Blkhwk8

1.36 Vital Questions

226 posts in this topic

6 hours ago, david01 said:

It's just assumed that with little pockets of supply called "garrisons" added to the game suddenly brigade and AO management for an entire faction will something enjoyable that lots of people will want to do in their free time.

Actually if you look at the responses and communication given from the Rats, the Garrison Supply will be the main stay of the supply, the Flags will be much smaller and movement can be used to continue strategic play with out being a disaster if they are not moved by HC during times when they are not present. 

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1 hour ago, blkhwk8 said:

Actually if you look at the responses and communication given from the Rats, the Garrison Supply will be the main stay of the supply, the Flags will be much smaller and movement can be used to continue strategic play with out being a disaster if they are not moved by HC during times when they are not present. 

That's the stated intent but that's not how it's going to work out in reality. One side is still going to be at a disadvantage when they don't have HC or experienced HC online, and HC is still going to be an unenjoyable 2nd job. "Not being a disaster" is very subjective criteria.

 

Are players still going to get grief for not properly matching flag movements, placing wrong AOs, and logging off instead of taking map? Yes they are, and I predict that the contemptuous attitude towards players that don't want to "step up" and join HC is actually going to get worse.

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Kinda making assumptions without more detail is pointless. If there are only say 4 flags with HQ level supply in it, how is that going to affect HC matching moves, I would more be worried about playerbase burning thru supply as you wont have flag movement and rotation to fix attrition effort. 

There are dedicated HC that dont mind the strategic part of the game, what happened was these people would burn out this helps elevate that stress while maintaining a strategic layer in the game which may help win certain battles, but not the entire war.

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I'll post this in here to get a few more eyes and some feedback

iBjZZYr.jpg

n a nutshell Brigades/KG's are used to speed up resupply in a frontline town. The frontline town must be an AO or a DO. They don't contain any actual supply.

Example: 10 panzers are spawned for an attack and are all destroyed. The time it would take to have those 10 panzers resupplied has decreased by half lets say. Same goes for the defenders of a frontline town with a linked Brigade/KG.

Rear FBs are opened to any frontline town with an AO/DO to allow manual overstocking from a rear linked town or if frontline town is camped.

If a town is captured then the rear town becomes the new frontline town and if it's still linked to a Brigade/KG then resupply is accelerated. The rear town doesnt automatically start with a fresh new supply list.

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Easy way to solve the HC moves flags, how much supply do they get problem... is don't have them first iteration.

Map is just town supply.

BUT, give squads their own platoon supply (about 51 troops), run by CO or maybe XOs.

This in no way that will upset a battle between to towns each with 500+ some troops in it.

OR

Go very few system flags, say 2 to 4.

 

rats have to figure out how to populate the town supply.  A simple 1 for 1 AB, 2 for 2 ABs won't work imo.  Need different ratio.

Then, the flags have to be some ratio of that.  Should it be equal to 1 AB town?  or 1/2?  or 1/3?
 

Very first thing to figure out is ratio of supply based in towns. (maybe 2 for 1 AB, 3 for 2 AB, etc.)

Then, figure out how many system flags there will be, and at what ratio.  Clearly, this ratio should be low - or the TOE (and problems) will dominate game again.

Finally, giving squads their own little platoon flag will provide lots of incentive for squads to do their own thing and grow.

 

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59 minutes ago, delems said:

Go very few system flags, say 2 to 4

Id say more than that, but way way less than what we have. No where near enough flags to even cover the front.
And change flags from brigades to representations of specialized units. Could even be named after real life counterparts.
Have flags have their own per unit unique TOE, but ver ver low supply amounts overall.

Example, T0 problem of the matilda 2
Its too unbalancing to have more than a couple at every CP on the front lines.
So in T0, instead put the matilda II in a british heavy armor flag, let it have 6 or so.
The imbalance "if you will" will only be localized, it can only be where that flag is, and if movement is done right that flag will be something you know by name and can track its movement and plan against.

Tier 2, the tiger should exist, but the play balance would be bad if in T2 there were tigers across the entire of them map, so instead you allow the tiger to exist in tier 2 (as it should) But it only exists in the 501st Heavy Panzer, Yes it has 5 tigers, but you know where they are and where they are going, you can work to counter them, cut them off, ambush them etc

Now as tiers progress these units would of course trickle out to the garrisons in some fashion.

T0 perhaps axis could have one of the "heavy infantry" units that have Pak38's, pak38t, and 88's and a small complement of heavy support infantry, and haulers of course
or some kind of unique makeup that makes them worthy of noting their location and movement, you get the idea though.

And like i said, you do movement in a way that you can see these flags moving around the map in a realistic fashion, and you never give them enough kit to be a one man army
but set up the kit they get so it maintains that shock and awe factor.

And since they are special defeating on and routing it should be special to, could be announcements maybe web reports, 501st panzer defeated and captured in Dinant by French forces
And let those flags sit in training for a much longer time when defeated.

Something like that seems like it would be fun?

59 minutes ago, delems said:

Finally, giving squads their own little platoon flag will provide lots of incentive for squads to do their own thing and grow.

What does the flag do? Are we foreseeing squad supply?
If so what kind of supply subset? and do we lock squads to squad supply only then, and only at their flag location?
Squad flags would have to be subject to same terms of movement etc that the elite unit flags are, like time and visibility, no movement into contested.
What if a squad flag gets routed? 30 minutes prior to squad night?

Or could the Squad flag be something besides supply?

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I'm not a big fan of squad supply from the stand point of the number of squads we have in game now. According to squad tools we have 557 squads of which 87 have been active this campaign. So you want each if those squads to have supply? How do you account for the squad which has 6 members compared to those with 200? 

You say there is too much supply but you want squad based? What's to stop someone with several accounts to form several different squads to circumvent attrition ?

 

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*** I'm not a big fan of squad supply from the stand point of the number of squads we have in game now.

Are the squads evenly placed between sides?  On average, the amount of supply would even out.  There would have to be squad qualifiers to get a flag, have to think about that more, but see next answer.  So by no means would all squads have supply.

 

*** You say there is too much supply but you want squad based? What's to stop someone with several accounts to form several different squads to circumvent attrition ?

Then rats make  lot of money!  There would be a cutoff of some sorts, probably along the lines of 10 active subscribers in squad (starter or premium); then flag comes.  A five person FPA squad gets nothing, nor does a 9 person premium squad.

 

 

*** What does the flag do? Are we foreseeing squad supply?

Yes, it is a normal flag just like all the others, with the name of the squad on it, independent, no HQ etc. (though, be nice to be able to resupply it somehow)


*** If so what kind of supply subset? and do we lock squads to squad supply only then, and only at their flag location?

It would have 51 (52 when zooka arrives) troops in the flag subject to normal RDP timers.  The supply would only be usable by members in squad.  The flag is just another on the map, players are free to use any flag at anytime, just like today, except, you can't use another squads supply. (though, nice feature would be to allow permissions, say to temporarily allow another squad use or even all players - that can be controlled in game dynamically)


*** Squad flags would have to be subject to same terms of movement etc that the elite unit flags are, like time and visibility, no movement into contested.

Of course, it is just another flag on the map, subject to everything like a normal flag.

 

*** What if a squad flag gets routed? 30 minutes prior to squad night?

Then it is gone.  Would have to think about mechanics of where and when flag arrives.  My original thought was flag appears in training anytime CO on - and can be moved to any non frontline town; before CO logs off, flag is moved back to training.  Alternatively, flag could just always be on map, CO would move flag backline before logging - would be hard to send squad flag to training, unless cut off - as it would never have a bad fallback.

 

*** Or could the Squad flag be something besides supply?

No, it's not something else, it is a squad flag on map with a little supply, controlled by the squad CO (maybe XOs?)

 

Edited by delems

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I wont say i am opposed to the idea per se, but i think more deep thinking into it needs to take place.
Would need to be heavily limited, as you already agree.
Perhaps amount and tier of supply available should have some qualifying factors as well

Just an off the top of my head example

Small 6 man squad. (members inactive say 30 days, simply do not count, or are maybe auto removed)
Platoon flag for prestige mostly, it simply says WE ARE HERE, gives bragging rights and of course lets other players know here there is an organized group here.
And facilitates getting members together mission wise perhaps?
Flag also give the enemy something to say woohoo we captured So n So unit.
0 supply

30 play squad, same deal with member activity
Company flag
2 LMG
4 SMG
8 Rifles Bolt
2 Trucks
1 light AT Gun  
1 light AA gun
2 T0 AFV

100 player squad same deal with member activity, squad needs to be active active active
Battalion flag  (eligible for purchase of squad decal for small 1 time fee? viewable by all in game)
4 LMG
2 Engineers
5 SMG
16 Rifles (Tier dependant semi auto when they come into play)
4 Trucks
2 heavy ATG tier -1
2 Heavy AA tier -1
3 AFV at tier -1

250 player squad
Regimental Flag (Highest available)
and no more than like 50 units max
Well you get the idea

The squad supply could ONLY be available where the squad flag is
The squad flag would be subject to every rule a normal flag is, and can NOT be removed from the map when the CO/XO logs
The squads flag must ALWAYS be on the map and vulnerable, so you will need to withdraw it from the front when it nears the end of squad night, but the flag will never be "Safe"
This is the price you pay for prestige.

Squad must maintain 90% member activity, no special circumstances etc, this thing would be for active people only
Dont want one guy recruiting 250 trial players and then playing with his own private army.
This squad thing would be a PRIVILEGE not a RIGHT

The squads can never carry enough supply to be their own unbalancing force, they carry a few things and the rest they must work out with gen pop TOGETHER.
You want squads to do well because of the people, not because they are running around with their own entire full fledged TOE, nor do you want a group that has worked very hard for victory to suddenly get rick rolled because SupahSquad logged in and bumped their flag up and POOF insta army.
A max of 50 units showing up is not game ending.

Whether at this time squads should have any special air or naval contingent to the flag is debatable
My opinion is right now, there is no need, there are always tons of planes.

I am for throwing squads a bone and what not, but im not of for going the "Oh you are a squad, so i will make you like Hannibal"
The squad has to be great on its own merits, and the things given mostly just trinkets, units given to help the squad set up an op but not to become the unstoppable force simply by equipment.

The squad and its flag must become strong and become known and loved or feared totally on its own merits.
Remember there will also be many players who are equally or more feared/loved who will not be in a squad due to various reasons.
The squad benefits should never be enough to overpower an organized group of those non squad people.

Squads were once the backbone of the game, but it wasn't because the squads were better than everyone or because they had private stuff etc. Not the great squads,
It was because they got in there on the front lines, and rallied everyone and led them by getting in the trenches with them.

Thats kind of my off top of my head thoughts on it.
The idea has merit but the kit has to be token, the squad is part of the game world, it can't be the unbalancing factor in it
 

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57 minutes ago, Capco said:

@delems So you want a game where supply is dominated by the bigger squads? 

 

I'll pass.  

I don't think that is really what he is going for, if you give him half a chance to think through it.
I don't see him wanting to dump bunches of supply out to squads, just a few little tidbits and some prestige.

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Isn't the idea of belonging to a squad to inspire teamwork? And...if you can overstock from a rear town, isn't that the definition of teamwork. I came from a huge squad but I think incentivizing larger squads at the expense of smaller squads and lone wolves will be problematic. Add more supply to rear towns and let squads use their social skills and resources.

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On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 3:22 PM, Capco said:

@delems So you want a game where supply is dominated by the bigger squads? 

What big squads?

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13 hours ago, Baer said:

What big squads?

7th AST has between 50 - 60 active members and can have up to 30 in discord. 

Lancers and AEF and 4wing have quite a few too. Compared to smaller squads like ATeam and kh

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*** So you want a game where supply is dominated by the bigger squads? 

The squad flag has 51 troops in it; maybe 2 light ATG and AA.  That's it. (4 LMG, 5 SMG, so nine total auto weapons)

Hardly think a large squad will roll very far with just 51 troops - we can lose that in 15 min of heavy battle.

Then flag empty for 12 hours.  (though, be good if could resupply somehow)

It's a perk for squads and gives them some options.

 

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I'm rather a fan of the idea of "Regiment" flags for Squads; but they should not be designed like the current brigade flags we have in-game, nor should they be the same as the regular Brigade flags as they'll exist in 1.36. Their primary intent should be to allow Squads to use them during an op and as an added prestige factor; NOT for [effective] day-to-day campaign use. With this in mind, I had some ideas.

1) A bit more supplies for them than has been suggested.

2) Actual quantity of supplies dependent on number of active squad members. Require a minimum number of squad members before you are eligible for the minimum-supplied Regiment flag.

2) I'm assuming allowing the squads to choose the equipment that makes up their flag is a bit too much work, so the flag would be "specialized"; ie. armored, infantry, airborne, fighter wing - etc. The squad flag would have to choose an area to be specific in, sacrificing their capabilities in other fields.

3) The flag would move like regular flags, with the same speed. Could not move into a contested town.

4) The flag could only be moved by Squad officers; MAYBE, MAYBE allow all members of the Squad to get certain equipment regardless of subscription (since there wouldn't be much of it, it could be something to give F2P more taste to actually subscribe?)

5) Resupply timers for supplies lost in Regiment (squad) flags substantially higher than Garrison/Brigade supplies. Try to make it to where supplies expended in a large Squad Op on a night of the week would take at least until the same night of the next week to be fully resupplied. Can adapt this to routed Regiment flags as well, taking days or a week before it can be redeployed.

 

The goal would be to give squads something of their own to plan ops around, while also forcing them to make strategic decisions as to rather or not to expend supplies on things - since their supplies would be more precious that Garrison/Brigade supplies.

 

 

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On 1/2/2018 at 10:21 AM, blkhwk8 said:

7th AST has between 50 - 60 active members and can have up to 30 in discord. 

Lancers and AEF and 4wing have quite a few too. Compared to smaller squads like ATeam and kh

Holy! How does the Allied side ever lose with those numbers ;)

Axis squads are typically small from what I have seen over the last few years......but they can be persistent and fierce at times. lol.

S!

 

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47 minutes ago, damonkey said:

2) Actual quantity of supplies dependent on number of active squad members. Require a minimum number of squad members before you are eligible for the minimum-supplied Regiment flag.

If I understand correctly, dynamically changing the supply numbers isn't something WWIIOL is able to do currently and would require some amount (big or small) of rewriting to implement.

Especially since that number could constantly change given it depends on "active" squad members. Though, that could wrinkle might be fixed with the game counting the # of unique members online (no dummy accounts) last campaign that gets counted at the start of a new campaign.

 

This suggestion, coupled with really long resupply timers, is one of the most convincing suggestions for squad flags that won't break the game that I've heard. Well done.

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2 hours ago, Elfin said:

Holy! How does the Allied side ever lose with those numbers ;)

Axis squads are typically small from what I have seen over the last few years......but they can be persistent and fierce at times. lol.

S!

 

TZ 3 bud......;)

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On 12/15/2017 at 2:55 PM, Pittpete said:

I'll post this in here to get a few more eyes and some feedback

iBjZZYr.jpg

n a nutshell Brigades/KG's are used to speed up resupply in a frontline town. The frontline town must be an AO or a DO. They don't contain any actual supply.

Example: 10 panzers are spawned for an attack and are all destroyed. The time it would take to have those 10 panzers resupplied has decreased by half lets say. Same goes for the defenders of a frontline town with a linked Brigade/KG.

Rear FBs are opened to any frontline town with an AO/DO to allow manual overstocking from a rear linked town or if frontline town is camped.

If a town is captured then the rear town becomes the new frontline town and if it's still linked to a Brigade/KG then resupply is accelerated. The rear town doesnt automatically start with a fresh new supply list.

I'll play ball because I actually worked out something similar to this, basically a no-man's land system without supply in ANY frontline town within the current brigade paradigm making every battle a meeting/drive in battle  and minimal camping.  Of course town supply was not involved.

So what happens to the Paal KG1 if Diest is taken?  Does it sit there not giving supply advantage until its moved manually out, or does it automatically fallback out of range of the enemy frontline?

 

Interested in reading the no-man proposal if I can find it?

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KIle, i actually rethought this since the initial post**

Supply is present at every frontline town and 1 town behind.

If Diest falls then Paal's supply doesn't change. and is still on a trickle timer.

Any equipment that was spawned in Paal that was used to support Diest is gone until it is due to return.

Paal then becomes frontline and the rear town(s) has full supply.

Counter attack anyone?

 

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I may not be correct, but i was thinking that the rear rear town, when it becomes the now rear town, does not just go DING!
SuPPlY! But that it began filtering in?
So if you made an organized push and did it right, you could still punch through, but there would be resistance the entire way
and so at a point you would need to check your losses and hold up to recover them before your push drained you down below the other guys trickle.
So you would not blow through and break out as far as fast in an unchecked manner, but you could still do it.

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Frontline town in my proposal has full supply-

1 town back also has full supply.

Its not an instant DING, full supply.

If you brought up 10 tanks from the rear town, and the front town falls the rear becomes the frontline minus the 10 tanks.

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Would it be possible to create a new type of mission other than attack and defend called Resuply?

Whenever you "Resuply" something,, you are given a kind of "ticket" and that material is reserved for you during, let's say one hour. (Or could be used by squaddies too)

When you check available pool you could see:

Riflemen 46 (22)

46 is the number of riflemen available for everybody while 22 are the number of riflemen reserved by people that Resuplied them.

After this hour, the "material" is available for everybody else.

This way we:

1. encourage Resuply.

It is damm frustrating to spend half an hour driving a tank to be wasted by somebody else in a minute during the time that takes you to switch mission.

2. We solve this "dedicated squad brigade"  thing.

A squad that wants to work an AO and wants to be sure that will have enough stuff can achieve it by resuplying.

If somebody or a  squad spends time resuplying they should be able to use the material on their own.

 

Edited by piska250
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On 12/31/2017 at 1:53 AM, carlz said:

Isn't the idea of belonging to a squad to inspire teamwork? And...if you can overstock from a rear town, isn't that the definition of teamwork. I came from a huge squad but I think incentivizing larger squads at the expense of smaller squads and lone wolves will be problematic. Add more supply to rear towns and let squads use their social skills and resources.

This

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