Mosizlak

Pan EZ mode sortie:

64 posts in this topic

44 minutes ago, delems said:

*** You mean like an M10? Le Gasp, who would do such a thing?

Hahahahah pretty funny, the m10 has an invisible shield over it - can't toss nades in, they bounce out.  Use to work, but no more.

How much you wanna bet right now nades will go in the PzJg I ?
 

Not sure where you getting numbers, but the DAC is twice as fast as the PzJg I, and I'll bet more silent.

 

No, dont hit the MG gunner and they wont bounce out.
Yea i know you can not see him when not deployed, but his physical presence is still there (or you could not hurt him)
Mo can show you where to land them, not that it does any good

But what they will do, and this goes for EVERYTHING!!!, is they go right out the bottom.
Try it with the 251, try it with any truck, try throwing one in the rear open hatch of an B1 or S35 or R35
Try it on the StuG.
Try it on the TCC laffly even

The grenade falls out the bottom, side effect i guess of the anti clipping stuff

PZJI? they will do the same thing, fall right out the bottom.
Only grenade that works currently for that is the axis rifle grenade and that is because it is contact fused.
Dont think you are allowed to nade your own teams units.

 

PZJI is about 20 25mph offroad speed
DAC, when they address a few things should maybe do 35mph offroad or so?
DAC 232 Panhard trucks all currently go too fast offroad, you and i both know a morris could not do 60 offroad unless it was falling over the cliffs at dover.
On road maybe, cross country, no, your bloody head would become one with the roof.

As far as sound goes, like i said, i can hear a DAC as easily as i can an Sdkfz 7 and at same range.
And in digital surround i can tell really well what direction they are.
We probably cant do anything really wonderful about that without a semi dedicated audio dev session.

Mind you i am not saying that there are not aspects of a tracked vehicle that are and should be more audible, but right now we dont have that.

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23 hours ago, monsjoex said:

You do know the only reason people use the panhard is because the stuart is not in and pretty much all other tanks are slow and blind right?

 

I don't give a chit why people say they use the Pan.

I know that it WILL kill enemy tanks with a broadside shot, over and over again until it's hit one time and dies. The trouble is that it's fast, has a 2lb gun on it and the Axis have NOTHING like it or the DAC.

Nothing.

Never have. 

22 hours ago, monsjoex said:

german grenadier should be removed until they fix the lethality :)

Nice try to pull this off topic.

<---- OT is that way.

 

Boo hoo German grenadier!!!! It's SO OP!!!! SIX YEARZZZOR!

Save it for Private Ryan. Nobody even USES the grenadier much. Leastways they are using them as much as Pans and DACs are used and THEY DON'T KILL EVERY PANZER WITH ONE BROADSIDE SHOT.

 

14 hours ago, lipton said:

Should we start comparing all tanks to all tanks again? There's nothing like the Tiger either. There's nothing like the Stug either. There's nothing like the ... and on and on and on ...... FFS this gets so f'n old. 

The S76 is comparable to the Tiger minus the range finder. That's the only real difference. Then again, you have an M10 that DOES have a range finder, and people are too impatient to learn how to tank with it.

 

The whole point is that the frigging Pan and DAC both can knock out enemy armor. I don't mean "some" enemy armor, I mean the Pan and DAC can KILL everything EXCEPT the Tiger. Even then, if you park behind a Tiger in a DAC you can disable the engine and MAYBE kill some crew.

The point is that the Axis have NOTHING in a scout car that has this capacity.

Nobody is comparing light tanks to medium tanks or heavy tanks.... we're saying that the SCOUT CARS aren't balanced and never have been.

That is indeed game-breaking. I'd love to be able to do 40-45km/h and knock out even an A13 with a scout car, but alas... there is no Axis scout car that can do that.

There is no need to compare, because there is NO comparison here.

 

No equivalent weapons platform.

 

Should we also mention that the Axis tanks are all grey or desert camo? Nothing like a driving a big grey rectangle around that's visible from 2000M... while your opponent is hull down and dark green... even the freaking ATGs are green except the French ones.

EVERY unit is GREY... Allied tanking is easymode in these regards. Fast moving Pans and DACs with actual ATGs mounted in them fighting GREY opponents.

 

 

Guys... really.

 

 

Merlin, I see you post all the time, and all you seem to do is take a contrary position to play debate club.

 

Here's an assignment: Go play DAC or Pan only for a campaign, or hell... a NIGHT. and see how you do compared to the 232.

We don't need your scholastic exercises and copy/paste comparisons. We need actual balancing here with the scout cars.

 

The Axis need a 234.

 

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the panny's already balanced by the excessive amount of low rank tanks and a extra main tank in the axis pool. that balancing gives axis way too much inf-killing power though. in the end the panny is working in axis favor

a better solution would be to lower the supply of pannies so other inf-killing tanks can be reduced without issue (2C/Vick/R35)

 

i swear merlin misses the point intentionally so he can go on and on more...

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50 minutes ago, vasduten1 said:

I don't give a chit why people say they use the Pan.

I know that it WILL kill enemy tanks with a broadside shot, over and over again until it's hit one time and dies. The trouble is that it's fast, has a 2lb gun on it and the Axis have NOTHING like it or the DAC.

Nothing.

Never have. 

Nice try to pull this off topic.

<---- OT is that way.

 

Boo hoo German grenadier!!!! It's SO OP!!!! SIX YEARZZZOR!

Save it for Private Ryan. Nobody even USES the grenadier much. Leastways they are using them as much as Pans and DACs are used and THEY DON'T KILL EVERY PANZER WITH ONE BROADSIDE SHOT.

 

The S76 is comparable to the Tiger minus the range finder. That's the only real difference. Then again, you have an M10 that DOES have a range finder, and people are too impatient to learn how to tank with it.

 

The whole point is that the frigging Pan and DAC both can knock out enemy armor. I don't mean "some" enemy armor, I mean the Pan and DAC can KILL everything EXCEPT the Tiger. Even then, if you park behind a Tiger in a DAC you can disable the engine and MAYBE kill some crew.

The point is that the Axis have NOTHING in a scout car that has this capacity.

Nobody is comparing light tanks to medium tanks or heavy tanks.... we're saying that the SCOUT CARS aren't balanced and never have been.

That is indeed game-breaking. I'd love to be able to do 40-45km/h and knock out even an A13 with a scout car, but alas... there is no Axis scout car that can do that.

There is no need to compare, because there is NO comparison here.

 

No equivalent weapons platform.

 

Should we also mention that the Axis tanks are all grey or desert camo? Nothing like a driving a big grey rectangle around that's visible from 2000M... while your opponent is hull down and dark green... even the freaking ATGs are green except the French ones.

EVERY unit is GREY... Allied tanking is easymode in these regards. Fast moving Pans and DACs with actual ATGs mounted in them fighting GREY opponents.

 

 

Guys... really.

 

 

Merlin, I see you post all the time, and all you seem to do is take a contrary position to play debate club.

 

Here's an assignment: Go play DAC or Pan only for a campaign, or hell... a NIGHT. and see how you do compared to the 232.

We don't need your scholastic exercises and copy/paste comparisons. We need actual balancing here with the scout cars.

 

The Axis need a 234.

 

Calm down Vas.. LOL

1. You are making mistakes. The Pan has a 25mm gun, not a 2 pdr. The Dac has a 2 pdr.

 

2. The BooHoo on the Axis grenadier..  Well, at least the Allies have not whined it out of existence like the Axis did the BEF grenadier. That's where the rubber meets the road.  Matter of fact, its going be even more lethal and in the process you're not going to be shooting them while inside a building, or down the stairwell anymore without a high probability of killing yourself. That should fix about 90% of the allied Axis grenadier whines. It was its shotgun effect that was not killing the shooter.. ITs not the fault of the Axis player this happens and its a fun weapon. Loved its attributes when I was axis and hell yah you exploit what you can.

 

3. The PAN penetrates about as much as the HISTORIC pak36 with a much much smaller round and with no HE exploder. The Pan is a precision weapon.. and yes it can get through 30mm of armor.  SA is great on it, however it does not kill every single Axis AFV.  90% of the time you are shooting multiple shots and its a ambush weapon. When the Axis get AP.40 they are going to need to adjust to precision shooting also. Its almost never a one and done.

 

4. Agree would love to have the PUMA (fk you merlin its  a PUMA - LOL jks)  along with the AEC and Greyhound - they would be fun additions to the game.

 

5. Grey tanks are not as easy to spot as you say, however that's their historic color for the early German tanks - I see the French T0 tanks much much easier than I do the Axis grey ones so I'm not exactly sure what you are going on about there.

 

6. S76 - decent AFV, however its not a Tiger, not even close.

 

7. Dacs killing Tigers - possible and I have rolled up on them in the game many times and have tried to kill them.. I have yet to do so, so you are taking an EXTRAORDINARY and very rare condition and talking like its common place. I know it can be done, I have done it on the training server but that's not combat.  You know you can kill a CH7 with a 109 E1 - all you have to do is get a bullet down the hatch, its possible and it has happened in this game however it does not make the E1 a tank buster. That might not be the best comparison but it illustrates the difficulty.

 

8. You brought this up, but you DO have a Scout Car that can kill the A13 - its called the 232 and the AP will shred the A13 from the rear and flank.  I personally have taken out 3 A13s on a single sortie with a 232. I have also taken them out with the 2C. 

 

9. The M10 - people are too impatient in them.. I tank and do pretty well in the M10. Love it matter of fact.  You DO have to be patient, its a ambush weapon for the most part. It was never meant to be a MBT. HOWEVER the run of the mill tanker is impatient no matter what AFV they are in.. and that includes the Matty and Tiger drivers. Its a universal condition of the playerbase. Even good tankers get impatient at times. Sometimes you are doing everything right but you get hit and die by something you did not see. You cannot dictate a weapons performance based off of the people who drive them. We have some tankers in this game who can make some tanks seem way over powered totally upsetting the bell curve. You have to dictate a weapons value on its attributes.. I E speed, ammo, armor, sites, gun.

 

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1 hour ago, major0noob said:

the panny's already balanced by the excessive amount of low rank tanks and a extra main tank in the axis pool. that balancing gives axis way too much inf-killing power though. in the end the panny is working in axis favor

a better solution would be to lower the supply of pannies so other inf-killing tanks can be reduced without issue (2C/Vick/R35)

 

i swear merlin misses the point intentionally so he can go on and on more...

Nah, it's not. it carries an ATG. a 25MM as Stanky points out. 

Doesn't matter... it has an ATG on it and the 232 does NOT.

 

Yeah, Merlin ust deliberately miss the point just to go on.

 

36 minutes ago, stankyus said:

Calm down Vas.. LOL

1. You are making mistakes. The Pan has a 25mm gun, not a 2 pdr. The Dac has a 2 pdr.

 

2. The BooHoo on the Axis grenadier..  Well, at least the Allies have not whined it out of existence like the Axis did the BEF grenadier. That's where the rubber meets the road.  Matter of fact, its going be even more lethal and in the process you're not going to be shooting them while inside a building, or down the stairwell anymore without a high probability of killing yourself. That should fix about 90% of the allied Axis grenadier whines. It was its shotgun effect that was not killing the shooter.. ITs not the fault of the Axis player this happens and its a fun weapon. Loved its attributes when I was axis and hell yah you exploit what you can.

 

3. The PAN penetrates about as much as the HISTORIC pak36 with a much much smaller round and with no HE exploder. The Pan is a precision weapon.. and yes it can get through 30mm of armor.  SA is great on it, however it does not kill every single Axis AFV.  90% of the time you are shooting multiple shots and its a ambush weapon. When the Axis get AP.40 they are going to need to adjust to precision shooting also. Its almost never a one and done.

 

4. Agree would love to have the PUMA (fk you merlin its  a PUMA - LOL jks)  along with the AEC and Greyhound - they would be fun additions to the game.

 

5. Grey tanks are not as easy to spot as you say, however that's their historic color for the early German tanks - I see the French T0 tanks much much easier than I do the Axis grey ones so I'm not exactly sure what you are going on about there.

 

6. S76 - decent AFV, however its not a Tiger, not even close.

 

7. Dacs killing Tigers - possible and I have rolled up on them in the game many times and have tried to kill them.. I have yet to do so, so you are taking an EXTRAORDINARY and very rare condition and talking like its common place. I know it can be done, I have done it on the training server but that's not combat.  You know you can kill a CH7 with a 109 E1 - all you have to do is get a bullet down the hatch, its possible and it has happened in this game however it does not make the E1 a tank buster. That might not be the best comparison but it illustrates the difficulty.

 

8. You brought this up, but you DO have a Scout Car that can kill the A13 - its called the 232 and the AP will shred the A13 from the rear and flank.  I personally have taken out 3 A13s on a single sortie with a 232. I have also taken them out with the 2C. 

 

9. The M10 - people are too impatient in them.. I tank and do pretty well in the M10. Love it matter of fact.  You DO have to be patient, its a ambush weapon for the most part. It was never meant to be a MBT. HOWEVER the run of the mill tanker is impatient no matter what AFV they are in.. and that includes the Matty and Tiger drivers. Its a universal condition of the playerbase. Even good tankers get impatient at times. Sometimes you are doing everything right but you get hit and die by something you did not see. You cannot dictate a weapons performance based off of the people who drive them. We have some tankers in this game who can make some tanks seem way over powered totally upsetting the bell curve. You have to dictate a weapons value on its attributes.. I E speed, ammo, armor, sites, gun.

 

1: Fine... a 25MM and not a 2lb er. It's STILL an ATG, and still can kill heavier armor than it is... unlike the 232. I just took one out an hour ago for the first time in months and got 8 kills... two of which were panzers. Both blew up or flamed because I sent a round into the kill spot. The 232 cannot do that.

2: Who cares? It's a thread about the Pan. The Pan IS EZMode. No skirting that, even with artful Axis grenadier comments. I don't care... The Allied Grenadier was taken out because it KILLED TANKS. The Axis never had that capability either. Another case of non-balance and then removing the offending unit to balance things until it could be re-worked.

3: As long as you aim for the SAME KILL SPOT in EVERY Axis tank... you are doing damage and killing Axis tanks. The 25MM is historically accurate? Fine. Stick a 234 in with an ATG and we'll call it a day.

4: Got to balance the early tier scout cars... then I don't care what is added.

5: That's subjective as my argument was. I have no trouble spotting Axis tanks, but routinely get flamed in a 3F by a "hiding" A13. Then I go to look for it as inf and have to search for the one odd patch of green amidst a sea of similar shades of green. Axis ain't got no green anything.

6: It isn't far off... neither is the M10. Both of which when used like a Tiger at range do some serious damage. Sloped armor... blah blah... a great gun. The Tiger is NOT OP since you can hit the gun manlet anywhere and disable the gun.

7: I said that... it can be done but isn't routinely done. We're not talking about DACs v Tigers.. we're talking about scout cars and relative counterparts, of which there are NONE on the Axis spawn list.

8: Right... the one tank everyone complains incessantly about on the Allied spawn list that behaves like EVERY Axis Panzer except the Stug and Tiger. Big deal. It's a death wish to search out Allied armor in a 232 and you know it. Definitely better odds in a Pan or DAC.

9: I love the M10, and do better in that than the S76. Not the topic of discussion and I digressed there.

 

 

The Axis need a counterpart to the Pan. Let's just stay with that and not discuss the DAC. We have nothing that can do what the Pan can do. Speed, agility and a good ATG. Not so in a 232. The 20MM walks all over the place and stinks... it's no different than having an AA gun on a cheap metal box with 6 wheels. One that flips over at the slightest turn in 3rd gear.

 

Nope. No comparison at all.

 

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57 minutes ago, vasduten1 said:

Nah, it's not. it carries an ATG. a 25MM as Stanky points out. 

Doesn't matter... it has an ATG on it and the 232 does NOT.

 

Yeah, Merlin ust deliberately miss the point just to go on.

 

1: Fine... a 25MM and not a 2lb er. It's STILL an ATG, and still can kill heavier armor than it is... unlike the 232. I just took one out an hour ago for the first time in months and got 8 kills... two of which were panzers. Both blew up or flamed because I sent a round into the kill spot. The 232 cannot do that.

2: Who cares? It's a thread about the Pan. The Pan IS EZMode. No skirting that, even with artful Axis grenadier comments. I don't care... The Allied Grenadier was taken out because it KILLED TANKS. The Axis never had that capability either. Another case of non-balance and then removing the offending unit to balance things until it could be re-worked.

3: As long as you aim for the SAME KILL SPOT in EVERY Axis tank... you are doing damage and killing Axis tanks. The 25MM is historically accurate? Fine. Stick a 234 in with an ATG and we'll call it a day.

4: Got to balance the early tier scout cars... then I don't care what is added.

5: That's subjective as my argument was. I have no trouble spotting Axis tanks, but routinely get flamed in a 3F by a "hiding" A13. Then I go to look for it as inf and have to search for the one odd patch of green amidst a sea of similar shades of green. Axis ain't got no green anything.

6: It isn't far off... neither is the M10. Both of which when used like a Tiger at range do some serious damage. Sloped armor... blah blah... a great gun. The Tiger is NOT OP since you can hit the gun manlet anywhere and disable the gun.

7: I said that... it can be done but isn't routinely done. We're not talking about DACs v Tigers.. we're talking about scout cars and relative counterparts, of which there are NONE on the Axis spawn list.

8: Right... the one tank everyone complains incessantly about on the Allied spawn list that behaves like EVERY Axis Panzer except the Stug and Tiger. Big deal. It's a death wish to search out Allied armor in a 232 and you know it. Definitely better odds in a Pan or DAC.

9: I love the M10, and do better in that than the S76. Not the topic of discussion and I digressed there.

 

 

The Axis need a counterpart to the Pan. Let's just stay with that and not discuss the DAC. We have nothing that can do what the Pan can do. Speed, agility and a good ATG. Not so in a 232. The 20MM walks all over the place and stinks... it's no different than having an AA gun on a cheap metal box with 6 wheels. One that flips over at the slightest turn in 3rd gear.

 

Nope. No comparison at all.

 

Ok then lets cut through the BS, you brought up all the points I answered too now you disregard. Its hard to have a conversation if your intent is to disregard counterpoints and agreements.  Your beef is with the PAN, stick with the Pan then and keep the other BS out of the conversation. You still don't get it, however the Pans gun is still not a one and done shoot the same place sure but you get varying results. Yes you have to shoot the critical areas, all AFVs have to shoot critical areas to achieve the kill. Just some have more forgiveness than others. Heavier guns, better penetrating guns and rounds with APHE are much more forgiving than straight AP and seriously more forgiving than small AP like the 25mm.  So there is no harm, no foul getting a good shot that hits the ammo or sets the tank on fire with one shot but its never a given you are going to be successful.  The PAN has its good qualities no doubt.  The Axis would like a Pan type scout car - I completely understand. I am also one who does not say no very often to new toys and gap fillers like a Axis scout car for AT work..

 

One problem, the Axis did not have a scout car for AT work that would fit into T-0. We could warp one with the 75mm L/24, I guess but what you are looking for AFIK does not exist until much later with the PUMA.  I am interested in hearing your suggestion.  The PUMA is truly a later tiered scout car, I'm not sure how you get around that.

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I've played both sides...While the Pan is pretty fun and efficient, to be fair an enemy ATR can usually take it out with ease.....

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3 hours ago, vasduten1 said:

Merlin, I see you post all the time, and all you seem to do is take a contrary position to play debate club.

?  no, i just think you fail to read beyond 2 sentences
neither you nor n00b really  have any idea of what i said
 

1 hour ago, vasduten1 said:

Fine. Stick a 234 in with an ATG and we'll call it a day.

234 T3,  233 T2, 232 T0 - T1
Unless you want to start ceding things like a 1943 SMG forever living in T0 etc or a 1942 Tiger I forever fighting a 1944 Sherman M4A3 76 mm

 

 or what ever else someone wants to argue they need time warped. there is no better T0 option for an axis scout car, But there are T0 things that are valid for the axis that no one else really has.

Panzerjager I is one of those, a very tiny nimble little TD in T0 with good ammo capacity and really good penetration, Sturmpanzer I will be another one, nice compact SP artillery piece capable of delivering HE and Smoke of a decent caliber.

Should those be scrapped because the best france can muster in that size package is an FT 75 BS that moves at a whopping 6 mph and has a stubby 75mm cannon that makes the B1's 75mm look like a saturn IV rocket launcher, And the best England can offer in that area is a really nice cup of tea?

 

4 hours ago, vasduten1 said:

we're saying that the SCOUT CARS aren't balanced and never have been.

And they never ever will be, nothing will be really if you simply look at it tit for tat
The brits will eventually put a 6pdr in a scout car with the AEC MK II that the 234 does not really compete with on a by the numbers basis.
The US and French will only field 37mm and 47mm respectively, which the 234 stands on good ground with, but the brits will way out shoot it.

What do you want to do? go ripping units out?
You do that and someone will use the same tactics on you to make sure you never get a panther or tiger II or jagdtiger or jagdpanther or whatever unit they feel is too much better than theirs is.

3 hours ago, vasduten1 said:

The Tiger is NOT OP since you can hit the gun manlet anywhere and disable the gun.

Tiger is not OP simply because the tiger is what it is, it performs how it should within the constraints of the game program and isn't doing anything to a capacity beyond what it should.
The rest of your statement there is BS and you know it, 400 rounds i put into the gun mantlet at 250m with no effect to the gun function and you very well know it. 
Why are you of all people going to hop on that bandwagon?
 

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2 hours ago, Pittpete said:

I've played both sides...While the Pan is pretty fun and efficient, to be fair an enemy ATR can usually take it out with ease.....

...and both sides get ATRs that work the same and have the same relative effectiveness. 

4 hours ago, stankyus said:

Ok then lets cut through the BS, you brought up all the points I answered too now you disregard. Its hard to have a conversation if your intent is to disregard counterpoints and agreements.  Your beef is with the PAN, stick with the Pan then and keep the other BS out of the conversation. You still don't get it, however the Pans gun is still not a one and done shoot the same place sure but you get varying results. Yes you have to shoot the critical areas, all AFVs have to shoot critical areas to achieve the kill. Just some have more forgiveness than others. Heavier guns, better penetrating guns and rounds with APHE are much more forgiving than straight AP and seriously more forgiving than small AP like the 25mm.  So there is no harm, no foul getting a good shot that hits the ammo or sets the tank on fire with one shot but its never a given you are going to be successful.  The PAN has its good qualities no doubt.  The Axis would like a Pan type scout car - I completely understand. I am also one who does not say no very often to new toys and gap fillers like a Axis scout car for AT work..

 

One problem, the Axis did not have a scout car for AT work that would fit into T-0. We could warp one with the 75mm L/24, I guess but what you are looking for AFIK does not exist until much later with the PUMA.  I am interested in hearing your suggestion.  The PUMA is truly a later tiered scout car, I'm not sure how you get around that.

Fine. I was digressing, and I said that.

So the Allies had the Panhard in tier 0 years, and the Axis had nothing.

*cough*everyone uses HEAT satchels that just plain never existed but were based on an Axis placed charge for tanks.*cough*

 

What can we do to balance the Pan out?

Sure, it's not a one-shot kill all the time, but the 20MM on the 232 and 2C is a joke to tanks. Wow, we can make the engine smoke in light tanks and we can kill a Pan or Vickers, but the gun climbs as you shoot, even though it's mounted on a frigging LAV. Why? It shouldn't, but that's another topic for another day.

 

We could have a 222 with the PzGr 40 AP ammo... That would be comparable and NOT on an 8 wheeled rollover chassis.

p1.jpg

 

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Vas not arguing that the Axis side shouldnt have an equivalent to the Pan/Dac......You know as well as i do it's easier to take out lower tier Axis tanks with an ATR than Allied ones.

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Time warp the 233 to tier 0/1 maybe, but even that isn't no pan/dac.  If the grease gun can, the 233 can.

234/2 is even later tiered than the 233, and a different model, the 233 is basically done, cept maybe the superstructure.

As for giving special ammo to the 232, in limited quantities, idk, could work.  Guess would have to see how it 'panned' out, LOL.

No problem giving brits their HEAT grenadier back; give them 5; but take 5 sappers out of their list, why is that so hard?

The DAC easily kills the Tiger, up by Helle a DAC rolled right out and flanked 2 Tigers, both blew in seconds, saw it myself; I was even yelling DAC left, no use.

 

Edited by delems
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1 hour ago, vasduten1 said:

We could have a 222 with the PzGr 40 AP ammo...

I got no gripe if you really wanted that, but i am not sure you would really like it?  I Don't think it is what you are looking for?
That gun on it that you are looking at is just a 2 cm KwK 30 L/55 autocannon, even with PzGr40 i dont think it is going to give you what you are hoping for?

The units that you would find it effective on are not in game yet, all the light T0 british tanks like the A9 A10 and Tetrarch with their tinfoil armor, and the light lesser known T0 french tanks like the AMR 33 / 35 with its monster 13mm of armor and the AMC 35 with its 25mm of armor

It (the 222) is still basically a Flack 30 on wheels, same as the 232, and the PZ IIc
Even the late switch to the KwK 38 on the PZII did little but increase firing rate

Neither the 222 232 nor the PZ II ausf C were actually designed to kill tanks very well or at all.

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1 hour ago, merlin51 said:


Neither the 222 232 nor the PZ II ausf C were actually designed to kill tanks very well or at all.

...and neither were the DAC or Panhard.

They were recon vehicles and not generally involved with duking it out with tanks.

Not by a long shot.

 

So why are there rolling ATGs on one side and none on the other but the grease gun can make an appearance?

 

 

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Just now, vasduten1 said:

They were recon vehicles and not generally involved with duking it out with tanks.

Not by a long shot.

You are correct.
People don't really die here so general stupidity is generally forgiven and you get to respawn and maybe get a reward out of the deal.

The DAC and Panhard are "Technically" more suited to go play mister suicidal
The DAC  more so, the panhard has the same gun as the little ATG the allies spawn from the FM, not much of a threat except when it is close and flanking.
DAC on the other hand the brits put a 2pdr in, why? ive no idea, they had a thing for 2pdrs i guess.

I kind of doubt too many of them went shooting at tanks though.
I doubt many 232s when shooting at stuff either unless it had to, seeing that all of the above is easily taken out with any infantry carried item that shoots AP of most any caliber.

You want to see something done that makes scout cars better, 1 you could be a proponent of getting the physics reworked, specifically the friction, and apply it to trucks too.
Because you i and grandma moses all know that no one pops a 7 ton vehicle in neutral kills the engine and coasts up to 2km across raw terrain at near max on road speed.
Not a DAC not a Pan not a 232 not an Opel and definitely not a Morris. 
Do that and as a side benefit the 232 wont flip and spin out.
They will all lose speed off road, but they all need to, they go too fast off to road, they need to behave like the tanks do, losing a good deal of speed off road.

2 come up with some workable idea for a mechanic that makes the scout car more valuable if it DOESNT shoot anything.
Something where it can be a scout car, but does not require 18 months of dev time, maybe a range finder like function that instead auto marks the unit on the map
in its exact location, unit type and direction of travel. and using it requires car deployed.
And firing the gun causes a 5min cool down before redeploying again. (Is auto marking yourself on enemies map too vindictive?)
maybe not in the realm of doable, just an idea

But some person at some point is always going to go wander off and do his own thing and ignore the fact that sane people don't go rolling off to play tank fighter in a tin can.
You can't address that with time warping, because then where does it end? We already have 2 that have to be corrected at a point.
Not to mention the brits as i said eventually go and out do everyone on the scout car scene by dumping a 6pdr on top of one, for what reason i have no idea, but that event is the pinnacle of the scout car story, neither the axis, the US nor the french venture to go that baty with them.

You can hinder it though by revising the physics to impose a more sane and realistic manner of running about the countryside with them.

57 minutes ago, vasduten1 said:

So why are there rolling ATGs on one side and none on the other but the grease gun can make an appearance?

It can't, i'd have never put it in T0 beyond 1 camp when it was first released just to show it off maybe, maybe.
That was someone else's decision and they arent here to flog for it anymore
It has to go home, even the rats acknowledged that it has to go home to its respective tier, preferably the very second the mas and mp34 have their problematic issues resolved.
Mister Sten has to go home to tier 2.
M4A3 will eventually have to go home to T4 (when there are other T4 units to go with) and mister Tiger I will need to move backwards to T2.

And you will get rolling ATG's for T0
PZJI maybe does not have wheels instead of tracks, but it's a bad little beastie with that 47mm and that same little package will also become the sturmpanzer, also T0.
And i think those may be just awaiting a trip through creator? Didnt you volunteer to help with that?
 

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On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 10:38 AM, major0noob said:

 

there were 15min between itsbrad's deaths, he did ok. it was also an hour long sortie, enough time for a panny to flank to the next town and back

 

why is it soo hard to admit the panny is a super stealthy tank?

i know it's "meant" to be a "light reconnaissance system platform..." but the in-game reality is: its a very frustrating enemy to fight. no fun for the axis to play with

Sounds like the same [censored] we have with the 232

 

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22 hours ago, vasduten1 said:

...and both sides get ATRs that work the same and have the same relative effectiveness. 

Fine. I was digressing, and I said that.

So the Allies had the Panhard in tier 0 years, and the Axis had nothing.

*cough*everyone uses HEAT satchels that just plain never existed but were based on an Axis placed charge for tanks.*cough*

 

What can we do to balance the Pan out?

Sure, it's not a one-shot kill all the time, but the 20MM on the 232 and 2C is a joke to tanks. Wow, we can make the engine smoke in light tanks and we can kill a Pan or Vickers, but the gun climbs as you shoot, even though it's mounted on a frigging LAV. Why? It shouldn't, but that's another topic for another day.

 

We could have a 222 with the PzGr 40 AP ammo... That would be comparable and NOT on an 8 wheeled rollover chassis.

p1.jpg

 

All for getting new stuff and as it stands it seems as if AP.40 is already slated for entrance along with many historical ammo types. The gun on this could also be elevated for AA work.  BECAUSE I somewhat expect AP.40 to be issued to the 2c and 232, the new vehicle would be more of a added content rather than adding it to fill a position not currently filled.  Merlin says that its not really what you would be looking for... I tend to agree to a point but the 20mm AP.40 at close range most certainly cut through armor at a rapid rate and possibly in the end be far more deadly than the PAN for close in ambush. Certainly at the ranges that the PAN can be successful with and quite a bit better penetration -  S35 killer even Shermans.

 

Conversely I must point out that with the advent of a Axis auto cannon firing AP.40 there should be little to zero resistance to the French getting the AP ammo for the MLE38  it fired and somewhere down the pipe the 6pdr auto cannon for AT work.

 

I guess it really comes down to how the PB will except auto cannons being used for AT work and if overall if its good for the game. I really do not know, but I do hope that ammo load outs should be what they where with limits on availability.

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On 11/6/2017 at 11:08 PM, merlin51 said:

 

The DAC and Panhard are "Technically" more suited to go play mister suicidal
The DAC  more so, the panhard has the same gun as the little ATG the allies spawn from the FM, not much of a threat except when it is close and flanking.
DAC on the other hand the brits put a 2pdr in, why? ive no idea, they had a thing for 2pdrs i guess.

 

Technicalities like this don't detract from it's role as a tank killing ambush machine; only enhance that -for a role it never played.

 

We all know that if it CAN be done in the game world, it WILL be done. Nobody ever ran up a broken wall 30ft high and balanced on it to shoot infantry, either... but they do in this game.

I'm not looking for historical accuracy though, just a fair counterpart since the Pan can glide along in neutral and one shot splode medium to heavy Panzers if the "spot" is hit. I've done it so many times.

 

Speaking of the "one shot splode" animation... that has to go or be reduced in occurence so that tanks aren't exploding all over the place unless high explosives are used, and then with mines or bombs... or 155MM stuff.

 

Remember when tanks used to burn up instead? That was cool. 

 

These days in the A13,the Vickers and most Panzers, you roll out of the AB walled area and go "BOOM!" as soon as an AP round sinks into your rear or side.

Why? Because a 25MM AP round went into the engine, ammo cache or fuel tanks?

The whole tank explodes and the turret flies off?

I realize this was an added feature... but come on.

 

When it happens to you in any Panzer excepting the Tiger, in ALL tiers and to a Panhard... well... it gets really old; quickly.

 

15 hours ago, imded said:

Sounds like the same [censored] we have with the 232

 

Oh really?

I can't remember the last time I saw a 232 roll out and flank -then glide to a stop and clear 3-4 enemy tanks from an entire quadrant of a town being attacked.

At most, it rolls out, kills a handful of EI before being KILLED BY A RIFLE or LMG.

 

Come on, man... what are you saying? That the 232 is a major pain in the arse to the Allies?!?

 

Maybe it is so comical that you may hurt your sides from laughing so hard about it going tits over arse and ending up on it's side.... or that it plinked an A13 and then was cleared of living crew by an LMG?

 

Whatever you're smoking, I want some.

 

The herb I have is a sativa though... and less dopey than the indicas. Maybe switch to that and have less reality-bending perceptions?

 

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What gives the Pan/DAC their effectiveness is their sound. The sound was deliberately made quiet by the previous team; they pulled all sorts of undocumented balancing stuff like making trucks extremely loud. The current team is either not wise to the problem or just willfully playing dumb about the sound. Unrealistic engine noise isn't as easy to demonstrate as a truck being able to coast for 5km.

 

Some armored car is such a sore spot because armor is the dominant force in this game. Armor is everywhere and the #1 defense. Neither the devs nor the remaining playerbase can decide if they want armor to be countered by ATGs, or countered by other armor. So a panhard taking out a few tanks is a big deal.

 

 

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1 hour ago, david01 said:

What gives the Pan/DAC their effectiveness is their sound. The sound was deliberately made quiet by the previous team; they pulled all sorts of undocumented balancing stuff like making trucks extremely loud. The current team is either not wise to the problem or just willfully playing dumb about the sound. Unrealistic engine noise isn't as easy to demonstrate as a truck being able to coast for 5km.

 

Some armored car is such a sore spot because armor is the dominant force in this game. Armor is everywhere and the #1 defense. Neither the devs nor the remaining playerbase can decide if they want armor to be countered by ATGs, or countered by other armor. So a panhard taking out a few tanks is a big deal.

 

 

Axis having super fast MG's on their tanks compared to allied is also a big deal. Dont hear many complaining about that.

You're all acting like the panhard kills 50% of axis armor, just like with the british grenadier. Hope you dont get your nerfs this time.

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31 minutes ago, monsjoex said:

Axis having super fast MG's on their tanks compared to allied is also a big deal. Dont hear many complaining about that.

You're all acting like the panhard kills 50% of axis armor, just like with the british grenadier. Hope you dont get your nerfs this time.

Really? The 3F has a triple MG. Big deal.

 

Nobody said the Panhard kills 50% of armor over the span of a campaign, but it is capable of killing everything except the Tiger, that's 90% of Axis tanks.

What tanks can the 232 kill? I mean ill the gunner...

 

The Vickers?

 

That's more than lop-sided.

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1 hour ago, vasduten1 said:

Really? The 3F has a triple MG. Big deal.

 

Nobody said the Panhard kills 50% of armor over the span of a campaign, but it is capable of killing everything except the Tiger, that's 90% of Axis tanks.

What tanks can the 232 kill? I mean ill the gunner...

 

The Vickers?

 

That's more than lop-sided.

Why are people constantly comparing it to the 232? As you say its a completely different unit that's more comparable to the vickers. What axis unit is comparable to the R35? Dont hear us complaining about it.

Our supply list is considerably reduced because we have the panhard in it. And theres only like 3 available in an inf brg. Big whooping deal.

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1 hour ago, monsjoex said:

Axis having super fast MG's on their tanks compared to allied is also a big deal. Dont hear many complaining about that.

You're all acting like the panhard kills 50% of axis armor, just like with the british grenadier. Hope you dont get your nerfs this time.

The only time the faster MGs make a difference is when you're camping from farther away. Most camping is done <100m. Guys last campaign had 100+ kill streaks so how many kills do you think the allied tanker loses due to a slower ROF?

 

Having a counter that you can spawn and ambush those first few tanks on an attack means everything. So much armor is killed in the spawn, or right out of the spawn that total numbers don't mean much. Your argument reminds me of the allied pilots claiming that being able to nuke tanks with .50 cal didn't affect gameplay because only a minority of tanks were killed by fighters. On a related note axis was able to get the allied tanker mafia to scream bloody murder because we'd get infantry to camp the AB with schrecks. Those first few tanks at a battle mean a lot. Hence AT infantry being scaled backed and  nearly eliminated from the game despite all that dev effort to model new weapons.

 

Like I said this armored car thing is a big deal because armor is everything in this game. If it was structured that ATGs could reliable counter armor, or air could counter armor, or that infantry could counter armor then it wouldn't be a big deal.

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3 hours ago, david01 said:

What gives the Pan/DAC their effectiveness is their sound. The sound was deliberately made quiet by the previous team; they pulled all sorts of undocumented balancing stuff like making trucks extremely loud. The current team is either not wise to the problem or just willfully playing dumb about the sound. 

Their sound?
I can hear a DAC, a Panhard, a 232, an opel, a laffly, a morris, a tiger, a R35 etc perfectly fine and all from the same distance
1.8km, the distance sound magically appears.
If there is a complaint to be raised there, it is that i can hear them all much too well.

The reason you get snuck up on by trucks and scout cars is they ALL turn off their engines, at which point they do have 0 sound, and coast for 2km through the woods.
And that happens with every vehicle in game with tires.
The fix for that is global.

 

2 hours ago, monsjoex said:

Axis having super fast MG's on their tanks compared to allied is also a big deal.

Not really, it's mostly only useful for a long range camp because you can traverse faster without causing wide bullet dispersion, but you cant camp from farther than 700m anyways
because infantry dont render. You also run out of ammo faster.
It's different but it's really not a big deal

 

2 hours ago, vasduten1 said:

Nobody said the Panhard kills 50% of armor over the span of a campaign, but it is capable of killing everything except the Tiger

While that is kind of true. put it in proper context.
Its firing the same gun as the MLE 1934 baby ATG, has the same penetration data, same ranges etc.
If you have used it, which im sure Vas has, you already know it is an up close and personal, aim for the flank ATR points.
Distance is your enemy, frontal is your enemy, angles are your enemy.

So the pan is probably under 200m from your spawn, right?
The only real problem here is that he probably got there by coasting through the ardennes forest with his engine turned off, otherwise someone would have walked over and sapped him.

2 hours ago, vasduten1 said:

What tanks can the 232 kill

Well, vickers like you said
A13 actually, but you do need to know the A13's armor make up so you know where to shoot.
On occasion an R35, but i cant swear that it isnt actually a scoring bug, or possible slight HE spam bug leftover. tank is 42mm on the majority of it and the penetration is only 20mm max
But no, it does not kill many of the allied tanks CURRENTLY in game, the 20mm gun is kind of ill suited to armored combat, at least with what we currently have.

Thats kind of a different discussion, but it is a fault of the whole original release fiasco with everything forced and rushed
That list of equipment i kinda teasingly gave you in the other thread, a lot of that is engageable and outright killable with the 232 and PZIIc and PAK36, and should have been 
Tier 0,      now past Tier 0 it's effectiveness VS higher tier AFV's goes down in the toilet.

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1 hour ago, monsjoex said:

Why are people constantly comparing it to the 232? As you say its a completely different unit that's more comparable to the vickers. What axis unit is comparable to the R35? Dont hear us complaining about it.

Our supply list is considerably reduced because we have the panhard in it. And theres only like 3 available in an inf brg. Big whooping deal.

...and yet you brought up MGs being faster. 

I did not suggest that if an Axis variant came in that was in the same class that spawn lists wouldn't have to be adjusted to compensate.

That would be a wise move. 

It doesn't matter how many are in a flag -there is nothing that moves so quickly with an ATG like it in the Axis spawn list. It's really good at "scouting" when you can take one for a spin quickly around a town and wreck multiple medium tanks.

 

All I'm saying is that there is an obvious disparity with scout cars.

 

I find the Vickers to be equal to the 2C all considered. The 38t, 3F, Stug, 3H, Stug G, Pxr4H all can be one shotted by a Panhard. I've done it more times than I like to admit. It feels dirty but it's also really fun. I've caused a lot of carnage, and I'm not even a great tanker.

Surely, you can see there needs to be an equivalent for the Axis?

 

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Anyone who argues that the 232 is comparable to the DAC has no substantive evidence. The data of the game proves time and again that the DAC has 1.0 or better K/D ratios against fully armored tanks in the game. Yes, K/Ds aren't everything, but they are the best point of comparison we have, and are worlds better than the stories the Anecdote Brigade like to roll out.

The data shows the DAC has 1.0+ K/D to everything that isn't a 4G, 3G, or a Tiger. The data shows that the Panhard is significantly worse in comparison. The data shows that the 232 is so bad it isn't even worth comparing. Check for yourself. You can, it's on the stats website. Just do equipment comparisons. You can also check out my thread http://forums.wwiionline.com/forums/topic/414137-allied-vs-axis-armor-kd-analysis/

 

No amount of "Equipment X can theoretically do Y for Z reasons" outweighs the fact that a single Allied armored car can single-handedly fight much more heavily-armed vehicles. That is an imbalance.

Then comes the question if it is an acceptable historical imbalance. WWIIOL is a Historical Accuracy Simulator. It emulates the Asymmetrical Warfare of the time period. That's why Allies get Matilda and the Axis gets the 88 and Tigers.

In my personal opinion, it's too imbalanced at this stage. However, I don't know what the KE audit will do to it, and I also don't know what the introduction of more armored vehicles will do, especially that there's a lot of movement on vehicle variants that @scotsman has been talking about. The Axis will likely get a counterpart to the DAC, although it won't match the tier.

Just own up to the lack of equivalents, people. No equivalent to the Matty or Char, no equivalent to the DAC, no equivalent to the 88mm, no equivalent to the S76, no equivalent to the Tiger. You can argue anecdotes all day long, but the loadouts and the data will disagree. And for a lot of that, that's acceptable for WWIIOL; we just need to figure out how to balance it despite the lack of equivalents.

Edited by chaoswzkd
Phone typos
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