to sap it. 

 

I'd say ten rounds of 75MM or 8 rounds of 88 He should do it.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, stonecomet said:

Hi,

It's just an analogy. You have the right to vote with your feet and wallet. I worked in the restaurant industry for 20+ years from dishwasher to general manager. I've seen many a restaurant concept recover under new management or even the current management making adjustments and doing a reopen. They do not all close within a year after a rough start. It is a tough business though and things can go bad very quickly for a number of reasons.

Maybe it is a poor analogy. The point is the doors of WWII online haven't closed in how many years? That with all kinds of bad publicity. Have you seen or read some of the old reviews from when the game launched or throughout it's history? The latest metacritic is 73%. In my humble opinion that is not bad.

Some folks are very rigid once they sour on something. I've never gotten any of my friends to stick to this game, no matter what I tell them or how many times I've gotten them to try. It's a unique game for a unique set of players. Fortunately, no one is going to get violently ill for eating bad food in WWII online. I can easily say that even if the doors close tomorrow the game has been a great success from my point of view. The game has not changed enough yet for your friend to take another look would be my guess or there is some deep seeded grievance that they are unwilling to let go. I don't know, their your friend so you would know better why.

As long as the doors remain open their is ALWAYS a chance for anyone to change their mind. I just think CRS is doing the best they can to move the game forward, even though I question things sometimes...I give them the benefit of the doubt.

S!

Oh I too worked in the restaurant business,  I'm actually a chef ( apprenticeship in a very well known local restaurant in Germany and so on and on)

My point was more or less most of the time you get one chance and you are done. ( new players looking and playing the game)

Fact is more bars and restaurants close within that 1 year period. I also said that WWIIONLINE is not in the restaurant business it has been here for 16 years .

But again my point goes back to the 1 chance standpoint. 

My friend said he has no desire to play it, and that's about it. 

I actually like what CRS is doing it could go a bit quicker and somethings that should be in game are still not real basic stuff, but since Xoom and company took over I'm very optimistic . There is a reason why I have been with the game since October 2001.

It's just plain fun to me. And sometimes frustrating too.

 

P.s autocorrect is off it just likes to plug in words I use more then others for some strange reason. You should see me try to write German on my phone that's a pure nightmare. Yes I speak read and write in German too.

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The games rules creates the camping. That said, when an idiot actually is INSIDE an efms, that makes me feel like I am playing some sandbox fps. I'm sure we can all name names, I can add a couple that just did it to me, a couple that post here a lot. You do that you are no better than one of the yahoos who do it in other games. Made me leave the game. No interest in playing that. I'm sure others feel the same.  Until that is fixed I am seriously going to think about continuing my sub or not.

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